iPhone 5 2012

[Michael]

Funny, I saw that video and it was hilarious. Though, it really puts things in perspective, which I agree with. Nevertheless, I can separate the fact that these workers are underpaid and should probably be paid more from the fact that I paid a certain amount for this phone and I expect a solid product coming out of the box.

 

[Monster]

Chain of command. Apple legally employs Foxconn to manufacture its iPhones. Foxconn legally employs its workers to do the job. Apple has no one to look at but Foxconn for these issues of already damaged products, because the consumer looks at Apple. Obviously China is in need of a revolution for their humanity laws, but that's essentially another topic. Until then all tech companies, from Microsoft to Nokia to Samsung to Amazon will continue to use them.

So when it comes to factory working conditions, Apple is more than happy to play the follower rather than the 'market leader' and that is completely fine by you?

Of course, due to the medias obsession on attempting to sabotage Apple, lemmings wouldn't think that any other company employs Foxconn. In fact, Apple was the only company that ever sent Foxconn an audit. No other company would dare do that to risk such a lucrative relationship. Apple gets all the flack for Chinese labor but they're the only ones who actually took even a remote humane measure by sending Foxconn the audit.

There is no media obsession with sabotaging Apple, fair comments and reviews are not considered as 'sabotage'. If there ever was a media campaign to tarnish Apple's image then I am 100% sure their very capable marketing team would have noticed it and have this issue resolved. Why didn't Apple monitor the factory's work place conditions more closely before the suicides of the workers? Please, Apple is not saint either. And it is a bit too much to say that Foxconn is involved in some 'very shoddy practices' just because a small portion of the phones they manufactured have some small scratches on the paint, and not because of the working environment they created for their workers.

I am not saying these things should allow to happen, but it is just one of those things that is definitely not intentional, and the defected phones are not 'so damaged' that it will prevent the phones from functioning correctly, not to those who actually wants to use the phone rather than holding it as a fashion accessory.

 

[K-A]

I fully agree that the whole scratch thing is overblown, though obviously there are real people who have had scratched phones out of the box, which is unacceptable. What's Apple supposed to do, let it happen and watch a media frenzy unfold via "Scratched iPhones!" dominating headlines? People don't seem to realize that Apple pays Foxconn to do a job, they come to terms on a specific deal, and the rest is up to Foxconn. Foxconn chooses to handle their employees in the way they do, it's not Apple's responsibility.

Why is Apple expected to "lead" or else they're worthy of being scrutinized? That's the problem, people expect the world from Apple, anything less than perfection and they start harping.... now people question the Chinese labor.... if Apple brought this business back to America, prices would go through the roof as they'd have to pass the inflated costs over to consumers, which means consumers won't buy them, and then bye bye Apple. It's a publicly held company who has a responsibility to its shareholders.... they don't have any social responsibility other than legally going about business and striving to do the best that they can to in turn make shareholders rich, just like any other company in the world. There is a huge bias when it comes to sabotaging headlines toward Apple.... proof is in the pudding, Apple gets criticized for things that every other company does. Why doesn't ANY ONE else get criticized for "Chinese Labor". Apple is the only company that sent Foxconn an audit! If anything, they should be praised above the others who've sat more silent. Apple had no obligation to send that audit, btw.

The media feed the sheep troll-baiting headlines, and the sheep are misinformed and/or dumb enough to think that Apple practically owns Foxconn. Here's a list of companies that use Foxconn. They aren't any more or less special than Apple when it comes to deserving recognition of "All things Foxconn".

Companies that use Foxconn...

Acer Inc. (Taiwan)​

Amazon.com (United States)​

Apple Inc. (United States)​

ASRock (Taiwan)​

Asus (Taiwan)​

Barnes & Noble (United States)​

Cisco (United States)​

Dell (United States)​

EVGA Corporation (United States)​

Hewlett-Packard (United States)​

Intel (United States)​

IBM (United States)​

Lenovo (China)​

Logitech (Switzerland)​

Microsoft (United States)​

MSI (Taiwan)​

Motorola (United States)​

Netgear (United States)​

Nintendo (Japan)​

Nokia (Finland)​

Panasonic (Japan)​

Philips (Netherlands)​

Samsung (South Korea)​

Sharp (Japan)​

Sony Ericsson (Japan/Sweden)​

Toshiba (Japan)​

Vizio (United States)​

 

[Monster]

I fully agree that the whole scratch thing is overblown, though obviously there are real people who have had scratched phones out of the box, which is unacceptable. What's Apple supposed to do, let it happen and watch a media frenzy unfold via "Scratched iPhones!" dominating headlines? People don't seem to realize that Apple pays Foxconn to do a job, they come to terms on a specific deal, and the rest is up to Foxconn. Foxconn chooses to handle their employees in the way they do, it's not Apple's responsibility.

It isn't Apple's responsibility but they can chose to make it their responsibility with all the billions they have. Real people won't make a big deal out of having scratches on their new phone knowing that they will get a replacement for free. There aren't any media frenzy about 'scratched iphones', well at least it isn't happening here in Australia.

Why is Apple expected to "lead" or else they're worthy of being scrutinized? That's the problem, people expect the world from Apple, anything less than perfection and they start harping.... now people question the Chinese labor.... if Apple brought this business back to America, prices would go through the roof as they'd have to pass the inflated costs over to consumers, which means consumers won't buy them, and then bye bye Apple.

Nobody expect Apple to lead but they do market themselves as an innovator. If you make such a claim then other will scrutinize it. For some, they felt Apple has changed their world and they expect it continue forever, I suppose the harshest critics are Apple's own fanatics?

if Apple brought this business back to America, prices would go through the roof as they'd have to pass the inflated costs over to consumers, which means consumers won't buy them, and then bye bye Apple.

So you are saying ultimately even Apple supporters prefer to love their money more than the company and its products? It would be interesting to test the limit of the fan's support of a company like Apple.

It's a publicly held company who has a responsibility to its shareholders.... they don't have any social responsibility other than legally going about business and striving to do the best that they can to in turn make shareholders rich, just like any other company in the world.
But Apple and its supporters like to think Apple is above and beyond every other companies and they have the power to change the world.
There is a huge bias when it comes to sabotaging headlines toward Apple.... proof is in the pudding, Apple gets criticized for things that every other company does. Why doesn't ANY ONE else get criticized for "Chinese Labor". Apple is the only company that sent Foxconn an audit! If anything, they should be praised above the others who've sat more silent. Apple had no obligation to send that audit, btw.

Because those workers who suicided were working on the iphone, ipad assembly line.

The media feed the sheep troll-baiting headlines, and the sheep are misinformed and/or dumb enough to think that Apple practically owns Foxconn. Here's a list of companies that use Foxconn. They aren't any more or less special than Apple when it comes to deserving recognition of "All things Foxconn".

It really depends on which media out lets you are getting your news from, plus this information is readily accessible.

 

[K-A]

Well, just look at that SNL spoof if you want to see how big a deal the "scratches" are being made of in the U.S. Fact is, customers find it unacceptable, and they judge Apple for it, and Apple then have to look to the responsible party, which is Foxconn.

You talking about them "making it their responsibility" is a very tricky subject. Apple doesn't have any reason to be a force to change the entire workforce laws in China. Why don't people look to Samsung to do that, or Microsoft, or any of the tons of other companies using Foxconn and Chinese labor? Why always single out Apple? Why doesn't ANYBODY else get aligned with Foxconn other than Apple? This is incredibly clear that Apple is judged to unfair measures and loves to be troll-baited to the sheeples who'll buy the headlines, by the media. Nissan's new adverts for the Altima hilariously claim to be "innovators", everybody uses that word now. Apple innovated in their business and products, they have no responsibility to innovate Chinese labor laws. What you're essentially saying is that if a company does great things, they can deserve to be criticized more harshly than companies that are more "meh". I don't think that's fair.

If Apple stops outsourcing to China, we all know what will happen. Samsung, Microsoft, Nokia, etc. will all stay with Foxconn and cheap Chinese labor, and get the benefits of lower cost production. Apple will have to charge $1,000 for an iPhone, and consumers won't support them.

First of all, all Foxconn suicides and/or attempts were working only on Apple products. And even IF those workers committed suicide on the iPad lines, then that's simply a coincidence. They work for Foxconn, if it wasn't iPads then it would have been whatever other product that they put together. It's not like Apple has a presence at Foxconn where they treat employees differently than anyone else does. They're all under the umbrella of their employer: Foxconn.

China has a huge labor injustice on their hands, but it's China's problem, or I should say it's a social problem that all of us can help out on in providing awareness.... though NOT by singling out and witch-hunting merely one company. As long as China finds it humane and legal to employ such cheap labor, companies like Microsoft, LG, Nokia, Sharp, Samsung, IBM, Nintendo, Apple, Sony, Toshiba, etc. will continue to use them. It's not like these companies make Foxconn do what they do. They simply agree to a price, a deal, and Foxconn handles the business on their end.

A companies objective is very much to do the best that they can in order to maximize profits. Think about it this way, car companies have the technology and the money to employ the most extensive crash safety measures to protect many more lives than they already do. However, due to profit margins, cost cutting, etc., they can't use 100% Ultra High Strength Steel, they all can't build roofs that will withstand 50,000 lbs of force.... not because the technology doesn't exist, but because they won't spend on it. Does that make them criminals for not spending more money to ensure the highest level of safety with money not being an object? Obviously not.

 

[NonKonnektion]

In fact, Apple was the only company that ever sent Foxconn an audit. No other company would dare do that to risk such a lucrative relationship. Apple gets all the flack for Chinese labor but they're the only ones who actually took even a remote humane measure by sending Foxconn the audit.

I don't think it works that way. Foxconn would have upped their manufacturing capability simply to cope with demands of the massive market share that Apple has. There would be very little Foxconn could reasonably refuse to do with regard to requests that Apple have made of them, including an audit focusing on labour conditions.

 

[Michael]

Gentlemen, I just want to remind all of you that we are getting close to that line of breaching the forum rules. So, just as a reminder, please stay as close as possible to the issue at hand here.

 

[K-A]

I don't think it works that way. Foxconn would have upped their manufacturing capability simply to cope with demands of the massive market share that Apple has. There would be very little Foxconn could reasonably refuse to do with regard to requests that Apple have made of them, including an audit focusing on labour conditions.

Then in that case that further proves that Apple has gone to more humane measures than Samsung, Nokia, Microsoft, Sharp, LG, etc. etc. etc. etc. who all as far as I know haven't send Foxconn an audit, still. Apple used their massive presence to do something right. It makes it further unfair that the sabotage-friendly media likes to point the spotlight solely on them as if they own Foxconn or something.

 

[NonKonnektion]

Then in that case that further proves that Apple has gone to more humane measures than Samsung, Nokia, Microsoft, Sharp, LG, etc. etc. etc. etc. who all as far as I know haven't send Foxconn an audit, still. Apple used their massive presence to do something right. It makes it further unfair that the sabotage-friendly media likes to point the spotlight solely on them as if they own Foxconn or something.

No, it doesn't mean Apple is more humane. It simply means Apple was publicly motivated to respond to the unfortunate event(s) which took place to protect their brand reputation and their ability to generate profits. Those events happened to be related to an assembly line manufacturing their products, regardless of who owns or utilises the company which is responsible for that assembly line. The average consumer does not make the connection, nor do they care.

It's kind of like if somebody came out and posted a news story saying K-A talks a lot of unfounded nonsense. You would be motivated to justify why you are in the right, for fear of being perceived wrong.

 

[Monster]

Then in that case that further proves that Apple has gone to more humane measures than Samsung, Nokia, Microsoft, Sharp, LG, etc. etc. etc. etc. who all as far as I know haven't send Foxconn an audit, still. Apple used their massive presence to do something right. It makes it further unfair that the sabotage-friendly media likes to point the spotlight solely on them as if they own Foxconn or something.

I am impressed by the new and creative posts you can come up with to gloss over Apple's short comings. Fact is, these unfortunate events only happened on the iphone/ipad assembly line, it did not happen anywhere else. It is pointless for you involve other companies in your post, and accuse the media as 'sabotage-friendly' because they reported on the actual events. They 'spotlight' solely on Apple because no other partners of Foxconn had problems with their workforce. I do not recall reading or hearing any news that implies Apple owns Foxconn, and I do not think your personal interpretation of the media information can be used as a valid fact to support your view. It is interesting to see how you blamed BMW for cutting cost by using a cheap supplier, yet you exonerate Apple for using the same business practice.

I hate to do this but Michael is correct, we are drifting too close to breaching the forum rules, please stay away from commenting on any political topics and social issues.

 

[K-A]

You guys are reaching. The fact that it happened on the iPad assembly line has NOTHING to do with Apple any more than it does anyone else who employs and enables Foxconn. Like I said, a classic witch-hunt. Monster, you have it mixed up regarding the BMW example. BMW is blamed for the finished product, not for what conditions the 3rd party workforce is under. Just like Apple is blamed for Foxconn's handling of the iPhone (scratches). I'm being 100% on the same page regarding each subject.

The media IS baiting the masses with headlines related to Foxconn, because if you listen to the media, you'd think that ONLY Apple operates within Foxconn.

Also, Monster, what facts do you have that suggest the only suicides happened on Apple lines? As far as I know, there's no confirmation of that aside from the media assuming and feeding it.

The suicides are a tragedy, however the finger pointing needs to be in the right places. [I Edited to avoid "Political talking"].... the only ones capable of regulating this, charging companies more if they need to, etc. Did you know that the rate of suicides at Foxconn is significantly less than in the "real world China", when gauging per 100,000 persons?

Some info here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

 

[K-A]

No, it doesn't mean Apple is more humane. It simply means Apple was publicly motivated to respond to the unfortunate event(s) which took place to protect their brand reputation and their ability to generate profits. Those events happened to be related to an assembly line manufacturing their products, regardless of who owns or utilises the company which is responsible for that assembly line. The average consumer does not make the connection, nor do they care.

It's kind of like if somebody came out and posted a news story saying K-A talks a lot of unfounded nonsense. You would be motivated to justify why you are in the right, for fear of being perceived wrong.

And what have you "founded"? Apple had two choices, acknowledge the incident and send an audit, or remain hush about it. They chose to acknowledge and send an audit.

 

[NonKonnektion]

Did you know that the rate of suicides at Foxconn is significantly less than in the "real world China", when gauging per 100,000 persons?

Are you for real? Comparing the suicide rate at a company of 1.2 Million employees to that of a country of 1.35 Billion people is not only statistically insignificant, it's a tasteless statement.

 

[Monster]

You guys are reaching. The fact that it happened on the iPad assembly line has NOTHING to do with Apple any more than it does anyone else who employs and enables Foxconn. Like I said, a classic witch-hunt.

How is it a witch hunt when there were no such incidents on other assembly lines?

Monster, you have it mixed up regarding the BMW example. BMW is blamed for the finished product, not for what conditions the 3rd party workforce is under. Just like Apple is blamed for Foxconn's handling of the iPhone (scratches). I'm being 100% on the same page regarding each subject.

Ok.

The media IS baiting the masses with headlines related to Foxconn, because if you listen to the media, you'd think that ONLY Apple operates within Foxconn.

I have absolutely no idea what you read or listen to but there are always the creditable and respectable news reports and there are the ill informed, sensationalized garbage. People who have a keen interest in technology read or listen to more than just the mass media reports. You always always have the ignorant ones who believe whatever that is said to them, and that is how the world works.

Also, Monster, what facts do you have that suggest the only suicides happened on Apple lines? As far as I know, there's no confirmation of that aside from the media assuming and feeding it.

Really? Fact is, these unfortunate incidents happened on the Apple line and the media reported on these incidents. Ever since then Foxconn were placed under intense media spot light and so far no more major incidents have been reported or discovered. You can assume whatever the hell you want, nobody can stop you.

Did you know that the rate of suicides at Foxconn is significantly less than in the "real world China", when gauging per 100,000 persons?
Some info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

In all my years on this forum, this is the most disgusting, offensive and insensitive remark I have ever read, normally I will remove it straight away but I will keep this as an example for others to never, ever sink to this low.

I have allowed this Foxconn discussion to go on for long enough, it is quite clear that things are going to get uglier and uglier, I am going to put a stop to this, no more mentioning of Foxconn, labor laws. etc, those who tried will have their post removed without notice, as per forum guideline. Time to get back on topic.

 

[HighestOfHigh]

iPhone 5 pushes Verizon to 3.1M iPhones sold in Q3​

​

Verizon sold 3.1 million iPhones in the third quarter, thanks in part to the launch of the iPhone 5. The carrier's chief financial officer, Fran Shammo, said that 21 percent of its iPhones were enabled with a 4G LTE connection, indicating that 651,000 iPhone 5 units were sold. The iPhone 5 hit the market with a week left in the quarter, and sales are expected to ramp up in the fourth quarter. It remains to be seen how many iPhones its competitors, AT&T and Sprint Nextel, sold in the period, with both companies set to report their results next week. But it's widely expected that both similarly saw a jump in sales due to the release of the new model. Just how big of a jump is uncertain because of supply constraints that have limited just how many iPhone units have been sold. Several weeks after the launch, there remains a long wait for an iPhone when ordering from Apple's Web site. "The iPhone 5 had supply constraints," Shammo said during a conference call with investors today. "I'm not sure where it stands with the supply constraints."

He noted that Verizon had seen a pick-up in sales of the discounted iPhone 4 and iPhone 4S, which drew in new customers who were intimidated by the higher price of the iPhone 5. "The iPhone 4 and iPhone 4S should continue to be good drivers in the fourth quarter given their recent reduced pricing and some potential continued supply issues related to the iPhone5, so their contribution to the total iPhone activations should not be underestimated," said Julien Blin, an analyst at Infonetics. Shammo said he expects sales of the iPhone to accelerate in the fourth quarter though.
Verizon sold 3.4 million Android smartphones in the period, underscoring the carrier's ability to diversify its portfolio of mobile products. Beyond the iPhone, Verizon boasts other successful phones such as the Galaxy S III from Samsung. About 3 million of those devices were 4G devices. About a third of activations came from new customers, helping to drive the 1.5 million net new contract subscribers it added in the period. In the second quarter, Verizon sold 2.7 million iPhones and 2.9 million Android phones.

- http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57534906-37/iphone-5-pushes-verizon-to-3.1m-iphones-sold-in-q3/

 

[K-A]

Damn, that pic really makes the 5 look much more usably bigger. The article is right in that the 4S is probably gonna be the secret weapon driver going forward. Such a good entry price, and the 4 being free is an absolute knockout. The 4/4S with that all glass case are just beautiful devices and are steals at those prices. Couldn't be happier with my 4S.

I do use my phone with one hand a lot, and even with big hands, find that the screen size is about perfect to maneuver it enough to be able to do everything with one hand if needed (even a bit too big if anything), but I wouldn't mind the extra slight real estate of the 5 in some circumstances. I think as a functional tool, the 4 chassis is a perfect "universal" size.

 

[K-A]

How is it a witch hunt when there were no such incidents on other assembly lines?

Ok.

I have absolutely no idea what you read or listen to but there are always the creditable and respectable news reports and there are the ill informed, sensationalized garbage. People who have a keen interest in technology read or listen to more than just the mass media reports. You always always have the ignorant ones who believe whatever that is said to them, and that is how the world works.


Really? Fact is, these unfortunate incidents happened on the Apple line and the media reported on these incidents. Ever since then Foxconn were placed under intense media spot light and so far no more major incidents have been reported or discovered. You can assume whatever the hell you want, nobody can stop you.


In all my years on this forum, this is the most disgusting, offensive and insensitive remark I have ever read, normally I will remove it straight away but I will keep this as an example for others to never, ever sink to this low.

I have allowed this Foxconn discussion to go on for long enough, it is quite clear that things are going to get uglier and uglier, I am going to put a stop to this, no more mentioning of Foxconn, labor laws. etc, those who tried will have their post removed without notice, as per forum guideline. Time to get back on topic.

You know what? If you're gonna use your Mod powers to remove my response to aid that knee-jerk-dly reactive, selectively misinterpreting line to conclude your post, then you're manipulating this to look slanderous upon "me". Please, don't let your Mod powers allow you to paint this picture in a false way.

That figure I used which is a fact, is something reported in most ALL articles about this subject, and IS significant because it gives a wide perspective. It is RIDICULOUS that even while debating such a touchy subject like this, you to feel that I had an ulterior motive by saying something related and general such as that, as if its intent was to sound as if what happens at FOXCONN is "okay".

Ban me if you want, but I won't let that manipulative agenda to a simple FACT reported by professional journalists galore, that I quoted sit there without my response to it:

HERE IT IS IN AN ARTICLE FROM "WIRED" BEING REPORTED IN THE SAME WAY I WAS "REPORTING IT", TO PAINT A BROAD PICTURE, ALLOWING ONE TO SEE HOW DEEP THESE PROBLEMS TRULY RUN AND ALLOWING THEM TO DRAW WIDER CONCLUSIONS AS TO WHERE FINGER POINTING SHOULD BE DIRECTED:

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/02/ff_joelinchina/2/'

"A report by the UK’s The Mail on Sunday in 2006 accused Foxconn of forcing workers to pull long shifts to meet unrealistic quotas. That report prompted an audit from Apple, which found “no instances of forced overtime” but noted that “employees worked longer hours than permitted by our Code of Conduct”—over 60 hours a week. (Apple has performed such audits every year since.)

Last April, the Chinese newspaper Southern Weekend sent a young reporter into Foxconn to work undercover for a month; he returned with bleak tales of hopelessness and “voluntary overtime affidavits.” An October report by Students and Scholars Against Corporate Misbehavior, a Hong Kong-based labor rights group, found that workers at Foxconn’s Shenzhen plant worked 13 days straight, 12 hours a day, to produce the first generation of Apple’s iPad. Foxconn has denied the reports and said it complies with all Chinese regulations regarding working hours and overtime.

That 17 people have committed suicide at Foxconn is a tragedy. But in fact, the suicide rate at Foxconn’s Shenzhen plant remains below national averages for both rural and urban China, a bleak but unassailable fact that does much to exonerate the conditions at Foxconn and absolutely nothing to bring those 17 people back.

But the work itself isn’t inhumane—unless you consider a repetitive, exhausting, and alienating workplace over which you have no influence or authority to be inhumane. And that would pretty much describe every single manufacturing or burger-flipping job ever."



And my previous response:

Really?! That's a statistical fact which I grabbed out of the many of the numerous media reports of which tell you that all of these incidents happened on the Apple lines (that you recite). You think I made that up? Are you purposefully skewing it to appear as if I'm making it sound "okay"? Is it okay for you to pick and choose what information you like to state as facts from said media outlets? This is a touchy subject, don't cry foul when we get into the thick of it. If you want to lambast me for quoting that figure, then expect me to explain what significance it has. Don't sensitively misinterpret it to fit your argument when it's a widely reported and a quoted figure meant to convey something different than what you seem to imply it comes off as to you. If you're gonna leave that up with your offensive impressions of what you believe it means following it, you need to allow a clarification. I wouldn't assume anyone would stoop so low as to interpret it that way and assume I picked it out of thin air.
The point of that figure in itself is that this is a problem WITHIN CHINA! This isn't ONLY Apple's issue! Apple is one of many ENABLERS who's taking advantage of this cheap labor system.... one of MANY enablers. You guys are buying into the media frenzy by pointing fingers at the wrong people (or if you point it at Apple, then great, just remember to point it at every other company who supports and enables the same Chinese labor practices as well. Better yet, point it at those companies who didn't send an audit along with Apple to Foxconn. If Apple leaves China, then they'll have to jack up prices, and we the consumers would continue to buy from their competitors who will be cheaper due to using Chinese Labor, forcing Apple inevitably out of business). Why not point the fingers where it matters, at those who can regulate it within the Country itself? Unless you can tell me that Apple employees handle their own lines, which isn't true (Foxconn employees do), then you're simply on a witch-hunt. One life saved is more important than millions of phones and Tables from any company, but what I don't support or stand for is a sensationalist frenzy going after one player who isn't doing anything worse than the thousands of other players supporting the same system. That's called a "witch hunt".

 

[deity]

Does anyone here who is bashing Apple...

have any inside information that Apple intentionally took a risk to trust the Foxconn admin to do what they were supposed to do to cut costs? If not, that's too many assumptions for my liking.

The iPhone 5/iPads were made during the economic crisis, so I'm sure Apple saved a few USD here and there to be on the safe side. I can't believe that Apple would do this intentionally.




In all seriousness, a few things.
No one here on this forum is able to test ANY corporation on whether or not they should bring businesses back into America. That is, unless you want to see an economy crash. To be fair, let's just say no companies are able to take advantage of offshore labor. Everything will LITERALLY shoot up by 300%, at least. The iPhone would start at 1500$, the chair you are sitting on 500$, your computer 2500$, your shoes $200 a pair. Of course I don't exactly know if this is correct, but I don't think it's fair, nor do we deserve to be critical of Apple/any company who outsources because we are benefited from MUCH MUCH lower prices because of the labor costs in China. It's a test of humanity, not a test of Apple Fanboys, if we are to take all labor from China.

 

[Monster]

You know what? If you're gonna use your Mod powers to remove my response to aid that knee-jerk-dly reactive, selectively misinterpreting line to conclude your post, then you're manipulating this to look slanderous upon "me". Please, don't let your Mod powers allow you to paint this picture in a false way.

There is no mod powers, or manipulation. We all know the forum guidelines, and the boundaries of the discussions. Someone has to keep things in line. I am all for open and fair discussions but when you are so determined to label the "media" as the vicious anti Apple sabotage brigade then it became extremely difficult to maintain a discussion. That was not a knee jerk-dly response either, I have read your post before and only respond to it 24 hours later, there is also no selective misinterpretation of your post, I simply replied to what you have written. If you feel that way then perhaps you should have provided more information like you have done afterwards.

That figure I used which is a fact, is something reported in most ALL articles about this subject, and IS significant because it gives a wide perspective. It is RIDICULOUS that even while debating such a touchy subject like this, you to feel that I had an ulterior motive by saying something related and general such as that, as if its intent was to sound as if what happens at FOXCONN is "okay".

Ban me if you want, but I won't let that manipulative agenda to a simple FACT reported by professional journalists galore, that I quoted sit there without my response to it:

You could have just quoted the article before, it isn't that difficult to do so. It shouldn't even be brought up in the first place, and for the record, you were first to accuse Foxxconn for conducting 'shoddy practices' but for the wrong reason. Then you went on about Chinese labor law, and how Apple is just doing what everyone else is doing.

Really?! That's a statistical fact which I grabbed out of the many of the numerous media reports of which tell you that all of these incidents happened on the Apple lines (that you recite). You think I made that up? Are you purposefully skewing it to appear as if I'm making it sound "okay"?

You can always quote the source of the media reports, with link, it isn't difficult and it will made your point clearer.

Is it okay for you to pick and choose what information you like to state as facts from said media outlets?

Did I ever do that at all? I don't see you posting any non favorable Apple news on this thread.

This is a touchy subject, don't cry foul when we get into the thick of it. If you want to lambast me for quoting that figure, then expect me to explain what significance it has. Don't sensitively misinterpret it to fit your argument when it's a widely reported and a quoted figure meant to convey something different than what you seem to imply it comes off as to you. If you're gonna leave that up with your offensive impressions of what you believe it means following it, you need to allow a clarification. I wouldn't assume anyone would stoop so low as to interpret it that way and assume I picked it out of thin air.

I simply replied to the section of your response which I have quoted. If it is widely reported and quoted figure then well quote it from the original source of the article.

The point of that figure in itself is that this is a problem WITHIN CHINA! This isn't ONLY Apple's issue! Apple is one of many ENABLERS who's taking advantage of this cheap labor system.... one of MANY enablers.

Apple can make more of a difference, even if it has no responsibilities to do so. That was our point.

You guys are buying into the media frenzy by pointing fingers at the wrong people (or if you point it at Apple, then great, just remember to point it at every other company who supports and enables the same Chinese labor practices as well. Better yet, point it at those companies who didn't send an audit along with Apple to Foxconn.

They don't have to because other companies did not have such incidents on their production line, plus Apple is most likely the largest most influential client to Foxconn.

If Apple leaves China, then they'll have to jack up prices, and we the consumers would continue to buy from their competitors who will be cheaper due to using Chinese Labor, forcing Apple inevitably out of business).

Or will the "Brand halo, cachet, quality, and definitely the hardware materials" persuade their loyal supporters to fork out even more.

Why not point the fingers where it matters, at those who can regulate it within the Country itself? Unless you can tell me that Apple employees handle their own lines, which isn't true (Foxconn employees do), then you're simply on a witch-hunt. One life saved is more important than millions of phones and Tables from any company, but what I don't support or stand for is a sensationalist frenzy going after one player who isn't doing anything worse than the thousands of other players supporting the same system. That's called a "witch hunt".

Political content not allowed. Like it or not, these incidents involved Apple and Foxconn, and not their other clients, thus there is no witch hunt. What we are saying is that Apple could do better and set an example like they claimed to have with their products.

I will repeat myself I am all for fair and open discussions, every member has the opportunity to do whatever they want within the boundaries of the guidelines. If you are still not satisfied you can raise this issue with the other moderators or continue this discussion via the PM system.

 

[K-A]

Well, I guess I didn't feel the need to quote the article regarding that statistical fact and explain how even in its twisted way (this whole topic is twisted, not because we want it to be, because it is inherently in its very nature, however it's a fact of reality, and the subject at hand is to see where fingers should be pointed, if anywhere, and to protect certain sources via getting fair treatment by not recklessly pointing the fingers at them if they are doing nothing wrong nor anything worse than what anybody else is), it is a relevant figure to consider when it comes to the subject at hand [avoiding spelling it out due to "Political connotations"]. Suicide is a very close subject to me as I have dealt with it on an extremely personal basis a multitude of times through the closest person(s) in the world to me. It is ugly, gut wrenching, and if you think it's horrible wait until you see it in the eyes of someone you love more than anything. I am not in the least bit insensitive to the subject, however know that when discussing a subject like this, you either have to get deal with the heat in the kitchen or get out.

Perhaps it was simply a misunderstanding but I definitely am not quoting it to justify anything. When it comes to any subject, no matter how unfortunate and stomach turning it can be, it's good to know the entire scope behind the situation, to avoid blaming the wrong people.

The questions that should be asked are: Is this Foxconn's fault? Is Foxconn even doing anything wrong? Some people have said that Foxconn workers have it better than many laborers in China (which is why you see that suicide figure quoted in some articles), is this true? Is this simply an issue of the dynamics behind the nature of [avoiding spelling it out due to "Political connotations"]?

Now, then you get into the companies that outsource to Foxconn. If Foxconn is following Chinese laws, and China is a Country that has its culture of labor standards and laws, then are companies wrong to utilize that? After all, companies have a responsibility to shareholders, and consumers, which means profit margins AND reasonable prices that are competitive with their competition. You can't expect Apple or anyone to take a gamble that their customers will pay enormously more than competitors products because they "bring the jobs back home". Fact is, if Apple ditched Foxconn, then you'll still support Samsung who uses Chinese labor, your friend will support Nokia who uses Chinese labor, others will support Microsoft who uses Chinese labor, LG, Sharp, etc. etc. If the consumer wants that quality at that price, then there's only one way to get it.

You have to think of it in Apple's shoes. Apple pays Foxconn to do a job, the same job that every other Tech company in the world pays Foxconn to do. Apple's popularity allows them to give Foxconn even more money than anyone else does. Then, it's revealed that FOXCONN has employees who are doing these things to themselves we hear about in the press, purportedly on "Apple lines". Apple is livid at being attached to this horrible PR and incident that THEY HAD NO CONTROL OVER. They have two options: Leave Foxconn and watch as their competitors stay with Foxconn and crush Apple in future sales due to better priced products, or send Foxconn audits every month to do their best to ensure conditions are appropriate to Chinese laws and standards. Based on the information available to us, that's how I see it.