7 Series (G11) [Spy shots] BMW 7er (G11) Spy Pics & Info

[Sunny]

The Bangle era designs in my opinion have stood the passage of time, the Z4 , E60 5er and E63 6er still look modern and of this age.

You know what else still looks better today - E9, E30, E34, E38, E39, E46!

Well of course cars had character before Bangle, but he sure did change the whole industry.

I am torn about Bangle, he was probably good for the industry in large, but I just wish he worked at some other company, like Hyundai or something instead of butchering my beloved old school BMW designs. But that is the funny thing, if he worked for a Hyundai, he would have been probably laughed off the stage. BMW had a lot of (fan) capital and he spend all of that and more!

ps. @Carmaker1, love your posts.

 

[Rainer271]

@Carmaker1, love your posts.

Agree.

 

[Rolf]

Or Mercedes did something wrong.



People don't buy cars based entirely on design. You're attributing BMW's ascension to No.1 purely on the design, when it could have been DESPITE the design.

Totally agree with your statement, at that time late 90's especially were the dark days of Mercedes design and engineering. It started with the W210 E-class which was heavily monitored and implemented to reduce production costs and as a result the quality and reliability of this and later Mercedes models suffered hugely compared to the highly acclaimed previous models W124 especially which had bank vault like solid build quality and incredible reliability. This was a huge factor in my opinion that made Mercedes lose customers and possibly move over to the then improving Audi and BMW models which had a big leap in build quality especially the interiors and improved looks compared to their predecessors.

The BMW designs post 2000 were highly controversial and not universally accepted so I don't believe this caused them to rise up to the number 1 spot on design alone. Most journalists and I am sure a lot of the public, if could vote which is the better car (in looks and driving abilities) between the E39 and E60 5 series would choose the E39.

 

[klier]

Most journalists and I am sure a lot of the public, if could vote which is the better car (in looks and driving abilities) between the E39 and E60 5 series would choose the E39.

There is absolutely no way. E60 is miles ahead for the bolded. E60 even is ahead of the F10 in a lot of dynamic aspects, steering feel etc.

You know what else still looks better today - E9, E30, E34, E38, E39, E46!

I personally love each and every car you mentioned, but there is no denying that they all look rather old school now, if anything for the way they are put together and how they all lack those plastic fronts with integrated bumper that every car nowadays has.
The E60 could have been made new today if they upgraded the lighting tech.

 

[Rolf]

There is absolutely no way. E60 is miles ahead for the bolded. E60 even is ahead of the F10 in a lot of dynamic aspects, steering feel etc.

Ok I haven't personally driven these cars to compare but I remember when the E60 first came out the motoring press said it didn't ride as well (much harder ride) and possess the same steering feel and weighting (due to the adaption of the option active steering) than the E39.

I personally like both models, the E60 still appears very modern, the interior design especially (except maybe the dated graphics of that I-drive system).

Ok back to the G11 i hope that some technical info on the car will be leaked it would be such an interesting read!

 

[klier]

Yeah there might have been some issues for some with the first generation of run flat tires, among small other things, but overall the E39 appears to be made out of wood compared to an E60

 

[chonkoa]

Take a look at the evolution of the 5 series as an example, which car looks out of context/different? It is the E60.

Need we check the definition of evolution.....

 

[Carmaker1]

Guys, we really have to get back to the G11 now.

I know, but the news end of things is becoming so dry, especially after that unprecedented leak. One does want to beat the W222 thread count, right?

Yes this is correct. This was where E60 was heading with the heavier rear trunk aperture from the E65. Early proposals for the E90 had something similar. I remember the final proposals for the E60 and why this one was chosen.
This one stood out more amongst the others which were more like progressive E39s but against the above proposal they were mundane and just blended in to the background.
The above just stood out. It was the perfect choice. Sadly its designer died of Leukaemia before the car was frozen for production and David never got to see the final production model.

Thank you so much for answering my question, I really appreciate it. However, Davide Arcangeli did not die in 2000 if I remember, but perhaps in November 2004 (correct me if I am wrong). Did his leukemia cause a form of blindness and perhaps that is why? I understand that E60 development definitely would've been closed off from a great deal of personnel, that Arcangeli never got to see the final car in metal for that reason. I remember AvD barely seeing the E64 cabriolet "in metal" for the first time at the (January) 2004 NAIAS, as I'm sure him moving to Designworks California in 2001 greatly affected that too.

There was a lot going in with that period , we had the Rover millstone , MINI was progressing but we were pushing a lot of interesting ideas as you can see from my marketing notes. All those missing numbers for project codes are filled it just that many do not see the light of day but they do exist. I will not give the game away but in 2016 and the 100th anniversary you will see some things although that are old have never seen the light of day outside Munich and the gates of BMW. As you can see FWD was never new it has just been made a reality.

E40 Vier+Sechs K-Nachfolger (Projekt) Prototyp

E41 noch nicht bekannt Prototyp

E42 Vierzylinder kleiner 3er mit Frontantrieb Prototyp

E43 noch nicht bekannt Prototyp

E44 Sechszylinder BMW-Van-Projekt Prototyp

E45 noch nicht bekannt Prototyp

E46/2 Vier+Sechs 3er-Coupé Serie 3/99-

E46/2S Sechszylinder M3-Coupé Serie 04/00

E46/2C Vier+Sechs viersitziges Cabriolet Serie 3/00-

E46/2CS Sechszylinder M3-Cabriolet Serie 2001

E46/3 Vier+Sechs 3er-Touring Serie 9/99-

E46/4 Vier+Sechs K-Nachfolger für E36/4 Serie 4/98 -

E46/5 Vier+Sechs 3-türiger Compact Serie ab 10/01

E46/5-S Vierzylinder Z2-Coupé ? 2002

E47 noch nicht bekannt Prototyp

E48 Vier+Sechs Frontantrieb-3er, kleiner Prototyp Rover?

E49 Vier+Sechs Frontantrieb-3er, größer Prototyp Rover?




E50-E59.

M-Code MotortypFahrzeugbeschreibungEntwicklungsstufe Zeitraum

E50 Vierzylinder Nachfolger für Mini Prototyp Rover

E51 Zwölfzylinder Exclusives V12-Coupé Prototyp gestoppt

E52 Achtzylinder Aluminium-Roadster/Coupé(Z8) Serie 2000

E53 Sechs+Acht Geländewagen SAV (X5) Serie 1999

E53S Zwölfzylinder X5 mit McLaren-Motor Prototyp 2000

E54 noch nicht bekannt Prototyp

E55 Achtzylinder langer X5-SAV Prototyp 2000

E56 Vier+Sechs Frontantrieb-Plattform Prototyp 2006

E57 noch nicht bekannt Prototyp

E58 noch nicht bekannt Prototyp

E59 Sechs+Acht 6er-Coupé Prototyp

E59/2 Sechs+Acht 6er-Cabriolet Prototyp

WOW, that's just amazing. I knew there was something off with a huge gap between E53 and E60. BMW truly does not just skip through chassis codes, like I almost once thought. I figure on another end, how MB skipped from W126 to W140 to W220, yet retain 221, 222 in the present. Seems like there was a pre-E63 proposal sometime in the mid-1990s, judging by E59 (might be wrong).

I do not have personal images no but I do remember the early interpretations which bar some details were left fairly intact but when brought into realistic situations the design was tweaked extensively to problem solve these issues.
This is very much true today. As designers get the brief and then they start to work on sketches at this point you are thinking about the visuals where engineering are developing the other aspects. Its once these specifications are known that what looks good on paper does not translate well to the engineering specification.

E65 has similar issues that had to be addressed by engineering and crash safety and legislation.
The front of the car was not as bulky and was more raked rear wards , the headlights were the same but because of the raked look of the front they were really pushed back into the metal. If you look at the E65 and the headlight base cut-outs you can see evidence of this raked appearance before it was tightened up.

The rear answers a question we answered recently with the Vision Future Luxury and a Peugeot of how to solve an issue that designers from other companies can address the issue with the same solution but then be accused of imitating each other when they neither had any knowledge of what each was doing.
E65 had an original trunk lid but the rear of the car was initially interpreted in the same way Volvo solved that issue with the step that defined the upper look of the car. A company like BMW could not do that because at the time everybody copied us and we had to remain original. The bootlid was born from trying to solve a design issue and address an increase in luggage capacity. Original ideas had E65 with a very sleek roofline that did make production but again packaging increased the height of the car so you have a rounded roofline and flat almost uncharacteristic body panels with no surface treatment bar an upper character line.

The E65 was conceived on the back of the then current Mercedes-Benz S-Klasse W140 which was much larger than the previous generation. This was the engineering specification to match the S-Klasse in terms of dimensions and packaging especially when at that time the car was to be a techno tour de force but needed that size to appeal to a growing market.

That's what I remember when I had seen that and came to the realization that the E65 wasn't meant to look that way. Unfortunately I didn't keep that photo and like a beautiful MB Geländewagen successor W163 proposal (in dark blue w/V-Class cues) from 1993 I also lost, it is probably gone forever.

I know that when E65 development began in 1996 (design in 1997), the last facelift to the W140 had just been introduced. However, the W220 was already in the prototype stage and essentially a response to the sleek E38. I would assume even by the time the first full-size clay exteriors of the E65 were built in 1998, that the W220 had been leaked or even unveiled via press release.

Why would BMW want to be following after a heavily lambasted competitor that was soon on its way out? Asian, Eastern European, and US customers perhaps? Much of Asia, Central and Eastern Europe adored the W140, unlike Northern/Western Europe. Every mid-1990s redesign of Japanese luxury sedans copied that look (1996 Acura 3.5RL, 1996/97 Infiniti Q45, 1995 & 1998 Lexus LS400)

(1996-December 1997 Auto Bild W220 spy shots)

I wonder if the Maybach concept showing at the 1997 Tokyo Motor Show affected decision making on the E65's design process, as it would've been earlier enough to do so? Even before the RR purchase. Just as the X222 with the G12/9er/Vision Future Luxury, despite the existence of both the RR Ghost and Phantom. The E66/67 in Individual-High Security form was a very modern and luxurious limousine. It definitely wasn't a Maybach, but it was definitely something for its time (our E66 was nothing like that).

Totally agree with your statement, at that time late 90's especially were the dark days of Mercedes design and engineering. It started with the W210 E-class which was heavily monitored and implemented to reduce production costs and as a result the quality and reliability of this and later Mercedes models suffered hugely compared to the highly acclaimed previous models W124 especially which had bank vault like solid build quality and incredible reliability. This was a huge factor in my opinion that made Mercedes lose customers and possibly move over to the then improving Audi and BMW models which had a big leap in build quality especially the interiors and improved looks compared to their predecessors.

The BMW designs post 2000 were highly controversial and not universally accepted so I don't believe this caused them to rise up to the number 1 spot on design alone. Most journalists and I am sure a lot of the public, if could vote which is the better car (in looks and driving abilities) between the E39 and E60 5 series would choose the E39.

People complain about the W202 C-Class, but that one was developed (from October 1986; 1990 sign-off) mostly with genuine MB standards. It wasn't until 1991 when McKinsey & Co came after the W140 cost overrun fiasco and instituted big cost reductions (targeted through 1995), it screwed up everything. The C-Class is what I'd call half-and-half on that front, while the W210 was mostly affected.

Not sure if the W124 second facelift launched in 1993 (likely signed off in 1991) was also affected. Interestingly, the Wolfgang Bernhard joined McKinsey in 1990 and then joined MB in 1992! That's how close McKinsey & Co became with Daimler-Benz! I wonder how involved he was in the quality downfall during that period?

BMW sales likely went up because of more attractive leasing offers and easy credit back then. It isn't entirely responsible, but definitely accounts for plenty of BMW success in the US back then. Some say that (leasing dominance) irritated executive personnel back in Munich.

 

[hoffmeister_fan]

Don't know if it's a good idea to continue this topic, since it's the G11 thread, but what the hell...this is an enjoyable discussion...

(I feel like there's a BMW design thread floating around these forums...)

You know what else still looks better today - E9, E30, E34, E38, E39, E46!




I am torn about Bangle, he was probably good for the industry in large, but I just wish he worked at some other company, like Hyundai or something instead of butchering my beloved old school BMW designs. But that is the funny thing, if he worked for a Hyundai, he would have been probably laughed off the stage. BMW had a lot of (fan) capital and he spend all of that and more!

ps. @Carmaker1, love your posts.

I think Sunny's sentiments very much mirror my own because I vacillate whether Bangle was good or bad for BMW.

I very much am fond of the so-called "pre-Bangle" cars. They are what got me into BMW. However, I think it would be difficult to say they would have enjoyed the same success if they continued that path. BMW and, to an extent, the car industry needed a kick to the nuts, and BMW realized that. Bangle merely "nurtured" (that's not the right word...brain fart) that idea. And I think BMW, with its more progressive philosphy and brand equity, was one of the few brands to pull that off and come out relatively unscathed. They needed to make a bigger statement otherwise they would have blended into the background.

So thus began their revolution. Looking back at it, I think it was a good and somewhat necesseary idea, but the execution was, in some ways, was half-arsed. We always credit Bangle for unilaterally "messing" with BMW's design, but it wouldn't have happen without the Board's approval. They probably realized that things needed to change otherwise, they would fall into complacency and possibly, in the end, become a subsidiary of another company or possibly become non-existent. But as the criticism started to mount from the 7er, I feel the Board started to draw back its support somewhat...for example, that vast expanse of black plastic that was the 5er dash (i.e. half-assed execution...the transition from the E65's interior to the E60 is uncharacteristically significant). Also, introducing a new (cumbersome) interface with a polarizing design may not have been the greatest idea.

Or maybe, that may have been the only way to do it. It's akin to ripping off a bandage rather than slowly pulling it off. They figure if you are going to have all these features, you need a new interface. So might as well introduce a new design language and a new control system, and let chips fall where they may rather than drag out all these changes over the course of five or so years and possibly lose customers along the way.

But I am rambling at this point...carry on.

 

[Rolf]

I know that when E65 development began in 1996 (design in 1997), the last facelift to the W140 had just been introduced. However, the W220 was already in the prototype stage and essentially a response to the sleek E38. I would assume even by the time the first full-size clay exteriors of the E65 were built in 1998, that the W220 had been leaked or even unveiled via press release. Why would BMW want to be following after a heavily lambasted competitor that was soon on its way out? Asian, Eastern European, and US customers perhaps? Much of Asia, Central and Eastern Europe adored the W140, unlike Northern/Western Europe. Every mid-1990s redesign of Japanese luxury sedans copied that look (1996 Acura 3.5RL, 1996/97 Infiniti Q45, 1995 & 1998 Lexus LS400)

People complain about the W202 C-Class, but that one was developed (from October 1986; 1990 sign-off) mostly with genuine MB standards. It wasn't until 1991 when McKinsey & Co came after the W140 cost overrun fiasco and instituted big cost reductions (targeted through 1995), it screwed up everything. The C-Class is what I'd call half-and-half on that front, while the W210 was mostly affected.

Not sure if the W124 second facelift launched in 1993 (likely signed off in 1991) was also affected. Interestingly, the Wolfgang Bernhard joined McKinsey in 1990 and then joined MB in 1992! That's how close McKinsey & Co became with Daimler-Benz! I wonder how involved he was in the quality downfall during that period.

Thanks so much for your very interesting reply, I enjoy so much to read what you write. All along when the E65 came out I somehow believe this car was brought out with these particular dimensions to be bigger and better than the W140. The E65 although is shorter but it is wider and just as tall as the W140 but it looks so much bigger on the road. It is totally opposite of the W220 which looks so sleek and dainty looking in comparison, especially as it is much narrower and lower than both W140 and E65. The Lexus LS430 introduced in 2000 has so many similar design characteristics to the W140 as well especially from the rear 3/4 view and window line and its height is also almost the same. And then another Korean the Ssangyong Chairman was a rip off of Mercedes design

Getting back to the E65 i found this early sketch on the net as well as some picture with what looks like the designs for the F01

This pic of Chris Bangle with a board sketch of possibly the E65 or he E63.

 

[klier]

Need we check the definition of evolution.....

Maybe we do, because compared to the E34, the E39 is very much a revolution.

 

[rollo]

@chonkoa

Regarding your "evolution" sarcastic comment, only if you are confused about the definition...... The revolution (which is not BMW SOP BTW) was towards, and then thankfully away from his designs. Just my opinion.

 

[rollo]

Maybe we do, because compared to the E34, the E39 is very much a revolution.

And since you chimed in after reminding us to stay on topic.....E34 to E39 was more conservative compared with E39 to E60.

 

[Carmaker1]

Thanks so much for your very interesting reply, I enjoy so much to read what you write. All along when the E65 came out I somehow believe this car was brought out with these particular dimensions to be bigger and better than the W140. The E65 although is shorter but it is wider and just as tall as the W140 but it looks so much bigger on the road. It is totally opposite of the W220 which looks so sleek and dainty looking in comparison, especially as it is much narrower and lower than both W140 and E65. The Lexus LS430 introduced in 2000 has so many similar design characteristics to the W140 as well especially from the rear 3/4 view and window line and its height is also almost the same. And then another Korean the Ssangyong Chairman was a rip off of Mercedes design

Getting back to the E65 i found this early sketch on the net as well as some picture with what looks like the designs for the F01

This pic of Chris Bangle with a board sketch of possibly the E65 or he E63.

Yes, how could I forget about one of the greatest copies of the W140? The 30-Series LS430, which I learned from some Japanese reading, the design of that was set in December 1997 and frozen in 1998. Basically, in between the W140 and W220.

As technologically revolutionary as it was compared to the 20-Series MY1995-2000 LS400, it was an unfortunate blatant rip-off nonetheless of the MB and pissed off recently retired Bruno Sacco upon reveal in 2000. One can see how Lexus later turned their attention to BMW upon inaugurating L-Finesse philosophy in 2001 and when it came to restyling the flagship in 2003, the used E65 as a template for the 40-Series LS.

(Below: Lexus HQ Nagoya in 2004 with LF-A concept, LS460 1:1 design model, and 2006 SC430 facelift prototype)

The XF40 LS was finalised/frozen in 2004, before the E65 facelift was leaked in Nov/Dec. 2004, and just as F01 design work was getting underway. Poor BMW likely was shocked when Lexus later revealed their LF-Sh concept in October 2005, since Habib's F01 was mostly finished. In some ways, a correction of the E65's flaws, that some accused BMW's F01 7er of copying the 2007 Lexus LS, that went on sale in late 2006.

One would hope such similarities do not occur again, as Lexus allegedly signed-off the next LS styling (due in 2016) quite early (in 2013). To mimic the G11 would be impossible and terribly expensive. Some claim Jaguar is their new target instead, but we'll see about that honestly.

BTW Rolf, that E65 sketch may not be early, but from the same month of the E65 design freeze (January 1999). I see he signed 1/99 on it, just as his rear sketch said 1/98

 

[klier]

And since you chimed in after reminding us to stay on topic.....E34 to E39 was more conservative compared with E39 to E60.

I don't feel the same way. You just don't like certain design aspects of the E60.

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

Such an interesting discussion. Thank you. Especially @Carmaker1.

 

[rollo]

I don't feel the same way. You just don't like certain design aspects of the E60.

Because I am a conservative old fart that yearns for years gone by I suppose. On a more serious note, didn't Bangle designs (especially the E65) attract more 1st time BMW buyers than other new models?

 

[Betty Swollocks]

didn't Bangle designs (especially the E65) attract more 1st time BMW buyers than other new models?

Yes, but that coincided with the "Great Straightjacket Shortage" (2001 to 2008). Thankfully those people have been rounded up and are now living in the home for the terminally bewildered.

 

[AHall]

The E60 was an ugly car.

 

[Carmaker1]

Yes, but that coincided with the "Great Straightjacket Shortage" (2001 to 2008). Thankfully those people have been rounded up and are now living in the home for the terminally bewildered.

Hey! My mother's not lost! (Or maybe she really was for agreeing to get rid of her E38 for this behemoth. SMH)