7 Series (G11) [Spy shots] BMW 7er (G11) Spy Pics & Info

[chonkoa]

Love it or loathe it, Bangle designs in my opinion changed the design language of cars. I think a car design need to have character:and that I think he brought to the industry.

 

[klier]

Well of course cars had character before Bangle, but he sure did change the whole industry. I don't see that happening soon again, maybe never again. It was the perfect storm really, particularly in combination with the advent of iDrive.

 

[rollo]

Such a pile of crap. Then answer me this folks, why did BMW return to their roots in terms of design post Bangle?

 

[rollo]

The Bangle era designs in my opinion have stood the passage of time, the Z4 , E60 5er and E63 6er still look modern and of this age.
They have a general consistency to be individual but their design elements are what are commonly used today not just from BMW. Lexus is a good example with all those sharp edges very much from the Bangle sketch book.
Elements introduced in those cars to solve engineering and packaging issues are interpreted as a similar concept but differ visually.
This was the period when BMW took the worlds no 1 premium manufacturer from Mercedes-Benz so Bangle and co. Did something right with the visual appeal of that era.

The E60 in no way, shape or form has withstood the test of time. It is the one black sheep in a history of otherwise remarkable 5's.

 

[bimmerjph]

^

Good Lord, really?

Bangle hijacked one of the most respected automotive companies design language in history and did a 180. That is the worst period in their history as far as appearance goes. Just look back and try to understand how his designs fit in with those before or after him. They look like they were designed by a completely different company (Japanese IMO).

BMW designs withstand the test of time, his did not.

Rant over.

Yes really. I can and have listened to hour long lectures (on youtube) that he has given and still want to listen to him more. He has this way of describing art and design that no other designer can match. In fact I wrote a four page paper on how much I liked Bangle for my high school art class.

Yes the Pre-LCI E65 was probably the ugliest car ever made from a respectable marque. Yes the facelift wasn't much better. But the E85, E60, and E63 were just such interesting cars to look at. They were experimental in ways Mercedes Benz and their "Avant Garde" mantra could have only dreamed of being. They added depth and sculpture to car design that very very very very few cars had before it.

The Bangle era designs in my opinion have stood the passage of time, the Z4 , E60 5er and E63 6er still look modern and of this age.
They have a general consistency to be individual but their design elements are what are commonly used today not just from BMW. Lexus is a good example with all those sharp edges very much from the Bangle sketch book.
Elements introduced in those cars to solve engineering and packaging issues are interpreted as a similar concept but differ visually.
This was the period when BMW took the worlds no 1 premium manufacturer from Mercedes-Benz so Bangle and co. Did something right with the visual appeal of that era.

One detail that I really loved about Bangle era cars was how he integrated the panel gaps into the design. Rather than making them random by appearing and disappearing out of nowhere he made them continous and wrap around the car. It made them feel natural rather than an eyesore. The E85 was a great example of this. I really wish BMW had kept doing this.

If anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about, I've highlighted this E85 to demonstrate it.

Lexus is a good example with all those sharp edges very much from the Bangle sketch book..

I'm not sure I agree with you there. Lexus's design language is very contrived, to me it doesn't feel particularly natural. Plus, Bangle was able to be radical yet still elegant, Lexus flat out hasn't in many cases.

That being said, I do still applaud Lexus for at least trying to be bold.

 

[klier]

Such a pile of crap. Then answer me this folks, why did BMW return to their roots in terms of design post Bangle?

The play-it-safe card?

The E60 in no way, shape or form has withstood the test of time. It is the one black sheep in a history of otherwise remarkable 5's.

E60 is amazing

View attachment 321771

Fantastic design

 

[rollo]

The play-it-safe card?

From the new BMW trying to sell as many cars as possible in todays world of increasingly aggressive styled cars to entice a younger audience?

 

[bimmerjph]

Such a pile of crap. Then answer me this folks, why did BMW return to their roots in terms of design post Bangle?

Because they lost their Hoden.

 

[rollo]

Yes really. I can and have listened to hour long lectures (on youtube) that he has given and still want to listen to him more. He has this way of describing art and design that no other designer can match. In fact I wrote a four page paper on how much I liked Bangle for my high school art class.

Yes the Pre-LCI E65 was probably the ugliest car ever made from a respectable marque. Yes the facelift wasn't much better. But the E85, E60, and E63 were just such interesting cars to look at. They were experimental in ways Mercedes Benz and their "Avant Garde" mantra could have only dreamed of being. They added depth and sculpture to car design that very very very very few cars had before it.



One detail that I really loved about Bangle era cars was how he integrated the panel gaps into the design. Rather than making them random by appearing and disappearing out of nowhere he made them continous and wrap around the car. It made them feel natural rather than an eyesore. The E85 was a great example of this. I really wish BMW had kept doing this.

If anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about, I've highlighted this E85 to demonstrate it.

I'm not sure I agree with you there. Lexus's design language is very contrived, to me it doesn't feel particularly natural. Plus, Bangle was able to be radical yet still elegant, Lexus flat out hasn't in many cases.

That being said, I do still applaud Lexus for at least trying to be bold.

I will concede to your point regarding the E85, not bad at all. Otherwise, not so much.

 

[klier]

From the new BMW trying to sell as many cars as possible in todays world of increasingly aggressive styled cars to entice a younger audience?

Not sure what you mean with increasingly aggressive? The only remotely aggressive design (from the front) is the 3er/4er, imo. And that's apparently what people want in this class, because the 3er usually is the most aggressive design in the line up..

 

[rollo]

Not sure what you mean with increasingly aggressive? The only remotely aggressive design (from the front) is the 3er/4er, imo. And that's apparently what people want in this class, because the 3er usually is the most aggressive design in the line up..

I meant the competition is more aggressive/overdone, while BMW's since Bangle are more conservative but timeless.

Up late tonight, trouble sleeping or still partying?

 

[klier]

Yeah trouble sleeping I guess, it's 3 AM
But discussions about Bangle always keep me awake, I love reading the reactions fans and haters
I myself try to find a middle ground, but if I had to choose, it'd be love.

 

[rollo]

Yeah trouble sleeping I guess, it's 3 AM
But discussions about Bangle always keep me awake, I love reading the reactions fans and haters
I myself try to find a middle ground, but if I had to choose, it'd be love.

That explains the insomnia! Too many unresolved arcs and lines in that head of yours.

 

[chonkoa]

Such a pile of crap. Then answer me this folks, why did BMW return to their roots in terms of design post Bangle?

If I may add, and I am not an expert.
I would not say they returned to their roots, they just used the bangle design as a new normal and just tweaked on it. We still have the flamed surfaces albeit to a moderated degree.
For it to be a pile of crap, there will have to be just about every car design that distance itself from the lines/surfaces that have come epitomise Chris' design language; but what we are witnessing is an integration of the concept in majority of the cars/vehicles that I see,

 

[chonkoa]

I meant the competition is more aggressive/overdone, while BMW's since Bangle are more conservative but timeless.

Up late tonight, trouble sleeping or still partying?

Did I just read you correctly " competition is more aggressive/overdone"
Was that you or was it someone else that took control of your keyboard, because that implies some sort of acceptance in a shift in design language due to some disturbance in the force field(perhaps, ask we this puzzle to the Jedi master)

 

[Carmaker1]

The E38 really stand out.

Yes, a timeless beauty. That car really did stand out and still does today for me. I always loved being picked up from school in that car as a kid, that I looked forward to my mother's day-offs or if my father switched cars with her. It did bother me (with great envy) that the 740iL Highline Sport did not come with power rear bucket seats, yet only the 750iL did.

Lately, I wonder at times which car made me stop and turn around (when I see something of interest pass by on the road/street) and as a result chuckle, when it's an E38 in pristine condition. Happened 2 weeks ago while in Texas.

I know there are many that prefer the E32 and consider the E38 inferior, but I still believe that the E38 is still better (obviously in being newer; I also prefer E46 over E36). Especially how it was the only BMW mostly designed and signed off without a design director present (pre-Bangle) and developed during a recession/recovery (1988-1994). Only the 1998 LCI and April 2000 refresh benefited from Bangle's guidance.

I miss Bangle. I really do. He is the only designer that I ever feel like I learn things from after listening to him. Hooydonk or Habib just make me want to hit my head against a wall... Really hard.

I agree, I was in the middle of watching "Designing Difference in a World of Sameness" where he spoke at Stanford. I will never forgive him for championing Adrian van Hooydonk's E65 proposal and not working hard to ensure the other E65 development teams maintained the original design vision, without screwing up the end product. He is a great visionary though.

The Bangle era designs in my opinion have stood the passage of time, the Z4 , E60 5er and E63 6er still look modern and of this age.
They have a general consistency to be individual but their design elements are what are commonly used today not just from BMW. Lexus is a good example with all those sharp edges very much from the Bangle sketch book.
Elements introduced in those cars to solve engineering and packaging issues are interpreted as a similar concept but differ visually.
This was the period when BMW took the worlds no 1 premium manufacturer from Mercedes-Benz so Bangle and co. Did something right with the visual appeal of that era.

I think you told us the issue with the E65 was an engineering problem, not really a design one. That must have been a very difficult 2.5 years for the marketing team to brainstorm ways to explain the aesthetic mess that was the E65 up until press release in July 2001.

While many criticised the pre-LCI E60 and pre-LCI E63, I believe they were not so bad. The E63 is not really ugly, so IDK why so many (detractors) made such a big deal about it? Especially the LCI version, which my mother still has an E64 LCI cabriolet and refuses to trade-up to the F13. Once people saw the E65, the media just latched onto anything negative they could on anything new from BMW.

Looking at this 2000 photo, the E60 could've been worse.

Lexus actually inaugurated their L-finesse design language in 2001 (just as the E65 was introduced and also after Z9 & X-Coupe concepts), which the concept design for their 2005/06 GS saloon was later derived from in 2002. The Lexus "Spindle Grille" just might have its roots back in 1991, when concept approval of the second generation 1995 LS400 (XF20) occurred. That was the first Lexus to have a trapezoidal fascia. Likely because of limited sheet metal stamping processes back in 1992 (final sign-off date as per Lexus Pursuit... book), the 1995 LS400 (XF20) didn't have much of a prominent X-shape fascia like today's model.


Updated versions of their original SC coupe in 1996 and the 1999 IS200 followed that template.


Other models didn't, especially the last LS400 update introduced in late 1997 (styled through spring 1996 according to Japanese source) that diluted this cue and the redesigned GS in late 1997. It wasn't until the late 2000s, that a greater sense of consistency took form in the Lexus Design department and mandated that every Lexus have a prominent signature family grille by 2013 (as has BMW for many decades).

Such a pile of crap. Then answer me this folks, why did BMW return to their roots in terms of design post Bangle?

Returned to their roots post-Bangle? How? Much of the models that gave such a conservative impression were designed and signed-off while he was present at BMW Group. On March 2, 2009, Christopher Weil's F30 proposal might've been among the first to be chosen after Bangle left around February 3, 2009. I am sure from my own educated guessing, that Weil was already sketching that design as early as 2007 and probably no later than the autumn of 2008 during Bangle's last months, under AvD's direct leadership (BMW Brand level).

The F01 and F10 were designed under van Hooydonk as brand design director during 2004-summer 2007, but there's no saying how much influence Bangle still had overall between 2004-2009. I'd even say he also guided design work on the F30, even though he wasn't there to choose Weil's proposal as the winner himself. Every modern BMW launched prior to early 2012 was designed under Chris Bangle's presence, which includes a lot of recent models.

The E60 in no way, shape or form has withstood the test of time. It is the one black sheep in a history of otherwise remarkable 5's.

I believe while the E60 might come across jarring to some, it really came out much better than it could have. The E60 photo above from 2000 actually shocked me when I stumbled upon it a few years ago and I believe SCOTT27 alluded to this sometime last year regarding bootlid shape.

Yes really. I can and have listened to hour long lectures (on youtube) that he has given and still want to listen to him more. He has this way of describing art and design that no other designer can match. In fact I wrote a four page paper on how much I liked Bangle for my high school art class.

Yes the Pre-LCI E65 was probably the ugliest car ever made from a respectable marque. Yes the facelift wasn't much better. But the E85, E60, and E63 were just such interesting cars to look at. They were experimental in ways Mercedes Benz and their "Avant Garde" mantra could have only dreamed of being. They added depth and sculpture to car design that very very very very few cars had before it.



One detail that I really loved about Bangle era cars was how he integrated the panel gaps into the design. Rather than making them random by appearing and disappearing out of nowhere he made them continous and wrap around the car. It made them feel natural rather than an eyesore. The E85 was a great example of this. I really wish BMW had kept doing this.

If anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about, I've highlighted this E85 to demonstrate it.

I'm not sure I agree with you there. Lexus's design language is very contrived, to me it doesn't feel particularly natural. Plus, Bangle was able to be radical yet still elegant, Lexus flat out hasn't in many cases.

That being said, I do still applaud Lexus for at least trying to be bold.

He partially made me realise that I'm not much of an engineer at heart, despite meeting all my marks very well in school. I'm someone more of aesthetic and technological innovation. Regarding Lexus design, I somewhat agree. I expect more elegance to be present in their upper end of Lexus products, which are pretty much secret at the moment (LC, LS).

Yeah trouble sleeping I guess, it's 3 AM
But discussions about Bangle always keep me awake, I love reading the reactions fans and haters
I myself try to find a middle ground, but if I had to choose, it'd be love.

My own insomnia is a never ending curse due to an overactive mind. Woke up randomly at 2AM and yet I have to be at work in 3 hours! From hearing what Bangle talks about times, I do regret not studying Industrial Design (no thanks to my parents) instead.

 

[bimmerjph]

I agree, I was in the middle of watching "Designing Difference in a World of Sameness" where he spoke at Stanford. I will never forgive him for championing Adrian van Hooydonk's E65 proposal and not working hard to ensure the other E65 development teams maintained the original design vision, without screwing up the end product. He is a great visionary though.

Do you happen to have any pictures of the original vision (other than the sketch by van Hooydonk)? Did it ever make it to a full size model in it's original version?

 

[Carmaker1]

Do you happen to have any pictures of the original vision (other than the sketch by van Hooydonk)? Did it ever make it to a full size model in it's original version?

Sorry, but no. I feel like I've seen a photo of it somewhere book/magazine, but cannot find it anymore. I believe a hard drive that failed (and wasn't backed up) had it. That photo definitely had to be from 1998 and probably before the engineering side got to it. I would ask EnI or SCOTT27 about that. I understood from both that design model and AvD's January 1998 sketch, clearly why Bangle choose AvD's initial sketches in 1997-98 and promised to fight for him.

The end result in that grainy photo (with Bangle inspecting a 1:1 E65 design model) I posted in the F20 LCI thread, is probably around the final sign-off of the E65's production design. Thankfully the G11 will not suffer from packaging problems again.

 

[martinbo]

What a tremendously interesting discussion! @ y'all.

 

[Mick Briesgau]

The Bangle era designs in my opinion have stood the passage of time, the Z4 , E60 5er and E63 6er still look modern and of this age.
They have a general consistency to be individual but their design elements are what are commonly used today not just from BMW. Lexus is a good example with all those sharp edges very much from the Bangle sketch book.
Elements introduced in those cars to solve engineering and packaging issues are interpreted as a similar concept but differ visually.
This was the period when BMW took the worlds no 1 premium manufacturer from Mercedes-Benz so Bangle and co. Did something right with the visual appeal of that era.

I totally agree, with exception of your next to last sentence. Why do you always make a sneer at an other brand, this time Mercedes-Benz? That was completely unnecessary.