Autobild: Test BMW 740i vs. Audi A8 4.2 FSI vs. Mercedes S 450


I agree. You can't go wrong with any car here. It is simply a matter of taste and brand loyalty and other factors. ;)




LOL :D

I wish that were true but it sadly isn't. I am no friend to Lexus at all. In fact I despise their image and how people rate them as being on the same prestige level as BMW or Mercedes (when in reality they have less brand prestige than Skoda, Renault or Citroen or even Fiat in my opinion (I can explain to you why this is so...)).

They do make excellent cars and these cars make the Germans work harder - and in the end we win. :t-cheers:

But I love bashing Lexus from time to time too. Especially when there is a grain of truth in it. :D

I agree with you lexus to me don't represent prestige car, and offcours you forget to mention an audi in that class(audi-bmw-merc):bowdown:
 
^ Aren't you forgetting something there Chris???

You forgot to mention Audi:eusa_snoo



:t-cheers:


AUDI > Lexus

SKODA > Lexus

SEAT > Lexus

VW > Lexus


Feel free to argue with me but this is how I interprete Lexus brand image to be. In my eyes they have none. I can go on for pages on explaining why this is so.

:t-cheers:
 
I agree the Japanese cars to me don't have value except Mitsubishi Evo(not bade i can live with it ).
Lexus, Acura, Infiniti < Opel and i don't wily like Opel.
 
I agree the Japanese cars to me don't have value except Mitsubishi Evo(not bade i can live with it ).
Lexus, Acura, Infiniti < Opel and i don't wily like Opel.

Well, Japanese cars have their own history and heritage, which also includes Toyota. I wouldn't say they have no value.

But not Lexus. Lexus has no real heritage. That short time from 1989 to now doesn't even give them 1/3 of the heritage, achievements and developments that companies like Mercedes-Benz in particularly have achieved.

I've heard people say silly things like "Lexus has heritage because of Toyota." This is total BS. Lexus may have been created by Toyota but it is still a separate brand that like other brands has to start at ground zero.

Lexus has no real history, no motorsport heritage, no real innovation, no ground-breaking safety technological developments etc. Mercedes-Benz on the other hand has a history of inventing such things in every decade and has a motorsport history that can rival pure sportscar brands like Porsche or Ferrari.

So when people compare Lexus to Mercedes-Benz in terms of brand prestige, I get really upset. Because Lexus is nowhere near Mercedes. Lexus is not even near brands like Tatra or Fiat, which have a history of innovation and technological breakthroughs in the past and have created cars that have captured the imagination of people. Lexus might be an equal or superior competitor, but in terms of brand prestige Lexus has done nothing worthwhile except exploit the willingness to believe of the American consumer with heavy dosages of marketing - and in some cases false marketing.

Sure, they're reliable and used to offer good value, but aside from that there is really nothing that makes a Lexus an interesting vehicle. More importantly, they lack passion. Brands like Benz or Daimler, BMW, Rolls Royce, Aston Martin, Jaguar etc. were created or founded by men with a vision and passion. This was during the time when the automobile was in its infancy and the desire to make money seemed secondary. What these people wanted was a challenge - to build a car that would carry their name and to have fun while constructing and tweaking it. They saw the rivalry from other constructors as a challenge and spend nights or weeks trying to find the technological solution that would give their product an advantage over their neighbors. Now this is how many of the European brands started out - passionate creators. And because of this many European brands have an illustrative and rich heritage and well-deserved brand prestige and recognition.

Lexus was created not because of passion. It was created to steal market share from the European luxury brands in North America. Then their cars were accompanied with an overload of marketing hypes and slogans to get people to buy them. No passion whatsoever. Just Toyota trying to make money by selling well-engineered, yet incredibly dull and boring cars to the wealthy.

Honestly, I really despise Lexus and how people overrate them. Lexus design lacks any sort of harmony. There is no clear design language - except the Hoffmeister kink they shamelessly ripped from BMW. Worse, their interiors are so damn cheap - and people don't see it. Lexus knows how to dress up a cheap interior and make it look "expensive". I wonder how they got away with the IS, LS and LX interiors because those interiors are dirt cheap in my opinion. Several reviews have also mentioned this.

Either way, I think of myself as an enthusiast. I have some respect for Lexus because they did force the German luxury car makers to step up their game, but they're honestly not as good as people make them out to be. Being reliable and good-value isn't much to brag about when there are many other criteria that matter. Lexus is piss poor when it comes to utilizing interior space or making their ergonomics practical etc.
 
Yeah it is silly to compare Lexus to Mercedes (or any other prestige European/American) brand in terms or prestige. Lexus was thought up during a Toyota board meeting in 1983. The original name was "Lexis", but the computer company sued them and they had to change it to "Lexus". This doesn't happen to a real brand started by one man, Karl, Enzo, etc. No one could tell them they can't use their own name...lol!!

The funny part about Lexus is that when I first saw one in Sept of 1989 I actually like the idea of another Japanese luxury make. That was until I saw how shamlessly they tried to be like Mercedes-Benz. It was disgusting. I'd never seen anything so exacting in its duplication attempt of an original.

That said I like the original Lexus SC and the 93-94 LS400. The current IS and to some degree the current LS460L, but other than that, there isn't anything with an "L" on it that would make me look or think twice.


M
 
AUDI > Lexus

SKODA > Lexus

SEAT > Lexus

VW > Lexus


Feel free to argue with me but this is how I interprete Lexus brand image to be. In my eyes they have none. I can go on for pages on explaining why this is so.

:t-cheers:

It's not fare to say that Audi don't have any prestige cars, Audi do make some amazing cars do compete with top level Mercedes and BMWs. A lot of people dislike Audi because they came from know where really and they can compete and are even better than the two majour brands (Mercedes ad BMW), well there was there previous companies but you have to be real entuhsiasts to know what they were about. Everyone only started to know who Audi were when the quattro was first introduced into b group rally.

But I don't belive Audi don't have a brand image for one minute, the brand image migh not be full of pure heritage like Mercedes or a well know name for sporty cars like BMW, But they are building up a very good image for quality, sporty, luxury cars (shame Lexus can't do the same:D)

Anyway I'm sure we could argue all day, would only end bad tho;)



:t-cheers:
 
Of course they have a very good brand image james, but for the purists it will never match BMW & Mercedes, cause history will always play a big role in the perception of a brand, at least for the people who know & cares.
 
Of course they have a very good brand image james, but for the purists it will never match BMW & Mercedes, cause history will always play a big role in the perception of a brand, at least for the people who know & cares.

Ahh yes, has a couple more years before it can even try and compete with Mercedes for heritage:usa7uh:

But because Lexus or Audi don't have much of a history they have to make cars which stand out from the others....Well Lexus is the shy kid in the class who no one likes where as Audi is the new kid with the looks who everyone loves:D Basically meaning Lexus don't design cars which stand out from the others where as Audi do, and they need to do that because they cant compete wit heritage:usa7uh:



:t-cheers:
 
Ahh yes, has a couple more years before it can even try and compete with Mercedes for heritage:usa7uh:

But because Lexus or Audi don't have much of a history they have to make cars which stand out from the others....Well Lexus is the shy kid in the class who no one likes where as Audi is the new kid with the looks who everyone loves:D Basically meaning Lexus don't design cars which stand out from the others where as Audi do, and they need to do that because they cant compete wit heritage:usa7uh:



:t-cheers:

What?? Audi and no history? Audi, aka Auto Union is steeped in history. I would even say it is ahead of BMW when it comes to 'heritage'. They just lost their way in 80s/90s but that is now behind them.
 
It's a bit easy I find to bash lexus because they're relatively "new". If you think so, Pagani is just a rubbish company making ridiculoous cars without prestige or anything. Hell, they don't even make their own motor...

Yet nobody would say that.

Lexus came from nowhere, and suddenly it was there: the LS400. A car that could speak with a Mercedes S-Class and thus, was more or less the second best car in the world. The "pursuit of perfection" was fully here in 1990's lexuses, their cars were technically as perfect as it can be. It's not often that a car company can release, at the first try, a car that is among the best ever. It has to be recognized as an amazing achievment.

I agree, lexus has no heritage. Does that mean they have no value? Is heritage such an important thing that it counts as the main purchase reason? I don't think so.

I don't like Lexus. Never did. But I recognize the value of their cars. And I understand why so many people like them. If you consider a car rationally, it's hard to top Lexus: reliable, not so expensive, very well-made, impeccable dearler service. They do the job of moving people in comfort like few others.

They only lack passion, originality. They're a very japanese way of building cars: perfection is the word. Perfection as to the point of nearing boringness.
The design has no meaning for them, as it doesn't influence the car itself: so they spend the money elsewhere. The quality of the plastics is not always the best you can find... but it's flawlessly assembled. And so does it go on.

That was good when the Merc were lacking: less well-made and less reliable, the W220. Now that the W221 is on top of its game again, the LS begins to fade: it cannot distanciate itself from its model, and only shines when this model is fading.

Lexus is very recent, and hasn't found its way. First, a Mercedes copy. Now, they begin to add some European cues, as design and emotion, with the so-called L-finesse. Let's see the next gen... doesn't look good so far, but time will tell.

For an enthusiat, Lexus is not a brand he can fall in love with. But for Average Joe, it's a very serious contender. It's an achievment.

Heritage is a very European thing. Americans for instance don't care about it, they care about the curent product.

As far as comparing Skoda to Lexus... Well it's completely out of proportions. lexus made more in 20 years than Skoda in its full history. Skoda were only interesting when their name was next to Hispano's.

You can't see the age of a company as a KO-criteria for the purchase of a product.
Heritage is good, but the quality of the product is much more important. I prefer a good product to a bad product, but coming from a once prestigious brand. Mercedes, BMW and Audi were able top preserve the quality of their product, Cadillac or Lincoln were not...like many others.

I won't buy a XX only because it has heritage. I won't despise Lexus because it has no heritage yet. Things are moving, you can't live in the past. New references can come from nowhere, old references can disappear. When I buy something, I don't come with my history book, I come with a test. I will only buy the product of an established brand if it is still up to its reputation.
 
What?? Audi and no history? Audi, aka Auto Union is steeped in history. I would even say it is ahead of BMW when it comes to 'heritage'. They just lost their way in 80s/90s but that is now behind them.
Don't worry I was referring to Aunto Union, NSU and Horch before:)


:t-cheers:
 
It's not fare to say that Audi don't have any prestige cars, Audi do make some amazing cars do compete with top level Mercedes and BMWs. A lot of people dislike Audi because they came from know where really and they can compete and are even better than the two majour brands (Mercedes ad BMW), well there was there previous companies but you have to be real entuhsiasts to know what they were about. Everyone only started to know who Audi were when the quattro was first introduced into b group rally.

But I don't belive Audi don't have a brand image for one minute, the brand image migh not be full of pure heritage like Mercedes or a well know name for sporty cars like BMW, But they are building up a very good image for quality, sporty, luxury cars (shame Lexus can't do the same:D)

Anyway I'm sure we could argue all day, would only end bad tho;)



:t-cheers:



I am not putting down Audi in any way, because they are the rising star of the big German three luxury brands. However, when you compare their history to that of Mercedes and BMW, they're a little behind in achievements and innovation.

This is not to say that Audi is brand without prestige, on the contrary, they have a lot, but I personally tend to view brand prestige as a sum of history, heritage, achievements, motorsport involvement and global appeal. If we were to rank the German luxury brands in this order, from a prestige perspective, it would look like this.

1st Place: Mercedes
2nd Place: BMW
3rd Place: Audi

Again, this is based on my personal view and on how I measure brand prestige. :t-cheers:


At any rate all three German brands have what it takes: they have history and heritage, many technological and safety achievements and a lot of motorsport heritage. One could even argue that brands like Horch, NSU, Auto Union etc. added to the prestige and heritage of the Audi brand. ;)


This is all based on my opinion and I like to base my opinions on facts. Therefore we know that when some Lexus fanboy talks about those gussied up Toyotas being able to compete with Mercedes, Audi or BMW from a brand prestige perspective, we know they're full of it. Lexus isn't even worthy of being compared to (in terms of brand prestige) Citroen, Renault, Fiat, Tatra, Lancia, Alfa Romeo, Volkswagen, heck throw in some Russian cars while we're at it like Lada (even the Fiat-based ones), Moskvich, ZIL, Dacia etc. :D
 
It all depends on what you understand by "brand prestige".
For some, it means history, competition, mythical models, innovations.
For others, it means a classy interior, many gadgets, leather and a cushion-ride.
For others, it means as many hp as possible.
For some, it means a shiny color and Lambo-doors.

Lexus is not prestigious in terms of history, but it certainly is in terms of perception. And today, it's all about perception. Make a lot of advertisement, offer flawless vehicules with an undeniable luxury-feel abouth them, make the customer feel prestigious at the dealer, and voilà! You're perceived as prestigious.

Lexus's prestige is entirely based on the car and the dealer-experience. It is the modern meaning of prestige. it is an American prestige, based on what the brand offers currently regarless of the past.

Lexus' prestige is a marketing prestige. But it is just as efficient, because it makes Lexus prestigious. And today, Lexus IS a prestigious brand, for the customers at least, because its product compete with Mercedes, Audi, BMW's products.

Lexus is often said in the same sentence as Mercedes and co, and it's no rarity to see a comparo between Mercedes, Audi, BMW, and Lexus. By this, Lexus has indeniably managed to be perceived as prestigious.

Even if I perfectly see where you're coming from, Chris, and agree with you in fact, there are few people today who think like this.
 
No one can deny that Lexus makes good cars, but at the same time their cars are overhyped by a blabber or marketing and the press alike. It's like you're trying to catch a breath of fresh air but can't because of the stream of facts thrown at you by the Lexus dealer about what an ES350 can do etc. They're really trying to sell their cars based on what is in them, but not what made them interesting as a brand.

European brands tend to emphasize their history, heritage and achievements - and classic cars (because these are a testimony to how long they've been around). In Europe and elsewhere in the world, a luxury brand is defined by its history and heritage. These things give the brand a reputation - a name. Lexus has been doing poorly in such markets. They can stress technology all they want, their brand is nameless and doesn't stand for anything. But when you pull up somewhere in a Mercedes or a BMW or nowadays an Audi, people will know something about this brands past. Something that means something to most.


This is something I told Rob (SDNR) awhile go. An analogy of how I see the whole Lexus prestige thing.

Audi, BMW and Mercedes are the poor kids that applied to an elite college for acceptance (This is a reference to how these brands started out with little financial help etc.). They were eventually accepted based on their hard work, creativity and their standing out amongst several competing students (other brands trying to make it big in the luxury sector) and began as freshman like everyone else.

Then, in their senior year, a new kid showed up. His name was Lexus and his rich dad, Mr. Toyota, had a lot of money. Therefore, Lexus could enter college as a senior, skipping the freshman, sophomore and junior years respectively. Lexus had never before been to college but immediately began comparing himself and his achievements to those of Audi, BMW and Mercedes. Many people (enthusiasts who love automotive history) were enraged by this. They felt that this poser, who has done nothing in the past, is now here amongst the elite and thinks he is on the same level in terms of knowledge and awards (brand prestige).


Don't get me started on what happened at graduation. :D
 
Lexus's prestige is entirely based on the car and the dealer-experience. It is the modern meaning of prestige. it is an American prestige, based on what the brand offers currently regarless of the past.

Lexus' prestige is a marketing prestige. But it is just as efficient, because it makes Lexus prestigious. And today, Lexus IS a prestigious brand, for the customers at least, because its product compete with Mercedes, Audi, BMW's products.

Lexus is often said in the same sentence as Mercedes and co, and it's no rarity to see a comparo between Mercedes, Audi, BMW, and Lexus. By this, Lexus has indeniably managed to be perceived as prestigious.

Even if I perfectly see where you're coming from, Chris, and agree with you in fact, there are few people today who think like this.


You've mentioned several good points. I agree with you completely. ;)

BUT...


I am a Mercedes-Benz fan, always have been. Why? Because their history and heritage were so fascinating. This is what got me hooked on Mercedes. They had a cool history with decades of innovation and achievements and many "firsts in this and that" (motorsport, technology etc.).

I am sure you will understand me because you yourself are a Mercedes fan, a passionate one I can see.

The perception of Lexus as a luxury brand equal to Audi, BMW and Mercedes is high these days, yes, that's no secret. But as someone who knows the history behind Mercedes, its achievements and how they earned their spot in the automotive hall of fame (if there is one), it will be a pain in the neck to hear how Lexus is soooooooooooooooo this and sooooooooooo that - because to us (Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Skoda, Citroen - fans), Lexus has done nothing that would warrant their placing in this elite level of automobile. Do you get what I am saying? Other brands worked hard to get where they are - Lexus received funding from rich daddy Toyota to get where they are essentially. See my analogy in my last post (in green).

I'm talking about unfairness here. I know this seems childish but as someone who appreciates the history of car brand and the impact and reputation and perception it places on the brand, I cannot accept that Lexus is on the same level in terms of prestige. I have often said that they're superior or equal competitors in terms of technology, but not brand prestige.

I know that many people just want the best deal and don't care about brand prestige - that's fine. But what isn't fine is when these same people, who know sh*t about car brands and their history, start claiming that Lexus is on the same brand prestige level as Mercedes or Audi or BMW or Tatra or Lada (:D). That really pisses me off. :usa7uh:

:t-cheers:
 
The funny part about Lexus is that when I first saw one in Sept of 1989 I actually like the idea of another Japanese luxury make.


I actually liked the first-generation LS400. I thought it looked very sporty and modern. It didn't exactly however look very premium - only its large size and length gave the impression that it was supposed to be a luxury sedan.

One thing I never understood was how roadtesters rated the interior as "beautiful". The quality was certainly there, but the design could have come out of any 1980s Japanese mainstream sedan. Tons of matt black plastic, boring design, no classiness whatsoever. Only difference was that the LS400 had wood (or fake wood). ;)

6205a9069bdc7f7acda0b09b3a65d7f5.webp





It was funny how people "made fun of the W126 Mercedes S-Class interior" calling it outdated and cheap. Huh? What are they talking about?




The W126 S-Class interior blows that poser LS400 interior out of the water in terms of design and elegance. Sure, it might look older but that's because the W126 S-Class debuted in 1979 - and development took place in 1972, right after the W116 S-Class was released. A luxury sedan is supposed to have an interior that at least appears elegant and classy and the W126 interior does that: the LS400 interior doesn't (at least for me).
 
No one can deny that Lexus makes good cars, but at the same time their cars are overhyped by a blabber or marketing and the press alike. It's like you're trying to catch a breath of fresh air but can't because of the stream of facts thrown at you by the Lexus dealer about what an ES350 can do etc. They're really trying to sell their cars based on what is in them, but not what made them interesting as a brand.

European brands tend to emphasize their history, heritage and achievements - and classic cars (because these are a testimony to how long they've been around). In Europe and elsewhere in the world, a luxury brand is defined by its history and heritage. These things give the brand a reputation - a name. Lexus has been doing poorly in such markets. They can stress technology all they want, their brand is nameless and doesn't stand for anything. But when you pull up somewhere in a Mercedes or a BMW or nowadays an Audi, people will know something about this brands past. Something that means something to most.


This is something I told Rob (SDNR) awhile go. An analogy of how I see the whole Lexus prestige thing.

Audi, BMW and Mercedes are the poor kids that applied to an elite college for acceptance (This is a reference to how these brands started out with little financial help etc.). They were eventually accepted based on their hard work, creativity and their standing out amongst several competing students (other brands trying to make it big in the luxury sector) and began as freshman like everyone else.

Then, in their senior year, a new kid showed up. His name was Lexus and his rich dad, Mr. Toyota, had a lot of money. Therefore, Lexus could enter college as a senior, skipping the freshman, sophomore and junior years respectively. Lexus had never before been to college but immediately began comparing himself and his achievements to those of Audi, BMW and Mercedes. Many people (enthusiasts who love automotive history) were enraged by this. They felt that this poser, who has done nothing in the past, is now here amongst the elite and thinks he is on the same level in terms of knowledge and awards (brand prestige).


Don't get me started on what happened at graduation. :D

I agree with you, in the depth of my heart. But in the same time, I disagree, because I feel you are not recognizing Lexus' value.

Let me take an example: Fernando Alonso is a double World Champion. Then comes the newbie, lewis Hamilton. he did nothing. Yet in his first race, he humiliates fred. And on the next too. And...

What do you do? Stick to Fred because of its past achievments? Or salute hamilton's fantastic skills?

Many many tried to compete with Mercedes in the past like in modern times. Very few managed to even once make something to threaten them. Almost every one of those who managed to get a comparable image at one time have shortly after that fallen into forgetness. Some of them disappeared, some of them survived somehow in the shadow of what they once were.

Jaguar. Cadillac. Duesenberg. Hispano-Suiza. Packard. Lincoln. Facel-Vega. Auto-Union. Horch. Delage. Hotchkiss. Infiniti. Acura. Isotta-Fraschini. Lagonda. Lancia.

Of them, all failed. Rolls-Royce, Audi and Bentley are not independant any more, but managed to gain or surpass Mercedes' image.
BMW is one of the very few who can threaten Mercedes, and remained independant.

And Lexus surges from nowhere, and with one try they release a car that can speak with the W140 S-Class and makes the 7-Series a gracile lower-end sedan? One word: congrats.

Now, you can criticize their cars, I do ot like them and feel they lost the plot. But historically, what Lexus achieved is unique, and has to be saluted.
I unfortunately have to say that none of the following Lexus's were able to truly remake the mirtacle of the LS400, but nonetheless they belong to the pinnacle of automotive carmaking.

They may failed to dethrone Mercedes. They may not be as good a package as their german competitors. It's a great great effort nonetheless, and a unique achievment. Compare BMW's first cars to Lexus' ones, and see what a stunning vehicle the LS400 was!
 
Some great point Chris about the college kids, it's completly right:D

I feel the same about the Nissan Gt-r, suddenly came out of know where and assertively argued that it was faster that then Porsche 911 turbo around the N-ring and in the end...it's not.

I wouldn't feel that way if it hadn't interrupted the party, p!ssed on my guests, punched me in the face then said sorry at the end.

If Lexus hadn't of barged it way to the top and and demanded 1st place people wold respect them more, if they slowly worked there way up (which is what Audi did) people would respect them more beause they earned that place:usa7uh:

I completly respect you opinions about Mercedes becaue your a Mercedes Fan, but as an Audi fan (I have to try and defend them:D)


:t-cheers:
 

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