The Perennial Favourite: Japanese Vs. German Engineering.
- Thread starter Mr. M
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With engines it's a different story than with programming or other such things. They didn't just engineer the engines as a safeguard for themselves. They did it because of the japanese culture of modifying the crap out of their cars. The car companies learned that their "super cars" will be modified because their stated "276hp" because of the gentlemen's agreement isn't enough for the tuner. That's why tuning houses like Blitz, HKS, etc. existed. On the older cars they had to get new aftermarket blocks because the factory ones would blow to bits. Thats learned and made their motors pretty much bulletproof so that the normal dude with not a lot of money can boost the turbo a bit more without needing all the aftermarket engine safeguards.
yeah, that sounds like a better explanation why they over engineered their engines - the culture of tuning prevalent in Japan, but I still don't see how over-engineering translates to engineering prowess. That is not to say they don't have it, but over-engineering doesn't necessarily reflect it.
Deutsch
Tire Trailblazer
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Wha??? The Japanese don't build great engines because they've always modded the crap out of every engine they built. Its the other way around: The Japanese build great engines that still allow enough flexibility for extensive modification of various components. Things are starting to change with the Japanese government cracking down on illegal street racing by forcing car makers and tuners to comply with new laws that regulate just how much power a street car can have.
Onto the debate: The Germans are good with coming up with innovative ideas, but their execution is the reason why many prefer to lease and not own German cars (at least in the U.S.), because as it is things eventually things break and very few can truly afford to be stuck with the bill. This isn't even after a short period, we're talking the duration of the warranty. A lot of the reputation of various industries including automotive is derived from the culture of their respective countries of origin. You can attribute the bullet proof nature of most Japanese and other Asian cars to the due diligence and level of discipline exercised in different aspects of various Asian cultures. I don't know what specifically can be said for the Germans though I have some idea such as the "Western" mentality to innovate and dominate, but I think that's changing and we're beginning (or going to) take lessons from elsewhere.
Onto the debate: The Germans are good with coming up with innovative ideas, but their execution is the reason why many prefer to lease and not own German cars (at least in the U.S.), because as it is things eventually things break and very few can truly afford to be stuck with the bill. This isn't even after a short period, we're talking the duration of the warranty. A lot of the reputation of various industries including automotive is derived from the culture of their respective countries of origin. You can attribute the bullet proof nature of most Japanese and other Asian cars to the due diligence and level of discipline exercised in different aspects of various Asian cultures. I don't know what specifically can be said for the Germans though I have some idea such as the "Western" mentality to innovate and dominate, but I think that's changing and we're beginning (or going to) take lessons from elsewhere.
Skorzenius
Warm-Up Lap
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i would still have to say that the germans are more respectable.
i mean the japanese are fantastic at taking things and improving them, to every possible end. it's very possible that they make the best value, most reliable, most fuel effecient/ for power cars in the world.
but i just can't respect them as much as the germans because they haven't really innovated anything major.
the germans invented the car, and so on
i mean the japanese are fantastic at taking things and improving them, to every possible end. it's very possible that they make the best value, most reliable, most fuel effecient/ for power cars in the world.
but i just can't respect them as much as the germans because they haven't really innovated anything major.
the germans invented the car, and so on
mayham85
Turbo Tüftler
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- Yunus Emre ŞİMŞEK
i make 5000 km per month and safety handling comfort is more important for me. i drove almost all of the japon models (which are on sale in turkey) and NONE of them gives me more over my 2001 SEAT TOLEDO. my toledo is more comfortable, has good fuel economy, enough performance and safety. i had 2 accidents this year onces i crashed pavement (because of old tires) with 100 km/s speed and my car had so few damage we were 5 persons in the car none of us had any wound. same days another friend of me had same type of accident 2000 model civic ek the car became just JUNK and his girl friend died. that is the difference.
japonese has to learn this first. toyota is getting better but honda is so poor about this subject for example.
japonese has to learn this first. toyota is getting better but honda is so poor about this subject for example.
coolraoul
Torque Titan
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Interesting debate...
I'd say they have different conceptions of what a car is, and thus develop different technology.
I'd say, Japanese perception of a car is a bit colder. It has to work, primilarly.
So they are reluctant to put brand new (eg. not ironed-out) tech in their cars, which is why they don't innovate in the strict sense of the term (meaning: come up with a brand new idea).
However, they are masters at taking an existing idea and perfecting it so that when it is actually build in the car, it works faultlessly.
For them, it's not the tech in itself that is interesting, but its implementation.
Germans are more passionate by the technology. They love to come-up with new ideas, to innovate. Their things is to be "first to", to find solutions (even if the linked problem doesn't really exist BTW), they love to out-clever the competition.
Sometimes however, the idea could be better implemented... It can lead to reliability problems.
They love to innovate more than to implement or perfect a tech. They want to move.
Even if the germans are considered as among the most rigid and cold people in Europe, they are like italians next to the japanese.
Look at the Lexus LS400: it can arguably be said to have "copied" the W140. However, instead of changing the shape like MB did, they sticked with it but perfected it (more fluid, more aerodynamic etc) for the LS430 and co... Germans never do that (bar VW with the Golf).
However, we can observe that Lexus for instance is now trying to innovate more instead than always coming with déja-vu technology (active steering with LKA, self-parking, rear-crash surveillance, auto-brake with pedestrian recognition... all systems whose implementation is far from perfect in the car...) whereas MB for instance is increasing the testing period and thus releasing new tech bit later than before to boost reliability...
These two conceptions are moving toward each other now. The Japanese try to be more innovative, the Germans try to care more about ironing-out their cars.
As far as the comments about out-sourcing, getting everything done by Bosch... BS.
M-B for instance is the one and only manufacturer with Peugeot to build its own dampers, one of the very few to build and conceive its own gearboxes.
The Japanese are using Aisin and co the same way as the Germans Siemens and Bosch.
I'd say they have different conceptions of what a car is, and thus develop different technology.
I'd say, Japanese perception of a car is a bit colder. It has to work, primilarly.
So they are reluctant to put brand new (eg. not ironed-out) tech in their cars, which is why they don't innovate in the strict sense of the term (meaning: come up with a brand new idea).
However, they are masters at taking an existing idea and perfecting it so that when it is actually build in the car, it works faultlessly.
For them, it's not the tech in itself that is interesting, but its implementation.
Germans are more passionate by the technology. They love to come-up with new ideas, to innovate. Their things is to be "first to", to find solutions (even if the linked problem doesn't really exist BTW), they love to out-clever the competition.
Sometimes however, the idea could be better implemented... It can lead to reliability problems.
They love to innovate more than to implement or perfect a tech. They want to move.
Even if the germans are considered as among the most rigid and cold people in Europe, they are like italians next to the japanese.
Look at the Lexus LS400: it can arguably be said to have "copied" the W140. However, instead of changing the shape like MB did, they sticked with it but perfected it (more fluid, more aerodynamic etc) for the LS430 and co... Germans never do that (bar VW with the Golf).
However, we can observe that Lexus for instance is now trying to innovate more instead than always coming with déja-vu technology (active steering with LKA, self-parking, rear-crash surveillance, auto-brake with pedestrian recognition... all systems whose implementation is far from perfect in the car...) whereas MB for instance is increasing the testing period and thus releasing new tech bit later than before to boost reliability...
These two conceptions are moving toward each other now. The Japanese try to be more innovative, the Germans try to care more about ironing-out their cars.
As far as the comments about out-sourcing, getting everything done by Bosch... BS.
M-B for instance is the one and only manufacturer with Peugeot to build its own dampers, one of the very few to build and conceive its own gearboxes.
The Japanese are using Aisin and co the same way as the Germans Siemens and Bosch.
HighestOfHigh
Cornering Kingpin
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- Ben
I picked German only because of my "loyalty" to Mercedes-Benz. Not to mention their technology and level of sophistication is out this world.
On the other hand Japanese brands have some amazing engineering (toyota and honda). Even Nissan with the GT-R and Infiniti Models have produced some outstanding and very likeable products. Not to mention Japanese cars also have lets cost especially when it comes to parts and even oil changes. Their very long lasting as well. Of Course when it comes to SAFTEY...Mercedes-Benz and Volvo (of course it's not german, but they still produce world class safety) they can't be beat.
On the other hand Japanese brands have some amazing engineering (toyota and honda). Even Nissan with the GT-R and Infiniti Models have produced some outstanding and very likeable products. Not to mention Japanese cars also have lets cost especially when it comes to parts and even oil changes. Their very long lasting as well. Of Course when it comes to SAFTEY...Mercedes-Benz and Volvo (of course it's not german, but they still produce world class safety) they can't be beat.
VroomVroom
Autotechnik Ace
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- Name
- James
German Engineering!
Japanese engineering is only a copy German engineering
Cashmere
RPM Ruler
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HighestOfHigh
Cornering Kingpin
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- Name
- Ben
TOUCH SCREEN Navigations are so much better then "joytick/ nob" ones. Much easier and quicker.
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- Name
- Giannis
whats wrong with touch screen nav?
Requires too much attention from the driver, compared with the other systems...
HighestOfHigh
Cornering Kingpin
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- Ben
Requires too much attention from the driver, compared with the other systems...
How so? Using the nob/joystick is so much more complicated and requires much more attention.
NarutoRamen
Kraftwagen König
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Requires too much attention from the driver, compared with the other systems...
Do you stare at your keyboard when you type? Do you look at your mouse when you move the cursor? All of this becomes muscle memory, same thing with touch screens. Ask anyone with a touch screen phone how easy it becomes to operate after a short period of time.
NarutoRamen
Kraftwagen König
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Exactly, so to say that one requires more attention from the other is nonsense. The only problem I can see in the touch screen case is that you have to move out of position to get to the screen, but if your arm is on the armrest the knobs are easier to reach. On the counter side of the argument, if you are one of those people who drive with both hand on the steering wheel, the touch screen is easier to reach than the knobs. It goes both ways.
Poll result is kinda one-sided... guess we truly are in a GermanCarForum !
We are. You will find German car fans here. Count me in.
Yes. I strongly agree with you. A slight majority of people out there are forgetting. Outside of this website, a lot of Skyline fans whined when I tried to flog their beloved car real hard. I compared it with:
1. McLaren F1 LM
2. Ascari A10
3. Porsche Carrera GT
4. Pagani Zonda F
5. Mercedes Benz CLK-GTR Strassenversion
In terms of:
1. Engineering (ie how it stands as an engineering masterpiece)
2. Track performance
3. Desirability (is it a passionate car to own? how does it feel to own one? how does it feel to drive one?)
4. Collectibility (ie how it stands as a collectible)
5. Future Value
6. Exotic factor
7. Rarity
NarutoRamen
Kraftwagen König
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Yes, let's compare apples to oranges to prove a point.
The cars you have listed above are supercars and for each one you could buy 10 GT-Rs, yet it has embarrassed all of them on their favorite track.
1. Engineering: GT-R is made with precision and in an air-tight area so not even a speck of dust can get in.
2. Track Performance: We have all seen the results, no need to say again.
3. Desirability: It's pretty f__king desirable.
4-7...Lets not confuse mass market cars to limited run supercars.
You want a fair comparo, compare the GT-R to cars that cost the same or just a bit above and then tell me where it stacks up. If you can't get over your own bias then please don't try to compare.
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