1 Series [Spyshots] BMW 1-Series Sedan

[Mr Robert]

I guess it must be down to snow being different in New Zeeland compared to Europe.

 

[Zafiro]

Me and my family been driving rear-wheel-drive BMW's since the 90's. No accidents in all these decades. Sure the yellow light flash but never been off the road or stuck in the snow. The strenght is in the tyres and you.
Every year you see AWD cars off the road, why? because these drivers think they cars are invincible and over-estimate their driving skills.

BTW I'v also owned FWD cars, there been moments when troubles going uphill. Again, you need good tyres, and adjust the speed to the conditions, thats what saves lives.
If I ever buy a BMW again, rwd for me since my personal experiences are good.

I'm not saying RWD is superior or anything, thats why BMW offer AWD for most of their cars.

 

[DblPen]

Nope it doesn't work like that at all. The C class and 3 series I have owned are very light in the rear end, so there is no weight in the back to push the tyres down to get them to grip. My neighbour has a RWD Hilux ute, he doesn't use it in winter unless he's got the bed full of additional weight, it can't get up the access road.

I'll go with what I know and I know through experience and watching watching others fail that FWD is far far superior to RWD. BTW all the cars I have owned since moving to the snow have been new, have had the best snow tyres available, both RWD's had spiked tyres, something I have found unnecessary since we moved to FWD cars. The Volvo V70 has so far been the best vehicle I've used in the snow, we never managed to get it stuck, the only time we have stuck a FWD car was my wofes Touran last year when we grounded it in too deep snow.

Well, if we reckon that 3 series weighs about 1500kg and has 50/50 distribution, it has around 750kg on a rear axle, and if mini clubman weighs around 1200kg and has maybe 60/40 distribution, it has around 720kg on front axle, wouldnt it have similar traction? Maybe your volvo v70 was just alot heavier than 3er or c class so it had better traction

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Well, if we reckon that 3 series weighs about 1500kg and has 50/50 distribution, it has around 750kg on a rear axle, and if mini clubman weighs around 1200kg and has maybe 60/40 distribution, it has around 720kg on front axle, wouldnt it have similar traction?

No it wouldn't. Even my rudimentary knowledge of physics knows that it doesn't work like that. The Mini in that case only has 480kg over the undriven wheels. The 3 Series would have 750kg that the rear wheels are trying to "push".

On top of that, it's much easier and more stable to pull something as opposed to drag something. That's why FWD cars are "generally" more stable and easier to drive on the limit if you're an amateur, with a tendency to understeer rather than a RWD car which will oversteer.

I don't get what people are arguing about here. Of course a FWD car is better in the snow than a RWD car. That doesn't mean a RWD car is impossible to drive but it's definitely more difficult.

 

[martinbo]

@KiwiRob. Just get a Forester or Outback with winter tyres and be done.

Look in fairness to KiwiRob - he is right that FWD cars are superior in snow to RWD cars under the same conditions with the same tyres. It is a fact that the weight distribution over the front axle in FWD cars results in the front tyres (the tractive wheels) having a greater frictional coefficient than the rear wheels on a perfectly flat surface.

Of course, as with everything in the beautiful world of motoring there are caveats but let's leave the in-depth analysis for a later. The fact of the matter remains that even with an incline (where a RWD car does gain a traction advantage in normal conditions due to load transfer) in snow, FWD does have the advantage of not having to overcome the inertia of the vehicle mass ahead of the driven wheels. It's why you don't put the huskies behind the sled.

Naturally, tyres play a massive role. We all remember the winter tyre test that EVO conducted some two years back showing that a RWD car with proper winter tyres was superior in snow to an AWD vehicle on regular tyres. Winter tyres have a very specific tread design incorporating sipes which have an interesting and important function. Right, FWD snow advantage debate done and dusted.

The FWD BMW 1er discussion is so much less about the advantage of FWD in the smallest pocket of motoring conditions and much more about the USP that is RWD in a small, compact, delightful, premium-to-drive motoring experience that CANNOT be replicated by a FWD layout. That is the simple and unarguable fact of the matter. A Cooper S may be more fun to drive than a 125i but I will argue that, for me, and so many others the 125i is better to drive in so many of the ways that I have described above.

The simple fact of the matter is that, for all the ignorant and non-enthusiast, couldn't-give-a-toss-about-which-wheels-are-driven types out there, there are still many great reasons why a compact RWD BMW should be offered to customers.

 

[Mr Robert]

I don't think anyone has a problem with the statement that FWD is good in snow. What is utter manure is saying that RWD can't be used at all.

As stated above, this could be a case of New Zeeland snow not functioning like snow elsewhere.

 

[martinbo]

I don't think anyone has a problem with the statement that FWD is good in snow. What is utter manure is saying that RWD can't be used at all.

Oh no, I quite agree with that - hence my reference to the EVO article. What I'm saying is that even though there are some advantages to FWD, ultimately it is the consumer who loses out when a compact BMW stops being RWD. All but the most severely affected Snowbelt customers can go for a good set of winter tyres or xDrive.

 

[AnDrIx1986]

Oh no, I quite agree with that - hence my reference to the EVO article. What I'm saying is that even though there are some advantages to FWD, ultimately it is the consumer who loses out when a compact BMW stops being RWD. All but the most severely affected Snowbelt customers can go for a good set of winter tyres or xDrive.

Word! Ever compared a M135i with RWD and FWD will show, that it's a huge difference. No feeling of scratching the oversteering border is not what BMW stands for...

 

[KiwiRob]

I don't think anyone has a problem with the statement that FWD is good in snow. What is utter manure is saying that RWD can't be used at all.

As stated above, this could be a case of New Zeeland snow not functioning like snow elsewhere.

KiwiRob lives in Norway.

 

[Mr Robert]

KiwiRob lives in Norway.

Dr Dunkel was not aware.

 

[KiwiRob]

The simple fact of the matter is that, for all the ignorant and non-enthusiast, couldn't-give-a-toss-about-which-wheels-are-driven types out there, there are still many great reasons why a compact RWD BMW should be offered to customers.

A compact RWD BMW will still be offered to consumers, it's called the 3 series.

 

[martinbo]

A compact RWD BMW will still be offered to consumers, it's called the 3 series.

I disagree, as history has shown, the 3 Series, like every model range out there grows incrementally with every new iteration.
An F30 is near as dammit the size of the E39 (whilst being lighter) and it's hardly a compact car in the vein of a 1er or 2er Coupe. My 3 series is not a compact car any longer.
A W205 is fractionally shorter than the W124 and has a much bigger wheelbase - the trend is consistent. Smaller models e.g. A3 Sedan now occupy the space once filled by the B5 A4. This is the fact of the scenario.
BMW's compact model is the 1er and now that it's going FWD, consumers looking for that compact, RWD experience are left out. It's irrefutable.

 

[Rolf]

If the FWD 1 series does come out in approx. 2017 then the big test will be when they take one and compare the driving experience to the current RWD 1-series and I bet you the magazines and the public BMW enthusiasts won't think the FWD car is better.

 

[KiwiRob]

BMW's compact model is the 1er and now that it's going FWD, consumers looking for that compact, RWD experience are left out. It's irrefutable.

But I'm betting that BMW have already thought this through, conducted loads of market surveys and found that the number of people who what a compact RWD BMW isn't all that many compared to the numbers who want a compact BMW sedan but don't care which end is driven, which means they can build it on the UKL platform and make more profit per unit. If research discovered that this was not good for the brand they wouldn't be doing it. I have far more faith in BMW knowing what can't and can't work for their brand than a bunch of people posting on internet forums.

 

[martinbo]

KiwiRob, you're blinkered. Do you think we're stupid? Of course BMW has done their research for pete's sake. They're taking the fight to the CLA and A3 using a more profitable platform. Really, we're not battling with this concept.
This is a car forum that goes about its business because there are such things as car enthusiasts. If you don't like or agree with what a "bunch of people posting on internet forums" have to say then why are you here? This whole forum exists because its patrons like cars and are enthusiastic about cars. Heck, some of us even like driving (all forms of it) - who would've thought.

What has been put to you is that the loss of a compact RWD BMW is a loss to the enthusiast consumer. Yes, us bunch of people. The M135i, 118i, M235i, 120d loving people who know why they own and love their RWD compact cars [Because RWD cars are great to drive]. These are the people set out to be alienated. Do you disagree with this still?

The loss of a RWD compact BMW is a loss to the consumer; a certain type of consumer (y'know the bunch of people people who like driving and occasionally post on internet forums) who actually do pay attention to and enjoy the joy of driving. Anyhow, I look forward to all the internet videos of people lift-off oversteering in their UKL 1ers. Couldn't find anything such like on the CLA, though, whereas there are tons of RWD 1er vids - the ones made by people who don't matter.

Nonetheless, congratulations on having more faith in BMW's market research than us bunch of people. This sets you apart as a paragon of automotive thinking - it never occurred to any of us that there may be a business case for a FWD BMW compact sedan.[/sarcasm] It is abundantly clear however that you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that consumers who buy the 1er for what it is - a great-driving compact BMW - will be the ones who lose out.

 

[Beemer B773ER]

Dr Dunkel was not aware.

I guess you didn't do too well playing Where in the World is Carmen San Diego?

 

[Betty Swollocks]

What has been put to you is that the loss of a compact RWD BMW is a loss to the enthusiast consumer.

Yes, and it's sad. We're already having to deal with powerplants moving towards one, single solution now that NA engines are being replaced by forced induction. The last thing we want is the entire drivetrains going the same way. The manual gearbox is slowly disappearing from performance cars too, not that I'm not an advocate of dual-clutch technology. I just think choice is good for the consumer.

With cars extremely similar, product differentiation will increasingly down to marketing.

 

[KiwiRob]

Do you think we're stupid?

do you really want an answer?

I don't see the 1 series as an enthusiasts car, I see it as an entry level budget car which BMW couldn't do properly when first launched, it's been hampered by it's RWD layout from it's launch. Now they have the UKL platform them can build what (i'm sure) the vast majority of buyers want.

 

[Zafiro]

I see it as an entry level budget car which BMW couldn't do properly when first launched, it's been hampered by it's RWD layout from it's launch.

In what way?

I used to own previous version and had it almost for 5 years. My parents owned two from the last generation and currently own the latest 1-series. We all have 100% satisfaction.
We also had the 3-series and 5-series from all generations except the latest 5-series and our 1-series isn't worse than those, just smaller.

 

[martinbo]

do you really want an answer?

By all means - go ahead.

I don't see the 1 series as an enthusiasts car, I see it as an entry level budget car which BMW couldn't do properly when first launched, it's been hampered by it's RWD layout from it's launch. Now they have the UKL platform them can build what (i'm sure) the vast majority of buyers want.

I see that you've now resorted to trolling.