LS [Spy Shots] 2017 Lexus LS

[Carmaker1]

Japanese magazine, Mag-X has caught a test mule of the future Lexus flagship, utilizing the current 40-Series LS body. As usual, Toyota remains very secretive about future product and takes an "indoors" approach to development. As many of us know, Lexus pushed back a fifth generation model 3-4 more years for mysterious reasons, instead releasing a heavily revised fourth generation LS for late 2012 (MY2013).

Biggest dissappointment in my subjective opinion, as it has never been impressive to me and glaring example of many faux redesigns from Toyota.

Much of it pointed to wanting the W222 (above) as a benchmark (instead of W221), timing of model launches, and general product planning aspirations. Likely Akio Toyoda, who assumed his position in June 2009, just months before production of the late 2009 refresh (above) commenced, sent personnel back to the drawing board for the MY2013 LS, as the 2010 unintended acceleration recall debacle unfolded.

That facelift was finished before March 2011, when the disasters occurred. SCOTT27 also hinted at the W222 focus early last year, after seeing a boatload of W222 at Toyota Aichi R&D. Design work ended on the 2017 LS over a year ago, as a running and functioning prototype(s) has been shown in private, for over the last 10 months.

Comments appear to be good, but they may not be exactly objective. Lexus does take roughly 36 months to go from design approval to assembly, as per their own words. The production LC Coupe was finalised by the first half of 2014 and is projected for November 2016. How closely aligned will these two be is the question? Prototypes for both have been testing, but in very deep secret.

Renders of 2007 LS from 2004.

Production 4th gen LS - 2006

Considering that the current generation Lexus LS was unveiled in January 2006 (previewed in October 2005 as LF-Sh), it is very much long in the tooth and becoming uncompetitive. Its side profile (A-to-C pillar) was pretty much designed in 2003, yet will be 13 years old by the time it gets replaced. One can see these renders from early 2004 (above), that give an idea where Toyota was with the current model's development back in early 2004. That's over 11 years ago now.

Toyota plans for there to be a FCEV (fuel cell) variant in addition to hybrid and petrol. In fact, an LS500h trademark was just registered recently. Prior to this, the LC500 and LC500h trademarks were registered for a production version of the LF-LC Concept months ago. This does hint at a 5.0 litre powerplant, but there is also a 3.0L TTV6 planned (thanks ray). That will likely be an LS300t, as well as a non-hybrid LS500. An LS-F is rumoured, so look out for any trademarks filed for that.

I don't really know if the LS500h and LC500h will be 6 Cylinder petrol engines mated to an electric power train, but it seems to be very likely. Both will debut a new RWD application of the TNGA (Toyota New Global Architecture) modular platform. Ignore the renders above, as it will not look like that.

Between this, the new G11, upcoming X360 XJ, W222 facelift (signed off this year), and D5 A8, it will be interesting. Not to mention how Infiniti has their own Q80 plans, that is if they even follow through with them.

 

[ThroughandThrough]

I'm wondering if Toyota's designs for Lexus will stand the test of time...they are becoming more and more garishly futuristic with each upcoming model.

 

[Monster]

I think that applying the new design language on the next LS will not be enough if it keeps the same proportions and profile of the current car. It does look too similar to the average Toyota sedan.

 

[SKY]

Are these leaked pics of the car? The ones wit the hidden front and rear end I mean. Becuase the the side profile is identical, which would mean the 2017 is again a LCI of the 2006 car.

 

[hoffmeister_fan]

Are these leaked pics of the car? The ones wit the hidden front and rear end I mean. Becuase the the side profile is identical, which would mean the 2017 is again a LCI of the 2006 car.

No, supposedly they are mules using the current body.

 

[Keyonte]

You'd think they would be past the initial stages of the pre production and have an actual prototype by now because a 2017MY means it has to be out by the end of next year

 

[Merc1]

The Japanese are very good at hiding cars like this. We won't see this car until it is nearly ready to be shown IMO. I can't wait to see this and the next A8. The new 7er doesn't do anything for me yet. Then Mercedes will have to facelift the W222. Consumer wins.

M

 

[Carmaker1]

I think that applying the new design language on the next LS will not be enough if it keeps the same proportions and profile of the current car. It does look too similar to the average Toyota sedan.

Oh yes, a lot is needed to move this car ahead and not be an also-ran. It is in their best interest for it to have minimal similarities to the current production line-up. A Spindle Grille is expected of course, but borrowing from the new RC, RX, or NX could be a deadly approach.

An LS-F has been subtly confirmed by executive personnel. That may be more of a fully ground-up approach, compared to the previous F models. We'll see though.

Are these leaked pics of the car? The ones wit the hidden front and rear end I mean. Becuase the the side profile is identical, which would mean the 2017 is again a LCI of the 2006 car.

No, but it is the first evidence of anything on this front. If they ever tried that kind of refresh nonsense, they might as well as kill this dinosaur. 18 months ago, Lexus was testing this unusual mule with a much lower roofline. Some people speculated it was a possible 4-door coupe or testing the RWD modular platform.

You'd think they would be past the initial stages of the pre production and have an actual prototype by now because a 2017MY means it has to be out by the end of next year

Yes, as shots of a mule are quite belated. I am not sure where these were spotted, but Toyota has always maintained heavy, if not sole use of private "test world" facilities in Aichi Prefecture and Hokkaido, Japan (as well as other places). I've seen a few development videos in the past on where/how they conduct most of their testing, that even had prototypes testing dated 2 years ahead in some cases.

The LS430 (XF30) was utilized outside of Japan for testing the XF40 LS460 in 2004-05, but one didn't see the XF40 prototypes until September 2005, just before the LF-Sh Concept was unveiled at Tokyo '05.

Usually prototype construction does take some time and in most cases, prototypes must be verified for road use first. Development standards do differ between automotive firms, so what goes at JLR is vastly different from Toyota. Rough shells of a body design can be made to test very early (like for physical crash testing), before the first prototypes are completed.

It is likely that we start seeing real world testing of Japanese offerings at the very end of development, as they make use of elaborate facilities in place of actual roads and public test tracks. It was commented by a Nissan engineer, that they had tested their 2010 Patrol SUV indoors for nearly 2 years, before doing any real world testing that allowed it to be photographed. By doing that, both that and its Infiniti cousin got leaked during separate private showings.

Lexus has been showing this car privately to people already and would've known what it would look like 18 months ago. The 3.0L twin-turbo V6 rumour came from one of them, that saw the car last year at a presentation. Somewhere in Japan, the genuine article is in the midst of a battery of tests, but in JDM RHD form. LHD prototypes will not surface until this summer, being spied probably around fall.

For example, this RC-F mule was seen in these July 2012 spy shots, NX in August 2012, and Lexus RX200t in August 2013. The design freezes occurred in mid-2012 for the RC and NX and mid-2013 for the 2016 RX.

In conclusion, this LS mule is testing a non-petrol powertrain, likely due for release in spring 2017. The pattern seems to be 2 years in advance with certain test mules, but that isn't always a given. Testing of LHD prototypes happens much closer to launch it seems, a reason I have yet to fully comprehend.

The bigger problem, is that Japanese spy photographers are not bold or clever enough, plus magazines would rather have speculative articles, in possibly being fearful of Japanese automakers (very powerful political influence). Many of them do renders of prototypes they've seen and rarely post about them. Imagine if the likes of Autobild supressed spy shots, merely providing renders instead?

Toyota occasionally invites Japanese artists, to secured viewing rooms to see undisguised prototypes, that the artists are required to sketch or render from memory later on. The LS460 received this treatment in 2004.

The Japanese are very good at hiding cars like this. We won't see this car until it is nearly ready to be shown IMO. I can't wait to see this and the next A8. The new 7er doesn't do anything for me yet. Then Mercedes will have to facelift the W222. Consumer wins.

M

Yep, you know it. In their case, you don't exactly see mules because the genuine article isn't ready, but moreover trying to hide it and send something in place of it. Unlike the W222 and W205, this partly also applies to the W213 E-Class. We started seeing that testing quite late from September, despite design being done on it 1.5 years earlier.

One has to think, where there have been cutbacks with the GS-F, RC-F, and IS, is it because of the amount expense being put into this programme and LC coupe? I just discovered the latter's programme code is "950A", while the RC was "777L". Toyota hides things so well, by also having obscure/random development codes.

In Sindelfingen, as we talk about this, any weaknesses are being eliminated with the W222 facelift. Funny how the G11 is not getting the best impressions. We are studying that one closely, as you can't show up to a gun fight with a knife or a machete.

 

[SKY]

@Carmaker1 so you work at MB? Iñm surprissed to read you the G11 is not getting the best impressions. Everything I´ve read on forums seems to be very positive overall.

 

[Carmaker1]

@Carmaker1 so you work at MB? Iñm surprissed to read you the G11 is not getting the best impressions. Everything I´ve read on forums seems to be very positive overall.

Well not MB, but JLR. I have read a lot of comments regarding the G11's design being too evolutionary (same criticism thrown at E38 in 1994). My mother looks forward to its improvements over her F02, but did take some convincing for her to notice changes other than the front end and interior. Being an XJ competitor and more lightweight, it will naturally be competition to our X360. The latter will be out after the D5 A8 and W222 facelift, but can't talk about that really.

 

[hoffmeister_fan]

Regarding the G11, I read mostly good things as well. Styling is evolutionary but well sorted out. Save for some of the chromey bits, it looks like a proper big Bimmer. The car journalists' opinions from driving pre-production cars in France also suggest very good things ahead.

Lexus needs to really step up their game with the LS. When the current LS was introduced it was a good car (first to debut an 8-speed transmission, competitive V8 for its time, well put together, early adopter of rear seat amenities in a mainstream full-size sedan such as full reclining seating, first hybrid ins its class, LED headlights, etc.) with a solid, clean design. But it certainly has been leap-frogged by its competitors. And delaying a fully new car for a heavily revised car has not done it any favors (but I do think it looks very smart in F-sport guise...it has a certain "yakuza chic" to it). They need to offer more powertrain options and more configurable options with an emotional design that's not laughable, especially in this class. And considering their delay probably had to do with fiduciary reasons (i.e. market implosion in the late aughts, eathquake/tsunami, etc....mind you, these are my assumptions, but I'd wager I am not very far off) and sizing up the competitions' new offerings, they can't really screw it up.

@Carmaker, regarding the LS500h, are they planning on pairing their hybrid system with a smaller V8 or V6? Will it be a revised engine or a completely new engine? Naturally aspirated? Will the hybrid system be new as well? Is a fuel cell model still being considered? Sorry bout all the questions, but as you mentioned, it's difficult getting any info on JDM cars.

EDIT: sorry, you addressed some of my questions in your first post, especially regarding fuel cells.

 

[bmwownage]

Lexus won't get to compete with the Germans, except for maybe a few markets. Their best shot i think was with the previous generation of IS but nowadays in terms of styling and everything else, Lexus is simply a high end Japanese maker which, by default, is very Jap and just won't get to the sophistication of the Germans. I think the latest Lexus models are pretty ugly with extreme front and rear ends. They better pay closer attention to Infiniti. Not saying they're inferior, just different product.

 

[Carmaker1]

Speaking of which, my adamant comments about the W222 facelift might be speculative, but these are even photos right here of the W221 facelift from a May 24, 2007 patent filing.

Such patents are usually filed after proper documentation is drawn up for company lawyers or intellectual property management representatives to send to the patent office, which does take time. Basic styling decisions might even go back to January of 2007, 29 months early. The W221 facelift did go on sale in June 2009 (IIRC) and was first spied in early 2008, so we'll see something in 9 months time (I think) for the W222 facelift.

Regarding the G11, I read mostly good things as well. Styling is evolutionary but well sorted out. Save for some of the chromey bits, it looks like a proper big Bimmer. The car journalists' opinions from driving pre-production cars in France also suggest very good things ahead.

Lexus needs to really step up their game with the LS. When the current LS was introduced it was a good car (first to debut an 8-speed transmission, competitive V8 for its time, well put together, early adopter of rear seat amenities in a mainstream full-size sedan such as full reclining seating, first hybrid ins its class, LED headlights, etc.) with a solid, clean design. But it certainly has been leap-frogged by its competitors. And delaying a fully new car for a heavily revised car has not done it any favors (but I do think it looks very smart in F-sport guise...it has a certain "yakuza chic" to it). They need to offer more powertrain options and more configurable options with an emotional design that's not laughable, especially in this class. And considering their delay probably had to do with fiduciary reasons (i.e. market implosion in the late aughts, eathquake/tsunami, etc....mind you, these are my assumptions, but I'd wager I am not very far off) and sizing up the competitions' new offerings, they can't really screw it up.

@Carmaker, regarding the LS500h, are they planning on pairing their hybrid system with a smaller V8 or V6? Will it be a revised engine or a completely new engine? Naturally aspirated? Will the hybrid system be new as well? Is a fuel cell model still being considered? Sorry bout all the questions, but as you mentioned, it's difficult getting any info on JDM cars.

EDIT: sorry, you addressed some of my questions in your first post, especially regarding fuel cells.

I do not dislike the G11, is going to be a very excellent offering. It will be part of my family next year, so I look forward to it. The 5LS might replace the spare F02 (mum's UK car), (if appealing to her) for diversity purposes.

The 2006-09 LS was an excellent offering. The Intelligent Park Assist system unfortunately was not as well laid out as systems from Ford, BMW, and VAG and the LS600h(L) was a terrible proposition. The 2009 refresh of the LS dropped the ball and let it suffer against a new F01, impressive W221 facelift, D4 A8, X351 XJ. The late 2012 facelift should've come 2 years earlier for a late 2010 launch (US MY2011) sans the elaborate Spindle Grille.

Lack of customization of the LS and many Lexus models, is why they lack the prestige of their European counterparts. Powertrain choices are another, but they are hopefully rectifying that. This car is being kept close to vest, as even my UK source in Surrey isn't saying enough to me. Alain Uyttenhoven has had a very big mouth to my great pleasure at least.

The 2013 LS body design changes were already final before the natural disasters in March 2011, so all your suggestions except that are very correct. Toyota product planners, even before Akio Toyoda took over, would've gotten together in 2008 to begin development of a 5th generation LS.

By 2010, it is very clear something changed due to new management (Toyoda) and losses, so delays were made to accomodate a more intensive development programme and work on a massive facelift.

In 2010 anyway, you had a finalised 4GS (since 2009), ES redesign sign-off, design proposal selection for the latest IS, and official mandate of the Spindle Grille design language for all Lexus models. It made sense to keep the car up-to-date, if a planned LS redesign for the 2014 model year was now out of the cards.

The thing is with Toyota, is that during the 2000s massive cost-cutting and lean virtual-only development, resulted in poor quality control. New models going from sign-off to launch within 12-18 months, which made for a mess and lack of prototype testing. From 2007, new Toyota development programmes began implementing a minimum 24-30 month period between design freeze and start of production, plus 4.5 to 6 years for a full development programme. Things take them a very long time now.

As for power trains, don't worry. I understand that some of my posts can be too cluttered, so it might take more than one glance to comprehend what I'm saying. A 3.0L TTV6, a 5.0L V8, and higher output V8 are possible. The Toyota Century V12 flagship will be redesigned in 2017, likely on the same RWD platform. Who knows what that entails.

 

[hoffmeister_fan]

While offering a V12 would be interesting, I think that ship has sailed when they ought to have done in the early 00's to cement their status a serious global player in the luxury market. With increasingly stringent emissions and consumption regulations, it wouldn't behoove them to implement a V12. A diesel option, either with or without hybrid assistanve, would help more and thus give further in-roads into the European markets, which in turn increases their credibility. BMW's superb inline-6 diesel (or their equally superb diesel four with Toyota's hybrid system) would be ideal, but incredibly unlikely. Unless they offer a super-LS with a more bespoke styling, and not a S-Class-to-Maybach transition, then MAYBE a V12 could work, but volumes would still be below that of a S600 or a 760i/iL. A hi-po F-specific V8 would yield higher volumes than a V12. But it would be interesting and very surprising to do a V12...

 

[Carmaker1]

While offering a V12 would be interesting, I think that ship has sailed when they ought to have done in the early 00's to cement their status a serious global player in the luxury market. With increasingly stringent emissions and consumption regulations, it wouldn't behoove them to implement a V12. A diesel option, either with or without hybrid assistanve, would help more and thus give further in-roads into the European markets, which in turn increases their credibility. BMW's superb inline-6 diesel (or their equally superb diesel four with Toyota's hybrid system) would be ideal, but incredibly unlikely. Unless they offer a super-LS with a more bespoke styling, and not a S-Class-to-Maybach transition, then MAYBE a V12 could work, but volumes would still be below that of a S600 or a 760i/iL. A hi-po F-specific V8 would yield higher volumes than a V12. But it would be interesting and very surprising to do a V12...

Doing a Lexus V12 for the early 2000s wouldn't have been possible, but only with the current LS. The 30-Series, a W140 copy, only came in one regular length wheelbase and the 4.3L V8. For the 40-Series LS, that was on the table in 2002-2003. However, they voted instead on the 5.0L V8 hybrid LS600h instead, with the E66 760i/Li as its primary target. It has never been improved since.


In my personal opinion, 12-cylinder powerplants are about refinement, not so much just power. A high-performance V8, is still a V8. It might still be possible with the amount capital they have, but Toyota is too risk-averse. On this project, maybe that's quite different (risk-wise), as was with the LFA.


Akio Toyoda is very deeply invested in this car and wants it to be world-class, as has been stated by various internal sources and a good friend of mine. His daily car is an LS600hL (and custom TS650 TMG), so it would only make sense to have something of your family name, be the best of your company's abilities. The heavily revised Lexus LX SUV will be introduced in Japan this year, partly because it provides him and Japanese Toyota executives direct domestic access to one.


Look at how much effort Dr. Dieter Zetsche collaboratively put into the W222 range. For Infiniti's sake, one would wish Carlos Ghosn reasoned that way. Alan Mulally preferred to own a Lexus LS, than make a truly worthy successor to the Lincoln Town Car or a proper RWD flagship. Mary Barra rides in a chauffeured Escalade, as clearly that's the best GM could really offer her until the CT6 is ready (if it's even good enough).


It is surely a pain to be impatiently waiting for the day you can publicly drive or be driven in a future halo/flagship product of yours, since development takes so long.

 

[Bucketslash11]

Doing a Lexus V12 for the early 2000s wouldn't have been possible, but only with the current LS. The 30-Series, a W140 copy, only came in one regular length wheelbase and the 4.3L V8. For the 40-Series LS, that was on the table in 2002-2003. However, they voted instead on the 5.0L V8 hybrid LS600h instead, with the E66 760i/Li as its primary target. It has never been improved since.


In my personal opinion, 12-cylinder powerplants are about refinement, not so much just power. A high-performance V8, is still a V8. It might still be possible with the amount capital they have, but Toyota is too risk-averse. On this project, maybe that's quite different (risk-wise), as was with the LFA.


Akio Toyoda is very deeply invested in this car and wants it to be world-class, as has been stated by various internal sources and a good friend of mine. His daily car is an LS600hL (and custom TS650 TMG), so it would only make sense to have something of your family name, be the best of your company's abilities. The heavily revised Lexus LX SUV will be introduced in Japan this year, partly because it provides him and Japanese Toyota executives direct domestic access to one.


Look at how much effort Dr. Dieter Zetsche collaboratively put into the W222 range. For Infiniti's sake, one would wish Carlos Ghosn reasoned that way. Alan Mulally preferred to own a Lexus LS, than make a truly worthy successor to the Lincoln Town Car or a proper RWD flagship. Mary Barra rides in a chauffeured Escalade, as clearly that's the best GM could really offer her until the CT6 is ready (if it's even good enough).


It is surely a pain to be impatiently waiting for the day you can publicly drive or be driven in a future halo/flagship product of yours, since development takes so long.

While offering a V12 would be interesting, I think that ship has sailed when they ought to have done in the early 00's to cement their status a serious global player in the luxury market. With increasingly stringent emissions and consumption regulations, it wouldn't behoove them to implement a V12. A diesel option, either with or without hybrid assistanve, would help more and thus give further in-roads into the European markets, which in turn increases their credibility. BMW's superb inline-6 diesel (or their equally superb diesel four with Toyota's hybrid system) would be ideal, but incredibly unlikely. Unless they offer a super-LS with a more bespoke styling, and not a S-Class-to-Maybach transition, then MAYBE a V12 could work, but volumes would still be below that of a S600 or a 760i/iL. A hi-po F-specific V8 would yield higher volumes than a V12. But it would be interesting and very surprising to do a V12...

toyota has made a V12, but it's for a japan exclusive car:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_GZ_engine

 

[SDNR]

This is one thing that left me wondering, Mercedes made a big deal of the W221's facelifted grille ....which had a more pronounced angle (arrow shape) which we first saw on the facelifted W211 (E class) , then they followed with the C class (W204) and pre-facelifted W212 ......only to return to a softer grille for the W222, facelifted W212, and new C class (W205).

 

[hoffmeister_fan]

Doing a Lexus V12 for the early 2000s wouldn't have been possible, but only with the current LS. The 30-Series, a W140 copy, only came in one regular length wheelbase and the 4.3L V8. For the 40-Series LS, that was on the table in 2002-2003. However, they voted instead on the 5.0L V8 hybrid LS600h instead, with the E66 760i/Li as its primary target. It has never been improved since.


In my personal opinion, 12-cylinder powerplants are about refinement, not so much just power. A high-performance V8, is still a V8. It might still be possible with the amount capital they have, but Toyota is too risk-averse. On this project, maybe that's quite different (risk-wise), as was with the LFA.


Akio Toyoda is very deeply invested in this car and wants it to be world-class, as has been stated by various internal sources and a good friend of mine. His daily car is an LS600hL (and custom TS650 TMG), so it would only make sense to have something of your family name, be the best of your company's abilities. The heavily revised Lexus LX SUV will be introduced in Japan this year, partly because it provides him and Japanese Toyota executives direct domestic access to one.


Look at how much effort Dr. Dieter Zetsche collaboratively put into the W222 range. For Infiniti's sake, one would wish Carlos Ghosn reasoned that way. Alan Mulally preferred to own a Lexus LS, than make a truly worthy successor to the Lincoln Town Car or a proper RWD flagship. Mary Barra rides in a chauffeured Escalade, as clearly that's the best GM could really offer her until the CT6 is ready (if it's even good enough).


It is surely a pain to be impatiently waiting for the day you can publicly drive or be driven in a future halo/flagship product of yours, since development takes so long.

toyota has made a V12, but it's for a japan exclusive car:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_GZ_engine

That's why I think using a V12 in the early 00's would have been prudent.
- Toyota had already developed one for their Century flagship and was released in 1997. They should have developed the LS/Excelsior with the foresight of potentially adding it to the 3rd gen line-up that was released in 2000. In the Century, power from the 5.0L V12 was about 300-310 hp with a focus on refinement. I am sure Toyota's engineers could have further developed it to about 480-520 hp, which would have surpassed the 6.0L unit in BMW (440hp) and the 5.5L (493hp) in Mercedes, while maintaining a smooth, linear character.
- Although it would not have been a sales leader, it would have provided credibility and prestige.
- Doing a V12 now makes less sense. Anedoctally, in the States I see even less V12 M-B's and BMW's than I did 10 years ago. And if I do see a V12 M-B, more often than not, it's the perfomance S65 AMG and not the regal S600. In total, I think I've seen a W12 A8 once or twice. Unless you're getting a Bentley Conti or a Roller, 12-cylinder sedans are becoming increasingly rare in the luxury segment. People who are buying high-end M-B's and Audis are gravitating more to the performance-oriented rather than the V12's.

For the LS in the near future, Lexus ought to...
- more powertrain options. A competitive diesel should have been offered yesterday to really have picked up traction in European sales. Engines should range from 2.5-4.5 liters with and without hybrid. And they need to increase their frequency in improving their powertrain. Toyota and, for the most part, most Japanese automakers tend to sit on their hands when it comes to revising their powertrain.
- a performance F version that handles well (unlike the RC-F) but still rides well (like the RC-F). It won't be a sales leader but it will produce good buzz and perception.
- This really applies to Lexus in general: a refined yet expressive style. The spindle grille should be part of its identity but it shouldn't be Lexus' identity. They needed to add other elements unique to them that looks organic without being over the top and forced. And they clearly need to be separate from Toyota's hodge-podge style
- more options to be able to personalize each LS, especially at the high end.
- Their GUI needs to be better implemented and with better graphics. Lexus Remote really has not picked up steam and their graphics are crap. When it comes to GUI, Audi's the benchmark.
- a pet peeve of mine...when using wood in the interior, it should look like wood. Lexus has been using real wood since its inception yet it still looks like plastic.

After all these items (among others that I surely have overlooked, I am sure) have been implemented and implemented well and if it's still economically viable, only then should Lexus pursue a V12 in the LS. I am sure Akio-san would probably love to driven in a Lexus sedan that would be comparable to a modern S-Class or 7er, but I don't think he's making too many business decisions based on his personal want, even if it has his family's name on it. Plus, when he has an LFA at his disposal, I don't think he's shedding too many tears. He's a businessman but also a racer at heart....

As I mentioned the LFA, then again, maybe he is making more decisions based on his personal wants, and, in a sense, that's a good thing. From what I can tell, he definitely wants to make more evocative, appealing cars.

 

[Bucketslash11]

That's why I think using a V12 in the early 00's would have been prudent.
- Toyota had already developed one for their Century flagship and was released in 1997. They should have developed the LS/Excelsior with the foresight of potentially adding it to the 3rd gen line-up that was released in 2000. In the Century, power from the 5.0L V12 was about 300-310 hp with a focus on refinement. I am sure Toyota's engineers could have further developed it to about 480-520 hp, which would have surpassed the 6.0L unit in BMW (440hp) and the 5.5L (493hp) in Mercedes, while maintaining a smooth, linear character.
- Although it would not have been a sales leader, it would have provided credibility and prestige.
- Doing a V12 now makes less sense. Anedoctally, in the States I see even less V12 M-B's and BMW's than I did 10 years ago. And if I do see a V12 M-B, more often than not, it's the perfomance S65 AMG and not the regal S600. In total, I think I've seen a W12 A8 once or twice. Unless you're getting a Bentley Conti or a Roller, 12-cylinder sedans are becoming increasingly rare in the luxury segment. People who are buying high-end M-B's and Audis are gravitating more to the performance-oriented rather than the V12's.

For the LS in the near future, Lexus ought to...
- more powertrain options. A competitive diesel should have been offered yesterday to really have picked up traction in European sales. Engines should range from 2.5-4.5 liters with and without hybrid. And they need to increase their frequency in improving their powertrain. Toyota and, for the most part, most Japanese automakers tend to sit on their hands when it comes to revising their powertrain.
- a performance F version that handles well (unlike the RC-F) but still rides well (like the RC-F). It won't be a sales leader but it will produce good buzz and perception.
- This really applies to Lexus in general: a refined yet expressive style. The spindle grille should be part of its identity but it shouldn't be Lexus' identity. They needed to add other elements unique to them that looks organic without being over the top and forced. And they clearly need to be separate from Toyota's hodge-podge style
- more options to be able to personalize each LS, especially at the high end.
- Their GUI needs to be better implemented and with better graphics. Lexus Remote really has not picked up steam and their graphics are crap. When it comes to GUI, Audi's the benchmark.
- a pet peeve of mine...when using wood in the interior, it should look like wood. Lexus has been using real wood since its inception yet it still looks like plastic.

After all these items (among others that I surely have overlooked, I am sure) have been implemented and implemented well and if it's still economically viable, only then should Lexus pursue a V12 in the LS. I am sure Akio-san would probably love to driven in a Lexus sedan that would be comparable to a modern S-Class or 7er, but I don't think he's making too many business decisions based on his personal want, even if it has his family's name on it. Plus, when he has an LFA at his disposal, I don't think he's shedding too many tears. He's a businessman but also a racer at heart....

As I mentioned the LFA, then again, maybe he is making more decisions based on his personal wants, and, in a sense, that's a good thing. From what I can tell, he definitely wants to make more evocative, appealing cars.

another thing they can do is make the V10 a signature engine in the same way the italians have made the V12 their signature engines and the amercans have made V8 (push-rod) their signature engine

as i see it they can evolve the LFA to a direct successor (FMR) and an indirect successor (RMR), both featuring an evolved V10 and probably hybrid on the RMR of them

 

[hoffmeister_fan]

another thing they can do is make the V10 a signature engine in the same way the italians have made the V12 their signature engines and the amercans have made V8 (push-rod) their signature engine

as i see it they can evolve the LFA to a direct successor (FMR) and an indirect successor (RMR), both featuring an evolved V10 and probably hybrid on the RMR of them

They could, however the V10 found in the LFA is a rather pricy engine at about US$75000 each. They probably want something cheaper to build and not take the financial hit that they took with the LFA. I think Yamaha has stopped building the V10.

In a sedan, you'd want something torquier as well, whereas the 4.8L is a definite screamer but light on torque. The V12, as unlikely as it may be in an LS, is still being built, is probably cheaper to further develop to be up to snuff for modern application, and would provide effortless thrust you'd like to see in a high-end sedan.