Vs Panamera GTS vs F10 M5

[K-A]

Wow would you call the CLS, A7 and 6GC if not 4 door coupé? If you want I can call the 6 Series Gran"Coupé", the "6 Series that is better than the 5 Series". You like that? Why don't you accept the that? If I said the C Class Coupé is not a Coupé but a 2 dooe C Class Sedan you'd cry scandal. Afterall, that is what it is, it has no frameless windows.

There has to be justice, the 6 Series F08 is 4 door coupé and the M3 E30 is a 2 door sedan.

Nope. I don't buy into Marketing schtick.

The CLS is an E-Class with a lower roofline, frameless windows, and bucket seats in the rear. This doesn't make it a Coupe to me at all.

If it had two doors, it would be a Coupe. Right now, it's a swoopy and less roomy version of the basis of the E-Class SEDAN!

 

[Human]

To the hell with all of them. If I was that rich to be considering between Pannys, CLS AMG, M6 GC and the likes, then I'll be buying a Maserati Granturismo/Quattroporte. More troubles, less reliable? For sure, but I insist in the "that rich" part. If I got the money to buy such an expensive car, I'd have the mnoney to fix it.

And then, by buying the Maserati, I'd get the best looking and most special feeling car of the bunch, by a country mile.

Regards!

Question remains, what's next?

Answer: Munich, Germany

Result: Epic

Game-set-match, BMW.

 

[chonkoa]

Nope. I don't buy into Marketing schtick.

The CLS is an E-Class with a lower roofline, frameless windows, and bucket seats in the rear. This doesn't make it a Coupe to me at all.

If it had two doors, it would be a Coupe. Right now, it's a swoopy and less roomy version of the basis of the E-Class SEDAN!

What is a Coupe?

 

[330CIZHP]

What is a Coupe?

Just to throw a little more confusion into the mix. Technically, BMW coupes are sedans (known as '2-door sedans' when BMW first came out with the 1600 and 2002 back in the 70s ). The reason why they are called 2-door sedans is because they are based on sedan chassis and frame. The wheel base is roughly the same to accomodate rear seating for both BMW coupes and sedans with the only thing really separating the coupe from sedan is the frameless door in the coupe and long doors.

In some ways, generally the sedan chassis is more rigidy than the coupe counterpart primarily because of the rigidity the B-pillar provides (as was the case in the E46 3-series coupe and sedan where the sedan was more rigid).

No wonder why the E90 M3 matches the E92 M3 in every measurable performance metric.

A pure coupe is a car that is developed from the ground up to be a 2-door coupe and not based on a sedan chassis.

 

[K-A]

A pure coupe is a car that is developed from the ground up to be a 2-door coupe.

EXACTLY.

That is a real Coupe.

However, in this day and age, with Coupes sharing platforms with Sedans, I'll even personally take a 2-Door as being a Coupe.

If it has 4-Doors, it ain't a Coupe.

 

[chonkoa]

I was hoping someone with a sense of history will answer that question: what is a coupe.
I think the problem with our generation and it will become increasing worse with the coming generations is our utter disregard for history.
With history we will understand the evolution of things.

A coupe by classical definition does not constrain the number of doors a vehicle could have but is defined by the ratio of the panel to the greenhouse.
This ratio is what in classical terms differentiate a Coupe from a Saloon/Sedan.
Over the years different manufacturers have and will continue to have different interpretation and expression of what it is but the fundamentals remains the same.

 

[Human]

^
For a moment there I believed I was reading James May

 

[Guibo]

Just to throw a little more confusion into the mix. Technically, BMW coupes are sedans (known as '2-door sedans' when BMW first came out with the 1600 and 2002 back in the 70s ). The reason why they are called 2-door sedans is because they are based on sedan chassis and frame.
A pure coupe is a car that is developed from the ground up to be a 2-door coupe and not based on a sedan chassis.

But there is a bit of confusion to precede that confusion. The original BMW coupe of modern times (commonly known as the E9 CS coupe) and which gave rise to the original 6-Series was marketed as a coupe, but was based on a sedan platform (of the E3 2800/3.0 Bavaria).

There's no commonly accepted strict definition of a "coupe," but there have undoubtedly been certain characteristics that separate a coupe from a sedan:
2 doors
A sloping rear roofline or window*
Lack of B-pillar

* I think this is where BMW's E30 M3 (and the 2002 that preceded it) could be called in as sedans, as their tall and boxy rooflines extended to the rear window. Many British publications called them saloons too and certain governing bodies (the US Dept of Transportation, for example) may classify a car as a sedan based on interior volume. IMO, the 6GC and CLS are not coupes but, rather, marketing ploys into making people think they are buying into something new; same marketing BS basically that gave rise to BMW's "Sports Activity Vehicle."

 

[Levi68]

But there is a bit of confusion to precede that confusion. The original BMW coupe of modern times (commonly known as the E9 CS coupe) and which gave rise to the original 6-Series was marketed as a coupe, but was based on a sedan platform (of the E3 2800/3.0 Bavaria).

There's no commonly accepted strict definition of a "coupe," but there have undoubtedly been certain characteristics that separate a coupe from a sedan:
2 doors
A sloping rear roofline or window*
Lack of B-pillar

* I think this is where BMW's E30 M3 (and the 2002 that preceded it) could be called in as sedans, as their tall and boxy rooflines extended to the rear window. Many British publications called them saloons too and certain governing bodies (the US Dept of Transportation, for example) may classify a car as a sedan based on interior volume. IMO, the 6GC and CLS are not coupes but, rather, marketing ploys into making people think they are buying into something new; same marketing BS basically that gave rise to BMW's "Sports Activity Vehicle."

Maybe, but fact is "marketing BS" made the 6 GC the best looking sedan, so it is worth buying.

 

[Levi68]

If it has 4-Doors, it ain't a Coupe.

Ok, the CLS and 6 GC are not Coupés, but they are f****** good looking Sedans, that blow the E Class and 5 Series away.

 

[Deckhook]

4dr coupes or not, the bottom line is these cars all visually benefit from a sleeker profile.

 

[K-A]

I was hoping someone with a sense of history will answer that question: what is a coupe.
I think the problem with our generation and it will become increasing worse with the coming generations is our utter disregard for history.
With history we will understand the evolution of things.

A coupe by classical definition does not constrain the number of doors a vehicle could have but is defined by the ratio of the panel to the greenhouse.
This ratio is what in classical terms differentiate a Coupe from a Saloon/Sedan.
Over the years different manufacturers have and will continue to have different interpretation and expression of what it is but the fundamentals remains the same.

So is there a definite "ratio" here that we're talking about? And is it time specific? I.e, in the 80's Coupe's had HUGE greenhouses, so is a 2012 E-Class 4-Door a Coupe and an '87 560 SEC a Sedan, because the new 4-Door E has a much slimmer greenhouse?

Also, would that mean that a Hyundai Sonata is a Coupe? It has a very slim greenhouse. How about a Chrysler 300 or Chevy Malibu? Both have very slim greenhouses, probably slimmer than some new Coupes (for example, slimmer than a new CL's greenhouse, more sheetmetal to greenhouse ratio, I'd think).

Again, I really think there are too many variables. It can't mean simply frameless windows, as a 5 GT would be a Coupe, and so would an old Subaru Legacy. It can't mean bucket seats in the back, or else a Lincoln Navigator would be a Coupe. It can't mean a sloping roofline, or else a Chevy Malibu or Hyundai Sonata (or anything else coming out these days) would be a Coupe. It can't simply mean limited headroom up front, or else a Lexus ES would be a Coupe (dismal frontal headroom), and a 6-Series 2-Door or Porsche 911 wouldn't be a Coupe.

Could it mean all those factors put together? That would mean that the CLS redefined "Coupe", as it bears all those factors. As much as Daimler Marketing would like me to believe that, I don't, and I think that would mean that we're rewriting the rules.

To me, it HAS to be 2-Doors to be a Coupe. Greenhouse to window ratio is far too variable and would mean too many practical Sedans coming out nowadays are Coupes.

Ok, the CLS and 6 GC are not Coupés, but they are f****** good looking Sedans, that blow the E Class and 5 Series away.

I disagree with both of those (prefer the E and 5), because I like a more stately and commanding Sedan rather than a slope-y one (I like slope-y Coupes), but yes, they are in essence more Sedan really. The CLS, for example, the new one, doesn't even look so Coupey anymore. It looks much more Sedan than the admittedly very dramatically "I want to look like a Coupe" original CLS.

 

[Levi68]

So is there a definite "ratio" here that we're talking about? And is it time specific? I.e, in the 80's Coupe's had HUGE greenhouses, so is a 2012 E-Class 4-Door a Coupe and an '87 560 SEC a Sedan, because the new 4-Door E has a much slimmer greenhouse?

Also, would that mean that a Hyundai Sonata is a Coupe? It has a very slim greenhouse. How about a Chrysler 300 or Chevy Malibu? Both have very slim greenhouses, probably slimmer than some new Coupes (for example, slimmer than a new CL's greenhouse, more sheetmetal to greenhouse ratio, I'd think).

Again, I really think there are too many variables. It can't mean simply frameless windows, as a 5 GT would be a Coupe, and so would an old Subaru Legacy. It can't mean bucket seats in the back, or else a Lincoln Navigator would be a Coupe. It can't mean a sloping roofline, or else a Chevy Malibu or Hyundai Sonata (or anything else coming out these days) would be a Coupe. It can't simply mean limited headroom up front, or else a Lexus ES would be a Coupe (dismal frontal headroom), and a 6-Series 2-Door or Porsche 911 wouldn't be a Coupe.

Could it mean all those factors put together? That would mean that the CLS redefined "Coupe", as it bears all those factors. As much as Daimler Marketing would like me to believe that, I don't, and I think that would mean that we're rewriting the rules.

To me, it HAS to be 2-Doors to be a Coupe. Greenhouse to window ratio is far too variable and would mean too many practical Sedans coming out nowadays are Coupes.



I disagree with both of those (prefer the E and 5), because I like a more stately and commanding Sedan rather than a slope-y one (I like slope-y Coupes), but yes, they are in essence more Sedan really. The CLS, for example, the new one, doesn't even look so Coupey anymore. It looks much more Sedan than the admittedly very dramatically "I want to look like a Coupe" original CLS.

Ok, so for you a coupé means a car with two doors. These have two doors and are called coupés.

 

[K-A]

Those are indeed Coupes. Maybe Hatchback Coupe's, but still Coupes. More-so than the CLS which is a clear Sedan in comparison, IMO.

 

[Levi68]

Those are indeed Coupes. Maybe Hatchback Coupe's, but still Coupes. More-so than the CLS which is a clear Sedan in comparison, IMO.

If already IMO the C Coupé is hardly a Coupé, but rather a C Class with 2 door, especially because it has a frame around the windows, so these tho are not coupé. If they are then the 1 Series Hatch 3 door is also a coupé, it even has frameless windows. But what then about the "true" 1 Series Coupé? Looks like BMW has two 1 Series Coupé, one with a trunk and one with a door/hatch.

 

[K-A]

I would just call one a Coupe and the other a Coupe with a Hatchback, or Hatchback Coupe.

The old Foxbody Mustangs were in their most common form when with a Hatchback, and interestingly, instead of calling the Hatchback version a "Hatchback", they called the trunk version a "Notchback".

As for the C-Coupe.... well, I just call that ugly.

 

[Giannis]

Those are indeed Coupes. Maybe Hatchback Coupe's, but still Coupes. More-so than the CLS which is a clear Sedan in comparison, IMO.

They are 2 door hatchbacks.

A coupe has to have a roof line similar to a proper sedan. In my book, a coupe is still a 3-box design.

 

[Sunny]

^What is a 911 then?

'Coupe' to me is a fuzzy term, and everyone has their own definition. To me it is something low slung with a sporty profile. Was strictly 2 door for the longest time, but AM Rapide and 6GC has defnitely muddied that.

 

[Guibo]

If already IMO the C Coupé is hardly a Coupé, but rather a C Class with 2 door, especially because it has a frame around the windows, so these tho are not coupé. If they are then the 1 Series Hatch 3 door is also a coupé, it even has frameless windows. But what then about the "true" 1 Series Coupé? Looks like BMW has two 1 Series Coupé, one with a trunk and one with a door/hatch.

The problem here is to rely on BMW for any reliable classification of a vehicle. We sometimes cannot even rely on them for consistent engine displacement naming conventions.

And as a matter fact, where both of those companies are in a position to spin those vehicles as they see fit (perhaps to convey a sportier image than the "hatchback" name conveys), they both have chosen to call them coupes. In this case, they happen to be right as there is nothing to preclude a 2-door hatchback from also being called a coupe.



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http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/#/new/scirocco/

 

[Sunny]

^Add the M 'coupes', one shooting break and the other one fast back to add to the confusion.