Vs MT H2H: BMW M5 vs Porsche Panamera GTS

[Deckhook]

The fast time for the BMW (like the Porsche) was achieved using launch control. And the procedure to place the M5 into launch control is absolutely the most convoluted process our team has ever encountered. It's supposed to work like this: First, you need to place the seven-speed dual-clutch transmission in manual mode. Then, you hit the little button below the shifter joystick twice to put the transmission into the fastest shift mode. Next, you hold the traction control button down for about 10 seconds to turn all the nannies off. Then you touch the brake pedal lightly with your left foot and with your right hand push the stick forward. Next, release the brake. Finally, you simultaneously jam the throttle to the floor (making sure to really jam it, as the BMW, like the Porsche, has a stupid detent about 90 percent of the way down that you have to kick through), and release the stick. Our quarter-mile specialist Scott Mortara told me that, out of 15 attempts, he got the M5's launch control to work twice. I personally had very similar "success." Meanwhile, in the Panamera GTS, the procedure is to tap the Sport Plus button, hold the brake, floor it, and release the brake.

When will BMW realise that their over complicating things puts them at a major disadvantage in the real world...... or is it a case that they make it this complicated so as to stop people using it and save the cost of transmission repairs under warranty.

Would it not be reasonable to suggest that if any system takes this long to setup then it shouldn't be used in roadtest results.

 

[Mr Robert]

Enthusiasts are looking elsewhere.

 

[klier]

We're clearly seeing the luxriousation of BMW's M cars and BMWs in general. They've heavier, softer riding, quieter and not nearly as sharp as they used to be. The market has spoken and enthusiasts simply don't buy enough cars anymore.

M

Say his again when the F80 M3 launches, PLEASE!

 

[JHF]

Porsche Panamera turbo and S-verion is competor of BMW M5, not Panamera GTS.

 

[Merc1]

Say his again when the F80 M3 launches, PLEASE!

Hopefully the new M3 will buck the trend.


M

 

[Deckhook]

Hopefully the new M3 will buck the trend.


M

It really needs to because I can't see the competition increasing their weight next time round, far from it in fact.

 

[klier]

Hopefully the new M3 will buck the trend.

M

So the M5 being heavy is a trend now?

 

[Merc1]

So the M5 being heavy is a trend now?

Heavier and less of a focused driver's car than before, yeah I'd say it is. Same for 3-Series and Cadillacs outhandling them, yeah BMW is trending in the wrong direction from an enthusiasts point of view, IMO.

M

 

[330CIZHP]

Even before the weight (mind you, E60 also weighed over 4200 lbs),I think it goes back to broader chassis and platform sharing for cost cutting.

The article I think is spot on regarding 5-series sharing its chassis with the 7-series, 5 series GT and the Rolls Royce Ghost, which completely changed the characteristics of the driving dynamics.

For 5-series, it used to be based on 3-series rather than 7-series.

Heavier and less of a focused driver's car than before, yeah I'd say it is. Same for 3-Series and Cadillacs outhandling them, yeah BMW is trending in the wrong direction from an enthusiasts point of view, IMO.

M

 

[Merc1]

Even before the weight (mind you, E60 also weighed over 4200 lbs),I think it goes back to broader chassis and platform sharing for cost cutting.

The article I think is spot on regarding 5-series sharing its chassis with the 7-series, 5 series GT and the Rolls Royce Ghost, which completely changed the characteristics of the driving dynamics.

For 5-series, it used to be based on 3-series rather than 7-series.

Same difference really, the reasoning or reason why isn't the question, the direction is.

Do you have anything saying that the 5 used to be based on the 3-Series? That just doesn't seem right at all. The 5er to me, appeared to be its own car. The previous 5 and the one before that just don't seem like they could have been 3-Series based at all.

M

 

[330CIZHP]

Same difference really, the reasoning or reason why isn't the question, the direction is.

Do you have anything saying that the 5 used to be based on the 3-Series? That just doesn't seem right at all. The 5er to me, appeared to be its own car. The previous 5 and the one before that just don't seem like they could have been 3-Series based at all.

M

Yes, here is the quote on the 535 comparo (Motor Trend):

Much of the 5's air of expensiveness comes from its 7 Series' underpinnings, which, alas, make the 535i feel like its bigger and heavier sibling. It is no longer an upsized 3, but rather a downsized 7.

 

[Sayyaaf]

And to add, it didn't bring prices down this "platform sharing" thing. So actually as customers we got nothing.

 

[Merc1]

Yes, here is the quote on the 535 comparo (Motor Trend):

That doesn't mean anything and what they're referring too is in character, not actual platform shared when it comes to 5 being related to the 3.

Proof would be a BMW official saying the 3 and 5 shared a platform or something more definitive, MT isn't it.

M

 

[Merc1]

And to add, it didn't bring prices down this "platform sharing" thing. So actually as customers we got nothing.

Never thought about this, but I think BMW's (and all other car companies) goal was to just lower internal costs, not save the consumer any money lol. Good point though. Even Audis with all their platform sharing, aren't getting any cheaper, only more expensive. Now we know where the big bad VW profit machine is.

M

 

[K-A]

And to add, it didn't bring prices down this "platform sharing" thing. So actually as customers we got nothing.

Very true. I hate this platform sharing bullsh*t. It's ruined how BMW's drive (if you want BMW's to drive like BMW's), is 110% a cost cutting move, and is far regressive in terms of engineering push than previous platforms (RELATIVE TO TIME RELEASED) which were honed, designed, cared for, and tactfully meant for ONE car. I miss the days when your car was actually its own car and not a re-shelled version of a ton of other cars, with all its engineering focus put into artificial technology to try and accentuate its differences.

 

[mini_cooper4]

Even before the weight (mind you, E60 also weighed over 4200 lbs),I think it goes back to broader chassis and platform sharing for cost cutting.

The article I think is spot on regarding 5-series sharing its chassis with the 7-series, 5 series GT and the Rolls Royce Ghost, which completely changed the characteristics of the driving dynamics.

For 5-series, it used to be based on 3-series rather than 7-series.

Yes the E60 felt more like a bigger 3er and the F10 feels like a smaller 7er (had an M5 E60 and currently drive a 520dM F10)

I think it's better that way and that's how I see it:

1er F20 - 60% sportiness / 40% comfort
3er F30 - 50% sportiness / 50% comfort
5er F10 - 40% sportiness / 60% comfort
7er F01 - 30% sportiness / 70% comfort

*The F30 is the best all-round car in the line up and that's why I think it lacks character as it doesn't shine in one particular area(still a great car).
*I think "smaller 7er" suits the 5er better than "bigger 3er" and I'm glad it's finally that way

 

[330CIZHP]

There is only one person to blame for it - Kay Segler

He single handedly ruined the M brand. His a** needs to fired rightaway.

Very true. I hate this platform sharing bullsh*t. It's ruined how BMW's drive (if you want BMW's to drive like BMW's), is 110% a cost cutting move, and is far regressive in terms of engineering push than previous platforms (RELATIVE TO TIME RELEASED) which were honed, designed, cared for, and tactfully meant for ONE car. I miss the days when your car was actually its own car and not a re-shelled version of a ton of other cars, with all its engineering focus put into artificial technology to try and accentuate its differences.

 

[Merc1]

Very true. I hate this platform sharing bullsh*t. It's ruined how BMW's drive (if you want BMW's to drive like BMW's), is 110% a cost cutting move, and is far regressive in terms of engineering push than previous platforms (RELATIVE TO TIME RELEASED) which were honed, designed, cared for, and tactfully meant for ONE car. I miss the days when your car was actually its own car and not a re-shelled version of a ton of other cars, with all its engineering focus put into artificial technology to try and accentuate its differences.

True it has compromised the sport in BMWs, no doubt about that. The 7er and Rolls should have shared a platform, but the 5 & 6 should have had their own, and the 1 and 3 their own. Basing the 5 on the 7 was a mistake, the 6er I'm happy with, but I wonder how it would drive if it were 500lbs lighter.

Electric steering is also killing the driving experience in new cars also. There is NO feel at all, NONE. Sporty steering now mean less resistance, stiffer, not more feel like it should be.

Welcome to the future.


M

 

[K-A]

It's unfortunate, ain't it. I think the 5 got some much needed comfort, but it should have had its own platform, the 7's platform is just a boat anchorage on it. Driving like the 7 is great, but it should also drive like a "5", basically the 5er has always been the perfect 50/50 between 3 and 7. The fact that the 5 shares a platform all the way up to a Rolls Ghost is pretty ridiculous.... though I don't know for who more.... the Rolls or 5.

When the E39 was released, it was so revolutionary and ahead of its time, they didn't have to enhance the E60's chassis and construction THAT much more (compared to what you usually see after 7 years on the market), yet, when the E60 came out, it STILL was a very cutting edge and high-end form of construction. Lots of aluminum and state of the art developments to give it its own character and identity. The F10 is a natural "improvement" in the universal sense, as it should be, and is far more luxurious, but is drastically more cost cut relative to its time on an engineering and uniqueness basis when it comes to chassis and material selection/construction.

IMO the F30 drove pretty much perfectly how you'd want a modern BMW to drive, but the fact that it's already getting outshone in a dynamics department by competitors comes as a shock even to me. Goes to show BMW's curve when it comes to driving dynamics now.

I just wish they'd cut the chassis sharing out, at least to how extensive the lengths they're doing it. This is one of the reasons I think a 911 and Panamera are worth the money.... yes on specs they might not look so impressive for the numbers, but they're unique, bespoke chassis' and constructions, and that to me is worth paying up for.

I'm very unhappy about electric steering becoming so prevalent too, but everyone's going there.

 

[Merc1]

Well the Rolls certainly doesn't suffer, it rides like butter, it wafts as they say and it actually can steer itself out of the way, a win-win for the Roller IMO.

The 5 on the other hand, not so much its been panned for its dynamics. Even using a scalled down version of the 7er platform as it does, it is still too heavy and unengaging for the enthusiasts or so they say. Oh well.

However chassis sharing is the future and its also the past, a lot of companies have been doing it for years, but the key is doing it right. VW seems to have it down in most cases.

I agree about the Panamera, but the 911 shares a lot with the Boxster, always did up until now. However both both mid and rear engined sports cars, they really have to share a lot, the expense would be extreme if they didn't, but the key is they have the same mission, sporty dynamics. The 5 and 7 don't have the same mission hence the 5 suffering because it is tied to a chassis that was built more for comfort than sport.

Oh well it is what it is.

M