M3/M4 [Official] 2021 BMW M3 and M4 [G80 & G82]

[DeDe]

Still don’t get why BMW went for PZero Corsas for the M5CS instead of the cup 2 .

It's better on wet surfaces.

 

[Centurion]

Excactly, and with all those very long straights in the ring a good exit out of the curves will cut the time considerably.
Anyway, a good driver will be equally fast in an 4WD as an 2WD. We see it with the M4 and we have seen it a lot of times with all generations of 911, and also with other models.

For those unaware, the AWD M3/M4 has superior oil pump to the RWD variant. This ensures that the engine won't be starved of oil during extreme lateral forces.

 

[manuelf]

For those unaware, the AWD M3/M4 has superior oil pump to the RWD variant. This ensures that the engine won't be starved of oil during extreme lateral forces.

Do you have some reference for this? XDrive version does indeed have a different oil sump due to the added front drive shafts, which need to get through ...
But lateral forces in the xDrive version aren't any bigger than with the RWD (see supertest test data), so why should the xDrive have a more capable oil pump? The only explanation I would have: The reworked oil sump design for the xDrive isn't that perfect, so it needs a more capable oil pump to deliver the same result?

 

[manuelf]

Has anybody noticed, that the M4 Competition xDrive is only 18kg heavier than the M240i xDrive??? Astonishing? In the last sport auto they had the G42 on their scales with 1737kg. Now the M4 Comp. xDrive with 1755kg. Not saying, the M4 is a featherweight! Rather that the G42 is unexpectedly heavy?
Yes: ///M did optimize the supertest M4 for weight: Track package (with CCB and bucket seats) and they intentionally left out the laser lights ... which at first glance is weird for an all-in fully equipped test car ... but laserlights afaik add considerably weight at the worst place at the front ...

 

[Centurion]

Do you have some reference for this? XDrive version does indeed have a different oil sump due to the added front drive shafts, which need to get through ...
But lateral forces in the xDrive version aren't any bigger than with the RWD (see supertest test data), so why should the xDrive have a more capable oil pump? The only explanation I would have: The reworked oil sump design for the xDrive isn't that perfect, so it needs a more capable oil pump to deliver the same result?

Has anybody noticed, that the M4 Competition xDrive is only 18kg heavier than the M240i xDrive??? Astonishing? In the last sport auto they had the G42 on their scales with 1737kg. Now the M4 Comp. xDrive with 1755kg. Not saying, the M4 is a featherweight! Rather that the G42 is unexpectedly heavy?

Sadly this has been the case for the past 5-7 years. Nowadays the weight difference between a sedan, coupe and suv of different sizes is smaller than what one might assume.

 

[manuelf]

@Centurion thanks for the link/info. Imho this is typical BMW marketing blabla. Portraying the needed physical adaption of the oil sump for the xDrive as a performance goody
Regarding weight: You are right! It is a typical failure/misconception to deduce the main weight characteristics from the Silhouette of the car/outer sheet metal! As the OEM do have a strong/effective common parts concept/modular system, the things below the sheet metal, which determine most of the weight are crucial. So in the context of G42 M240i xDrive and M4 Comp. xDrive both do have are very similar drive train (I6, ZF8, AWD) ... and the added weight of the M4 regarding reinforced structural stiffness is compensated with the CCBs, bucket seats, lighter cfrp/aluminium parts for roof, front and decklid.

 

[Centurion]

@Centurion thanks for the link/info. Imho this is typical BMW marketing blabla. Portraying the needed physical adaption of the oil sump for the xDrive as a performance goody
Regarding weight: You are right! It is a typical failure/misconception to deduce the main weight characteristics from the Silhouette of the car/outer sheet metal! As the OEM do have a strong/effective common parts concept/modular system, the things below the sheet metal, which determine most of the weight are crucial. So in the context of G42 M240i xDrive and M4 Comp. xDrive both do have are very similar drive train (I6, ZF8, AWD) ... and the added weight of the M4 regarding reinforced structural stiffness is compensated with the CCBs, bucket seats, lighter cfrp/aluminium parts for roof, front and decklid.

For perspective, the i4 which is 3-Series sized, weigh as much as a 7 seater X5.

 

[Big Sam]

Not sure I fully agree. Depending on the performance of torque vectoring, AWD can enable the driver to get on the power soon in the bend and therefore carry more speed.

Right, so you don't agree that 4WD is LESS of an advantage than RWD on a fast circuit than it would be on a slow, twisty circuit? Is that really what you're saying?

For perspective, the i4 which is 3-Series sized, weigh as much as a 7 seater X5.

If we're comparing apples with oranges, a 1959 Mark I Mini Cooper with two tonnes of lead bars on the back seat weighs more than a BMW X7. Who'd have thought?!

 

[Big Sam]

All this debate over 2 seconds on a lap that is 7 minutes and 28 seconds long, and has 154 turns.

The xDrive basically makes very little difference on the 'Ring. The xDrive is 0.4% quicker on a lap of 7 and a half minutes! That's the equivalent of less than three hundredths of a second quicker around the Hockenheim short track. i.e. so small it's impossible to conclude anything, as so many other factors would wipe out such a marginal difference.

A professional racing driver, in dry weather, and in a car that has so much grip that Chris Harris drove it for three days before realising it wasn't 4WD, should be able to get basically the same lap time as an xDrive M3/M4 on a track like the 'Ring.

 

[Centurion]

Right, so you don't agree that 4WD is LESS of an advantage than RWD on a fast circuit than it would be on a slow, twisty circuit? Is that really what you're saying?

It depends on what you consider a fast circuit. To me a fast circuit where AWD has less of an advantage would be Spa, Silverstone and Monza. The ring has an interesting blend of corners but certainly has plenty where a well calibrated AWD system is advantageous for both traction and driver confidence.

 

[Big Sam]

It depends on what you consider a fast circuit. To me a fast circuit where AWD has less of an advantage would be Spa, Silverstone and Monza. The ring has an interesting blend of corners but certainly has plenty where a well calibrated AWD system is advantageous for both traction and driver confidence.

Have you driven on the Nordschleife? It's faster than Spa in terms of speed, and only just behind Silverstone. People see a few corners which are relatively slow, so they think it's a slow circuit, but the reality is the slow sections are few and far between, and they're outnumbered by the many, many fast sections.

In 2018, Porsche took a heavily modified LMP1 car (919 Hybrid) to the 'Ring and set a new lap record of 5 min 19.45 secs, which is an average speed of 235.07 km/h around the 20.830 km circuit. They took the same car to Spa and set a new lap record of 1 min 41.770 secs, which is an average speed of 207.92 km/h. Clearly the Nurburgring is a quicker circuit than Spa.

They didn't take it to Silverstone, but considering the Spa time was less than a second quicker than the previous lap record (Lewis Hamilton in the MB W11 in 2017), and the race lap record of Silverstone is 1 min 27.097 secs (Verstappen, 2020), which is an average speed of 243.77 km/h, it's essentially in the same ballpark.

Porsche smashes all-time Nurburgring record - with onboard video | Autocar

A time of 5min 19.545sec makes Porsche's lap the fastest in Nordschleife history, shattering Stefan Bellof's 1983 lap record of 6min 11.13secs

www.autocar.co.uk

For comparison:

Monza (5.793 km) is 1:18.893 (L Hamilton), average speed of 264.35 km/h

 

[manuelf]

All this debate over 2 seconds on a lap that is 7 minutes and 28 seconds long, and has 154 turns.

The xDrive basically makes very little difference on the 'Ring. The xDrive is 0.4% quicker on a lap of 7 and a half minutes! That's the equivalent of less than three hundredths of a second quicker around the Hockenheim short track. i.e. so small it's impossible to conclude anything, as so many other factors would wipe out such a marginal difference.

A professional racing driver, in dry weather, and in a car that has so much grip that Chris Harris drove it for three days before realising it wasn't 4WD, should be able to get basically the same lap time as an xDrive M3/M4 on a track like the 'Ring.

This is all good and well ... I don't see anybody here, who claims, that the AWD is substantially quicker than RWD or so? Obviously, there are tracks, where the traction advantage of the AWD predominates the weight advantage/high speed accel advantage of the RWD and vice versa. In the case of almost pro level drivers. If you read the statements of CG (and put the track times aside) it is very clear, that 99% of M4 drivers will be clearly quicker with the AWD variant. If even a semi-pro driver like CG admits, that the AWD is so much more stable/neutral and therefore giving so much fore confidence to the driver ... what do you think, what this means to the general John Doe sporty driver?

 

[Sunny]

All this debate over 2 seconds on a lap that is 7 minutes and 28 seconds long, and has 154 turns

And all most all on this forum (or any forum) will be off 20 secs. But oh, on 2 secs!!! - let us dissect that for next 12 pages cause our livelihood depends on figuring out those 2 secs!!

 

[Big Sam]

This is all good and well ... I don't see anybody here, who claims, that the AWD is substantially quicker than RWD or so? Obviously, there are tracks, where the traction advantage of the AWD predominates the weight advantage/high speed accel advantage of the RWD and vice versa. In the case of almost pro level drivers. If you read the statements of CG (and put the track times aside) it is very clear, that 99% of M4 drivers will be clearly quicker with the AWD variant. If even a semi-pro driver like CG admits, that the AWD is so much more stable/neutral and therefore giving so much fore confidence to the driver ... what do you think, what this means to the general John Doe sporty driver?

It was just a passing comment that on a fast circuit like the Nurburgring, xDrive is neither here nor there.

 

[AndreB]

Give me the AWD version all day long. High powered RWD cars are so dangerous for average drivers, once I almost crashed my AMG GT when I left the car wash, wheels spin like crazy on wet.

 

[SCOTT27]

xDrive for me as I need the grip. In fact when in Switzerland for the annual winter break…The Swiss,German,Italian,French and even Russian M3’s and M4’s were xDrive.

 

[Merc1]

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[J.E]

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[J.E]

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[leylandi]

BMW M3 CS Drops Heavy Camo, Shows Off Face In New Spy Photos

New spy shots capture the upcoming BMW M3 CS with a lot less camouflage than ever, showing off the sedan’s front and rear fascias.

www.motor1.com