mini_cooper4
Autotechnik Ace
Sorry delete my post as something bugged and started posting 
911 (991) [Official] 2014 Porsche 911 GT3
- Thread starter omoderncultureo
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The Porsche 991 is the seventh generation of the Porsche 911 sports car, produced from September 2011 to December 2019. It was unveiled at the 2011 Frankfurt Motor Show on 15 September as the replacement for the 997.
mini_cooper4
Autotechnik Ace
hoffmeister_fan
Kraftwagen König
Jeez, I feel like a broken record, Levi. One more time...
What are the characteristics of the 991 GT3 that lead you to believe a 6-sp manual would not make sense? Please stick to the 991 GT3 only and not the 997 GT3, the M3, the M4, the LFA, the 918, or any other car except the 991 GT3.
This will be the last time I'll ask this, because I can't figure out a way to ask this any clearer.
Thank you.
What are the characteristics of the 991 GT3 that lead you to believe a 6-sp manual would not make sense? Please stick to the 991 GT3 only and not the 997 GT3, the M3, the M4, the LFA, the 918, or any other car except the 991 GT3.
This will be the last time I'll ask this, because I can't figure out a way to ask this any clearer.
Thank you.
Yes that is true. A friend of a friend did not buy a Porsche because the sales people were very arrgogant and unfriendly. Prosche has to change that (or maybe not).
Is said it already. Manual is "old school". The new 991 GT3 is too technologically advanced to have a manual IMO. Plus to PDK, something you don't want, it has AWS, PTV, PASM, PSM, POSIP, PCCB, PCM and God knows what other PXXX. I like the Honda NSX and like it manual. The new one not in manual, it is just too technologically advanced. Sure the 991 GT3 is a 911 GT3, but not really anymore. It is too perfect for an imperfect gearbox, because of human mistake. I'm not saying the new GT3 is easy to drive an everybody will be Walter Röhrl fast.
Sunny
Premium
Using that logic (as difficult as logic is with you), humans also make mistake with steering, throttle and brakes, so you are also for those functions being automated and imperfect humans being just passive passengers?
ps. For the record, I am no purist, I have no problem with technology that works transparently (RWS being an example), it is when the technology actively starts taking over the driver's functions, I think it defeats the purpose of a "driver's car" like GT3. Leave that for the Turbos and the GTRs.
hoffmeister_fan
Kraftwagen König
All this talk of manual vs auto gearboxes. Do what I do and compromise. Get a manual and then get your passenger to change the gears for you.
mini_cooper4
Autotechnik Ace
There are two reasons why I teach all my GF to change gears with the left hand. First one.. you mentioned already.
Second - I usually sleep on the left side of the bed as it feels more driver oriented and her "gear changes" are crucial
Ultimate Car Guy
Porsche Perfektionist
There are two reasons why I teach all my GF to change gears with the left hand. First one.. you mentioned already.
Second - I usually sleep on the left side of the bed as it feels more driver oriented and her "gear changes" are crucial
She's probably learnt to change gears using only a couple of fingers
mini_cooper4
Autotechnik Ace
She's probably learnt to change gears using only a couple of fingers
Hehe, good one
Not yet.
PC Valkyrie
Headlight Hero
What's wrong with a GT3 that potentially has more track capability than most drivers can handle AND be tolerable/relatively comfortable for the street so that it can be driven more of the time??? To me, that "suspension" button is like the front axle lift option....a practical feature that makes the car more usable on bumpy roads other than a race track. Don't like it?....then keep the car in the stiffest mode ALL the time. Just like you can disable stability/traction control if you want to.
I can understand some people being upset that a manual transmission is not even an option on the new GT3. As a manual driver myself, shifting gears with a clutch pedal IS an experience that can be very enjoyable and satisfying on the open road/track, but can also have downsides in heavy bumper to bumper traffic.
However, all the other complaints I read about in forums (the most vocal from existing 996/997 GT3 owners and self proclaimed driving enthusiasts) about
1) the car being a bit heavier (30kg, I think) than the normal 991 Carrera S,
2) rear wheel steering somehow making the car no longer a proper GT3
3) electronic aids like Porsche Torque Vectoring making the car like a Nissan GTR
4) no Mezger engine making the car no longer a proper GT3, and the new engine having no racing "heritage"
are absolutely ridiculous, in my opinion. Sometimes I think there are some people who simply bash a car because it is "different" from what they currently have or expect, and that if you can't drive a stick, you belong to a lower class of car enthusiasts, not "worthy" of getting a car like the GT3. And for the same reason, why these same people don't like the new GT3 and think it is more like a 911 GTS.
Here are my rebuttals for the above 4 points:
1) 30 kg heavier than a Carrera S?........unless you are a professional driver driving at the limit all the time on a racetrack, who will honestly notice the extra weight (likely from the PDK and RWS system). Maybe even the pro won't notice it.....
2 & 3) RWS and PTV increase agility and cornering ability. It increases pace and decreases laptimes. It's as simple as that. These are engineering solutions to make a driver (of any ability) go faster, just like ABS making stopping more effective and safer than before. Sure, maybe a pro driver may not get as much benefit from these features, but this is still a street car for people of various skill levels that can be enjoyed on a racetrack (as advertised by Porsche). Unless these features impair performance or takes away from the driving experience/enjoyment, then these complaints have no merit. I admit that one unknown is whether the RWS system can hold up reliably during heavy track day driving......time will tell. The comparisons to the Nissan GTR are silly......the 991 GT3 has become a GTR only if the DRIVING EXPERIENCE becomes dulled......and so far the people who have driven don't really say that.
4) As long as the engine enhances the driving experience and accelerates the car as fast as Porsche claims, then why care so much about whether it's based on the old Mezger unit or not?? Do people honestly expect Porsche to keep using a dated design forever?.....The new engine is more powerful, and more fuel efficicent than the previous 997.2 GT3 engine....what is the downside here? And the review so far have nothing but praise for the engine in terms of the driving experience. Again, time will tell whether the new engine will be as reliable/durable during heavy track usage.
I can understand some people being upset that a manual transmission is not even an option on the new GT3. As a manual driver myself, shifting gears with a clutch pedal IS an experience that can be very enjoyable and satisfying on the open road/track, but can also have downsides in heavy bumper to bumper traffic.
However, all the other complaints I read about in forums (the most vocal from existing 996/997 GT3 owners and self proclaimed driving enthusiasts) about
1) the car being a bit heavier (30kg, I think) than the normal 991 Carrera S,
2) rear wheel steering somehow making the car no longer a proper GT3
3) electronic aids like Porsche Torque Vectoring making the car like a Nissan GTR
4) no Mezger engine making the car no longer a proper GT3, and the new engine having no racing "heritage"
are absolutely ridiculous, in my opinion. Sometimes I think there are some people who simply bash a car because it is "different" from what they currently have or expect, and that if you can't drive a stick, you belong to a lower class of car enthusiasts, not "worthy" of getting a car like the GT3. And for the same reason, why these same people don't like the new GT3 and think it is more like a 911 GTS.
Here are my rebuttals for the above 4 points:
1) 30 kg heavier than a Carrera S?........unless you are a professional driver driving at the limit all the time on a racetrack, who will honestly notice the extra weight (likely from the PDK and RWS system). Maybe even the pro won't notice it.....
2 & 3) RWS and PTV increase agility and cornering ability. It increases pace and decreases laptimes. It's as simple as that. These are engineering solutions to make a driver (of any ability) go faster, just like ABS making stopping more effective and safer than before. Sure, maybe a pro driver may not get as much benefit from these features, but this is still a street car for people of various skill levels that can be enjoyed on a racetrack (as advertised by Porsche). Unless these features impair performance or takes away from the driving experience/enjoyment, then these complaints have no merit. I admit that one unknown is whether the RWS system can hold up reliably during heavy track day driving......time will tell. The comparisons to the Nissan GTR are silly......the 991 GT3 has become a GTR only if the DRIVING EXPERIENCE becomes dulled......and so far the people who have driven don't really say that.
4) As long as the engine enhances the driving experience and accelerates the car as fast as Porsche claims, then why care so much about whether it's based on the old Mezger unit or not?? Do people honestly expect Porsche to keep using a dated design forever?.....The new engine is more powerful, and more fuel efficicent than the previous 997.2 GT3 engine....what is the downside here? And the review so far have nothing but praise for the engine in terms of the driving experience. Again, time will tell whether the new engine will be as reliable/durable during heavy track usage.
Sunny
Premium
^All good points PC. Can't say I really disagree with any of them. For what it is worth, here is my (hopefully) nuanced take on them-
1. The car being heavier - Can any one really feel 30kg? Hell no. But at a philosophical level it kind of takes away from the genesis of the GT3 (and the RS brand even way before that) as lightweight versions of the normal cars.
2. RWS - unlike a lot of the "purists", I absolutely have no problem with it.
3. PTV - again I have no problem with it. But I get why the GT3/RS track crowd hates it -it apparently accelerates your brake pad/rotor wear. Moot point for me, but if you are a hardcore track rat, it effects your running costs.
4. Mezger - Yes, Porsche had to stop using those engines at some point. A more worrying prospect for me would have been if Porsche didn't have the wherewithal to come up with another world class engine (and of course they do). The racing heritage is nice - you can boast to your friends about your car sharing the engine with Le Mans winning cars, but outside that pretty useless. At a philosophical level, again considering the GT3's genesis as a homologation special, it would have been nice if Porsche was racing the new engine, but I am guessing that will happen soon.
I think I misplaced my key to Levi's garage of imaginary cars along with the harness for the stable of unicorns.
Well, to be fair even 997 has adjustable dampers. But having said that I agree, 991 interior is more Panamera-ish and less 'stripped out' GT car.
1. The car being heavier - Can any one really feel 30kg? Hell no. But at a philosophical level it kind of takes away from the genesis of the GT3 (and the RS brand even way before that) as lightweight versions of the normal cars.
2. RWS - unlike a lot of the "purists", I absolutely have no problem with it.
3. PTV - again I have no problem with it. But I get why the GT3/RS track crowd hates it -it apparently accelerates your brake pad/rotor wear. Moot point for me, but if you are a hardcore track rat, it effects your running costs.
4. Mezger - Yes, Porsche had to stop using those engines at some point. A more worrying prospect for me would have been if Porsche didn't have the wherewithal to come up with another world class engine (and of course they do). The racing heritage is nice - you can boast to your friends about your car sharing the engine with Le Mans winning cars, but outside that pretty useless. At a philosophical level, again considering the GT3's genesis as a homologation special, it would have been nice if Porsche was racing the new engine, but I am guessing that will happen soon.
I think I misplaced my key to Levi's garage of imaginary cars along with the harness for the stable of unicorns.
A GT3 with comfort "Suspension" button
What are they planning to add for the facelift ? rear seats and entertainment display screen that folds for the kids
The 911 GTx models are beginning to turn into mini panamerasthat's the shock horror news to me and not the pdk.
Well, to be fair even 997 has adjustable dampers. But having said that I agree, 991 interior is more Panamera-ish and less 'stripped out' GT car.
martinbo
Staff member
Excellent ratings from both Sutters and Harris. This GT3 seems to move the game on in a manner commensurate with what the 21st century demands. Would I want a 458 with a manual? Of course not. Why then would I expect any different from a GT3? What would I rather? 997 GT3 RS 4.0 or 991 GT3? I think I'd still opt for the former, and, I'd be bloody stupid for doing so.
Right now, I'm grappling with the most far-reaching change I've ever had to make as an enthusiast driver. I hope I don't make the wrong decision. But the future marches onward, inexorably. The third-pedalled, manually levered car is fast-becoming a plaything of obscurity. Damn shame - it took me thousands of hours to get that fancy footwork working.
Right now, I'm grappling with the most far-reaching change I've ever had to make as an enthusiast driver. I hope I don't make the wrong decision. But the future marches onward, inexorably. The third-pedalled, manually levered car is fast-becoming a plaything of obscurity. Damn shame - it took me thousands of hours to get that fancy footwork working.
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Porsche
Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG, is a German automobile manufacturer
specializing in high-performance sports cars, SUVs, and sedans,
headquartered in Stuttgart, Baden-Württemberg, Germany. Owned by
Volkswagen AG, it was founded in 1931 by Ferdinand Porsche.
In its early days, Porsche was contracted by the German government
to create a vehicle for the masses, which later became the Volkswagen
Beetle. In the late 1940s, Ferdinand's son Ferry Porsche began
building his car, which would result in the Porsche 356.
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