IS/RC [Official] 2014 Lexus IS

[Gianclaudio]

I really love the new IS. In this vid it looks so good in black. This is right now my favorite in this segment, one I'd be really willing to buy over anything else. Unfortunately in EU we don't get the IS 350. But an IS 300h would be fine too.

On a side note, I'm worried about the Giulia. No sure I'd pick it over the IS.

Alex, with all dued respect, where the f*ck have you been?

 

[bombardier01]

This car looks so much better in black color! Really aggressive! Very nice Lexus!

I think i'm falling in love with it..
More here : http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1304_2014_lexus_is_350_sport_first_drive/

 

[Merc1]

I dunno for me, I still see the current car with a new front, rear and rocker panels. It appears to be an extreme facelift like the LS.

M

 

[K-A]

Looks like a Corolla with a samurai suit.

 

[Levi68]

I dunno for me, I still see the current car with a new front, rear and rocker panels. It appears to be an extreme facelift like the LS.

M

In the new Quattroporte, yes there is some Chrysler, but maybe I would not notice it if I would not know it, except for side mirrors and interior layout. But here for the IS, I think you are exaggerating. The proportions or silhoutte (shape) are more or less the same but all the rest is very different. Not a single exterior/interior panel has the same form or size. All windows are different. Maybe except some switches, nothing is the same.

Not telling you must like it. But if so Audi, Porsche and VW have been doing facelifts for a decade now.

 

[Merc1]

In the new Quattroporte, yes there is some Chrysler, but maybe I would not notice it if I would not know it, except for side mirrors and interior layout. But here for the IS, I think you are exaggerating. The proportions or silhoutte (shape) are more or less the same but all the rest is very different. Not a single exterior/interior panel has the same form or size. All windows are different. Maybe except some switches, nothing is the same.

Not telling you must like it. But if so Audi, Porsche and VW have been doing facelifts for a decade now.

Well that is why I said it appears. I won't really know for sure until I see it, or see mine side by side with the new one. I just think they could have come with up something different if its an all new car. Yes a lot of people do facelifts, but then again, a lot do all new cars too, it varies greatly.

M

 

[Merc1]

This car looks so much better in black color! Really aggressive! Very nice Lexus!
View attachment 15013
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I think i'm falling in love with it..
More here : http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1304_2014_lexus_is_350_sport_first_drive/

Pretty good review.

M

 

[330CIZHP]

Different style 18 inch rims (3 different styles available).

 

[EnI]

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Cough!

It's a very engineer-centric POV ... It looks like Toyota bosses & engineers are more obsessed with BMW & especially the 3er than the Lexus buyers are. Same case with Audi - remember the A5 Coupe case ... where engineers developed & set the chassis to be very agile, sporty, almost BMW-like, but the marketing dept. demanded a tone-down since a typical Audi customer in that segment preferred a slight understeer over oversteer. And even BMW have the same issue: with engineers setting the chassis for more agile & sporty ride, but then the marketing guys kill the setting - in favour for more comfy one. Eg. it was the case with 5er, 6er, 7er, X3, X6 etc ...

What if Lexus customers like Lexus for more cushy ride, not for the sportiness? Just look at the Lexus sales chart ... the best selling models are the two vehicles that are the most boat-like driving wise: ES & RX.

Marketing (addressing what CUSTOMERS WANT) is much more important for the business than development (what ENGINEERS WANT & STRIVE TO ACHIEVE) ... Today the gap between customer's & engineer's expectations & dreams is bigger than ever. Since today we live in customer-centric world (therefore marketing-centric world), and no more in engineer-centric world.

Sure it's nice to see some engineering masterpieces ... but if they don't sell well (and sure the price have to be high to cover all the R&D expenses & to at least break even) there's no point ... at least not from business & economic POV. It's a complete waste of resources.

Saying that I'm not sure what Lexus customer in this segment (IS) is really up to. But there is a trend in the segment to go more sporty & more towards 3er (C-class, IS, A4, ATS, Q50 etc) ... yet BMW refines the 3er every time with new Mk. Is 3er really that much sportier that it needs to be refined further?

What I see - not only in automotive world - is a trend towards convergence of customer preferences ... Look at eg. electronic devices ... they are almost identical!!! Regarding UI, even GUI, exterior design, features etc ... Sure the market is still segmented by eg price, performance etc but regarding the sheer functionality of devices & appliances - they are all the same, more or less. And it's happening with cars too ... The core model are becoming more & more vanilla-like: a good compromise between sportiness & comfort - they have to have it all. Today nobody - beside a few hardcore enthusiasts - is ready to buy a "spine-breaking" car - ultra-sporty with ultra-hard suspension. Nor many - globally (OK, US market is still a bit specific here!) - want a boat on wheels: super-cushy with butter-like suspension.

 

[Levi68]

That is the whole reason why car industry is degrading while technology is improving. Car manufactures build cars that people want, but what people want is not the best thing from an engineering perspective. Car manufactures want to have all the clients possible, today there is unfortunately no more specialization. All three german premiums, I'd eve nadd Porsche, are the same. Yes some are lightly better in on area and other in other areas, but they are more or less the same. Everything is so compromised in order to apply to the greates crowd that for me, personally these products lose value. What will be the differences between the next generations A Class, 1 Series, A3 and Golf? For me none. Same value product just built by three different groups. If IS will be very sporty, GS a compromise, and the LS very comfortable, that is then ok. I'm sure Lexus benchmark for the LS is/will be the S Class, just as it is for BMW.

That is the normal cycle to benchmark the car that sells most in each category, epscially when the aim is to have the largest market share, because that is what brings profit. BMW better benchmark their own previous M3 generation, than the new generations M5/M6, which are acceptable from a customer point of view, as they moved up market and are more luxurious and comofrtable, but not from an M engineer point of view.

I have the feeling BMW, just like Mercedes, does not know which way to head. You, and Scott, often contradict yourselves.
The whole car market is changing, Mercedes, while getting new clients (thanks the A Class mostly) is losing their long-term clients (ex. K-A, and if there is one on this small forum, there are many more out their). BMW can get that market and I think that is what they are trying to do. Audi is only percieved "sporty", but this hurts BMW. Another issue is that AWD is more and more popular, compare to RWD, so BMW also has to go that route. Proof is just the numbe of xDrive vehicle available now.


Regarding the new Lexus direction, maybe if this is not what Lexus must do, benchmark BMW's sportiness, I'm am all for it. Right now I'd pick the new IS over the F30 (which is the best in class (except for LEDs), no doubt). It is at M that things are different. Other than the uglyness of the facelifted E Class, and the blandness of the A6, what makes the M5 stand out among the E AMG and RS6, other that is looks better, IMO? Unfortunately nothing. And that is not what I could say during E39 and E60 generations, not to mention E34, even less so, E28, which was the fastest sedan in the world.

 

[EnI]

Today you CAN NOT sell product as "the fastest sedan in class" only. Or "the sportiest sedan ...". Perhaps once that was enough - yet mind the customer pool was much smaller, numbers of sold cars lower etc - but today it is not.

BMW ... and many others ... Yes, when it comes to sporty sedans BMW is usually the benchmark ... And with other coming closer to that benchmark that's usually enough for many customers to stay at their brand and not migrating to BMW ... And BMW has to do the same: address some needs (eg. for more refined ride; more cabin & boot space etc) to prevent customers from migrating to other brands. Same case eg. with AWD ... which is extremely popular & crucial in some markets & regions. It would be stupid to ignore such demand - especially when the absence of AWD is the only deal-breaker.

Yes, it's a fierce battle today among car-makers. In every segment. Especially due to small differences - sometimes so small an average customer hardly detect any difference at all.

Lexus ... IS - sporty, GS - a good compromise, LS - comfortable ... It's not that simple. People demand a holistic product in every segment ... a master of all trades. Sure in some segments a hint of more sportiness (or more comfort on the other side) is in demand. But every vehicle has to deliver a proper ride to - to be comfortable for daily driving.

Sure some cars got raving reviews in the media ... but that doesn't guarantee a sales success. Customers do not necessarily buy the best product! But the product THEY BELIEVE is the best! For them in particular ... And many times the preferences of automotive journalists differ from the preferences of an average customer. Eg. hard & fast acceleration, abrupt braking, drifting, high g-force etc ... Only a tiny minority of customers care about that! Perhaps a bit more in the case of niche ultrasports cars.

But certainly every brand & every product has to be positioned - against its rival. And marketing dept's task is to define key differentiation factors / features.

And to me it's quite pathetic that a certain product is defined (even officially!) as an attempt to emulate the rivaling product. OK, some degree of benchmarking is OK but it's hardly enough to define & position the product.

 

[Levi68]

I think in case of the IS, Lexus only tried to improve its sportiness, it does not try to emulate the 3 Series as do the C Class, A4, Q50, ATS and others. There was a clear focus on only one aspect, not the whole car as other do. And, if to talk about benchamrking, I think toyota is really good at it. I have the feeling they did usually do not do that. When they do it they specify it. The GT86 benchmarked the Cayman, I can say they did well. I doubt they have not succeeded with the new IS, and doubt they will not succeed with the next LS.

I know they is a need for of compromise, and even more than a compromise, because it must not be the middle, but two extremities. Today this is possible thanks to advance in technology. But as BMW's new challenge is, with the new RWD modulable platform, IMO there must be more focus on sportiness than on comfort. It is easier to make a sporty chassis more comfortable than a comfortable chassis more sporty.

 

[Human]

TOYOTA/LEXUS going for the longest front overhang award!?

 

[Tumbo]

This car looks so much better in black color! Really aggressive! Very nice Lexus!

That's because the color covers the horrible design of the headlights. In this color, indeed, it does look good.
I can't help of posting this...

ehm ehm

 

[Levi68]

I can't help of posting this...

ehm ehm

I can't help of posting this...

ehm ehm

 

[Tumbo]

I can't help of posting this...
View attachment 15033
ehm ehm

Now what does that beutiful 4 series concept have to do with the ugly IS, nor the RS6 Avant that I posted the picture of? If you didnt get my point I wanted to point out that Lexus ran out of ideas, and had to do a big grille, in a very ugly way though. And I posted the trendsetter and king of big grilles as a comparo.

 

[Levi68]

Now what does that beutiful 4 series concept have to do with the ugly IS, nor the RS6 Avant that I posted the picture of? If you didnt get my point I wanted to point out that Lexus ran out of ideas, and had to do a big grille, in a very ugly way though. And I posted the trendsetter and king of big grilles as a comparo.

I'm sorry, both have their qualities. Right now I'd pick an IS 350 (if available in EU) over a 335i. But this because the 159 is a total fail from a technical point of view, while design wise nothing beats it in this segment.

 

[Giannis]

Today you CAN NOT sell product as "the fastest sedan in class" only. Or "the sportiest sedan ...". Perhaps once that was enough - yet mind the customer pool was much smaller, numbers of sold cars lower etc - but today it is not.

I agree with this one. But the holistic approach, the "master of all trades" as you called it, isn't the way to go, either. If all offers of a segment tend to offer what the average client wants, then there will be no differentiation. In what way will, in the end, product A differ to product B? Badge culture and heritage? What marketing will make people to believe, or there will be an actual, mechanical, engineering difference?

I can't understand this tendency to the average. How can one expect a car to be able to do everything? Or how can a certain brand expect their loyal customers to pay more in order to get a product that was made according to the brand's original values? Yes, I am hinting at BMW.

BMW ... and many others ... Yes, when it comes to sporty sedans BMW is usually the benchmark ... And with other coming closer to that benchmark that's usually enough for many customers to stay at their brand and not migrating to BMW ... And BMW has to do the same: address some needs (eg. for more refined ride; more cabin & boot space etc) to prevent customers from migrating to other brands. Same case eg. with AWD ... which is extremely popular & crucial in some markets & regions. It would be stupid to ignore such demand - especially when the absence of AWD is the only deal-breaker.

I do agree with the AWD issue and I almost agree with the benchmarking. There should be a number of reasons why product A sells better that product B, so product B's manufacturer has to find out what product A's manufacturer does better than him.

As for BMW's benchmarking, I don't know what they base their research on. They certainly don't base it on their older models. Or I have a very very different theory from the average customer.

On the other hand, how hard is it that instead of the (stupid) lines, BMW offers too basic lines, and then maybe a couple more sub-lines: You would start with Comfort/Luxury and Sport Line, so that you would choose how comfortable or handling-oriented your suspension would be, how presise your steering will be, how economy oriented will you engine mapping be. Then you could choose your visual and equipment package, the gizmo package and all that crap that tend to make drivers not focus on the actual driving experience, but the "apps" that come with it.

Yes, it's a fierce battle today among car-makers. In every segment. Especially due to small differences - sometimes so small an average customer hardly detect any difference at all.

As both an end-customer and an engineer, I couldn't care less. The competition between brands is not my problem. I like reading about it, thinking about it, understanding it, but when the time comes to buy myself a car, I don't give a #@$^ about the competition. I just want to find what I want and buy it, hoping for a reasonable price.

On the other hand, and I am blaming it in my field of studies (thank God I didn't major in Arts) I can find a hundred of small details that make me mad and I would, honestly, be willing to pay more, to see them done better.

I guess this is just nitpicking that the average customer doesn't care about. But does this mean that these details don't matter at all? An example would be the sound insulation in the rear parcel shelf (or whatever it's called) of the BMW E46 series. It's not bad. It's just stupid. And the only way to stop it from making squeeking noises is to stuff some tennis balls between the insulation and the metal frame...

Lexus ... IS - sporty, GS - a good compromise, LS - comfortable ... It's not that simple. People demand a holistic product in every segment ... a master of all trades. Sure in some segments a hint of more sportiness (or more comfort on the other side) is in demand. But every vehicle has to deliver a proper ride to - to be comfortable for daily driving.

So, how is "a hint of sportiness" defined?

IMO it can't be measured using any numbers. It's not the absolute maximum g in acceleration, or any lap-time around a track. I believe it's in the feeling of controls (steering, engine, etc) and the effectiveness of the car's handling components: Suspension geometry, tuning, etc.

Older BMWs were truly great in those fields. Recent Bimmers are obviously softer. I tend to believe that "a hint of sportiness" is exactly that: What's left from the sportiness of the good old times.

Sure some cars got raving reviews in the media ... but that doesn't guarantee a sales success. Customers do not necessarily buy the best product! But the product THEY BELIEVE is the best! For them in particular ... And many times the preferences of automotive journalists differ from the preferences of an average customer. Eg. hard & fast acceleration, abrupt braking, drifting, high g-force etc ... Only a tiny minority of customers care about that! Perhaps a bit more in the case of niche ultrasports cars.

I don't believe there's such a thing as a "best product". On the other hand, I believe thee a best product for each individual's needs. For example, there do exist people who buy Volvo's, even though it's what EVO's authors laugh about in their lunch break. Then again, there are people who buy low end KIAs because they are cheap. Then there are people who buy Jaguars, just to be different. And then there are those who bought Saabs - those I never understood

But certainly every brand & every product has to be positioned - against its rival. And marketing dept's task is to define key differentiation factors / features.

Why does marketing have to provide the differentiation and not anything/anyone else? Who says that BMW has to become softer and MB sportier?

Today, I find extremely difficult to choose the german sedan that does everything best. Also, it's impossible to find a trully sporty or comfortable one. If you asked me the same question 10 years ago, I'd say that if you want sportiness, get a Bimmer. If you want comfort, get an MB. If you want everything, go ask somebody else.

That is the whole reason why car industry is degrading while technology is improving. Car manufactures build cars that people want, but what people want is not the best thing from an engineering perspective.

I wouldn't express it better myself. I agree with every word.

 

[Levi68]

So, how is "a hint of sportiness" defined?

That is the part I like in the vid, where the chief engineer says they had to define what "fun to drive" means. Such a scientific approach to a sense, a non-tangible feeling, is the right way of getting good results. I'm amazed such a question came up, and was consciously thought over.

 

[deity]

The whole 'master of all trades' comes along with the assumption that it is not the 'average of all trades'. What car manufacturers are trying to do today is what every corporation aspires to do. They wish to make a product which covers all the bases. Of course, it won't always be done, but it has been tried to a great deal of success.

Let's leave the automotive world for a moment and take a look at the smartphone. Yes, it doesn't holistically replace a computer-and let's assume it never will- but it certainly changed what a computer is for and what a phone is for. Before the smartphone, people brought around point and shoots, maps of the city, books, 'dumbphones', portable gaming devices, and so much more. It has all been replaced with the phone. If phones were to adopt the presented way of thinking, there would still be phones specifically marketed as ones good at taking pictures, or devices with a really good keyboard. The reason why there has been such a massive amount of innovation in this field is because the industry all wanted to make a device that could do everything.

In what way will products differentiate? It's not easy to be the master of all trades. As many of you have noticed, it's very difficult to engineer a car which can do all that. BMWs are getting softer, yes, but I have also seen many complaints about them deviating ever so slightly from sportiness. See, there's always a trade off. The new E63-S for example: it's dynamically closer and closer to the M5 (arguably on par) but it's a harsher ride. Five years ago? Even AMG was soft and floaty.

The Gs3 and iPhone 5 are perhaps leaders of the smartphone market right now. They seem to be able to handle many things very well- they're great cameras, portable gaming machines, and are pretty talented and making calls and texting too. Why isn't this the case for some Motorolas or LGs? They aren't as masterful at all trades. Even Samsung and Apple aren't ever going to reach 'perfection'. Two products will never reach a stage in which they are so good at everything that they render each other obsolete. This stage of technological perfection will simply never be reached. Will a 911 ever feel as plush and luxurious as a Rolls? Probably not yet. Can you jump into the back of a 911 and be pleasantly chauffeured around? Will a Range Rover ever be able to handle like a Cayman or M3? Unlikely. Even the Golf, which is often praised as 'the only car you will ever need', doesn't satisfy the psychological wants of a human. The only thing manufacturers want is to get very close, or at least have the marketing team convince you they are very close.