Hot! MB, BMW, VW, Audi & Porsche cartel exposed - report
- Thread starter EnI
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Burden of proof falls on the person making the accusation. Until there is proof they did, they didn't.
EnI
Piston Pioneer
Various test by various institutions have been done by now regarding (claimed) diesel engine exhausts ... And by now BMW results have been within the permitted limits. I doubt it's because BMW cheats so well. Eg. some other manufacturers like eg. Opel also passed all the tests. So ... But it's up to you what you want to believe.
It's a perverse logic to expect from the accused subject to prove his innocence - but all until then he's treated as being guilty. Or at least suspected of being guilty. It's not working like that.
There have been many tests done & BMW cars have passed them all. What else do you want?
CrunchSlaughtered
RPM Ruler
BMW will get clean out of this. I'm sure they haven't done any wrong doing. Of course they used doors in the law for the emissions in Europe but that is not their problem. The simple proof that in Europe the law is not effective enough is the fact that the limits for bad emissions in EU and USA were absolutely the same, but BMW used different emissions treatment for their diesel engines in EU and USA, and in USA the HPs were substantially decreased. If the norms are the same, why they should do this?
Call me skeptical but this reads awfully nice and generous for BMW to do so.
klier
Premium
And meanwhile, BMW is the ONLY ONE so far who has officially said they have nothing whatsoever to do with this cartel report.
Take that for what it's worth, and continue the gossip please.
But I'd be more concerned with the cheaters at VAG and Daimler.
Busty
Highway Hunter
HH stole Usain Bolt's move????!?!??! THAT is the true scandal here ...
Concerning the cartel accusation as outlined in the original Spiegel publication ... it comes as no surprise but, as long as there is no better evidence than this on the table, I'll stay calm.
And, I also mentioned that in here repeatedly: the concept of the big German OEMs as acrimonious enemies has never been correct. Of course, there has always been exchange and stuff, partly driven by federal politics. That's what happens if you share main goals that affect millions of citizens.
Granted, I've not really read up on any related recalls, but it seems like BMW are being quite casual about this. One could take this as them simply knowing they've got nothing to worry about, just as one could take Daimler's recall as trying to fix a problem before they're found out and mugged for it... but like I said above... accusations should require proof, until we know, we don't know.
At the time, and that was before Euro 5, they decided to limit AdBlue tank capacity to 8 liters for EU market. With advent of Euro 5, and more with Euro 6, they acknowledged that 8 liters is not sufficient for refill mileage they marketed. And what they did decide? Keep 8 liters tank and just cut AdBlue dosage. Actually it seems that VAG was the company which pushed this, other just followed so that nobody would be suspicious.
It allowed better packaging and saved 80 euros per car.
That's just one example. But IMO there is a reason why Daimler now abandoned diesel market in US. They used similar if not the same system as VAG. For example back then they decided to limit AdBlue tank in US at 16 liters.
Even FCA diesel scandal in US is related to VAG and Bosch. SCR system or better said diesel exhaust entertainment system s made by Bosch and control system software is made by company owned by VAG. It's no wonder that FCA now looks for some other suppliers like Faurecia.
But it's clear that for at least last 20 years they made deals between themselves on technical development, used suppliers... With that they kept costs at bay but also they could blackmail suppliers.
They shared technical data and they were mad at Fiat and Renault why they did not want to share it with them.
It's now clear that Germans gained huge advantage here. They damaged other EU economies and they must pay for that. Punishments is 10% of profit in that period of at least 20 years.
It seems that VAG is the one who confessed all and so they will pay ZERO euros. If not they would pay at least 22 billion euros.
It allowed better packaging and saved 80 euros per car.
That's just one example. But IMO there is a reason why Daimler now abandoned diesel market in US. They used similar if not the same system as VAG. For example back then they decided to limit AdBlue tank in US at 16 liters.
Even FCA diesel scandal in US is related to VAG and Bosch. SCR system or better said diesel exhaust entertainment system s made by Bosch and control system software is made by company owned by VAG. It's no wonder that FCA now looks for some other suppliers like Faurecia.
But it's clear that for at least last 20 years they made deals between themselves on technical development, used suppliers... With that they kept costs at bay but also they could blackmail suppliers.
They shared technical data and they were mad at Fiat and Renault why they did not want to share it with them.
It's now clear that Germans gained huge advantage here. They damaged other EU economies and they must pay for that. Punishments is 10% of profit in that period of at least 20 years.
It seems that VAG is the one who confessed all and so they will pay ZERO euros. If not they would pay at least 22 billion euros.
Giannis
Staff member
Here's an interesting article: Expect smarter engines, more compact aftertreatment from JDPS - SAE International
Back in the days when I was working as a site engineer, the MB trucks we were using were working a minimum of 12h per day and could be working all day long in three shift days. In such work rates, you just can't use electric vehicles, as there's no time for charging.
Back in the days when I was working as a site engineer, the MB trucks we were using were working a minimum of 12h per day and could be working all day long in three shift days. In such work rates, you just can't use electric vehicles, as there's no time for charging.
My previous company actually had some prototype device which can reduce CO2 and N0x emissions by 10% for diesel engines and improve thermal efficiency by around 1% to 5%. It was actually part of my thesis as well, which I will have to dig up.
Not like Audi setting up a factory in Mexico.
SCOTT27
Drift Dynamo
Which is overseas. The real test is the "Brexit MINI EV"
Wolfgang
Kraftwagen König
View attachment 418087
The current situation
by Dieter Zetsche -- linkedin
Let’s not beat around the bush: The automotive industry is currently making headlines – and not good ones. According to last weekend’s media reports, there is a suspicion that several carmakers, including us, together reached agreements in contravention of antitrust law.
Inside and outside our industry, many of you will therefore be asking: “Is any of this true?”
It’s a fact that the European Commission is examining the information it has received on this issue. I know that many of us would like to have more clarity right now. But we are well advised not to participate in speculation.
And the public discussion about diesel engines is continuing. This topic is highly complex - both technically and legally. We have been working on it systematically in internal investigations for a long time, and we are fully cooperating with the authorities.
Regarding the future of the Diesel we’re focused on the innovative strength of our engineers.
Our new diesel engine OM 654 is a good example that technical improvements can achieve more than driving bans. In addition, we took proactive steps last week with the announcement of specific measures. With the software updates, we are making use of the latest findings in this field and from the development of our new engine generation, so that we can significantly reduce the NOx emissions of our Euro 5 and Euro 6 diesel vehicles under normal driving conditions.
Of course, diesel engines have to be assessed in terms of their NOx and CO2 emissions.
But when that is done objectively, it becomes clear that diesel engines are worth fighting for.
That’s why we advocate for them in our customers’ interests. Not because we have to, but because it’s the right thing to do.
With all of this, we want to focus on what really defines our company – above all, the outstanding work of my over 290,000 colleagues!
We recently completed one of the best quarters in our company’s history. Details can be found here. My short version:
Thanks to the team for their great efforts!
And besides our current quarterly figures, there are many good reasons to look forward with confidence: The truck market has bottomed out and the automotive industry is heading for its eighth consecutive record year. We have highly efficient engines that are already fit for the upcoming emission standards. At the same time, our electric offensive is accelerating in all vehicle divisions. Many opportunities lie ahead in connection with the CASE topics. And we are in an excellent position to utilize them.
The most important reason for my confidence is our willingness to change.
Innovation has always been a part of Daimler’s DNA. And it’s not just about performing a bit better in the next quarter. It’s about the car continuing to be what it has been from the start: a declaration of independence. Our founding fathers were striving for independence from horses and carriages. Now, it’s about becoming less dependent on oil or rigid ownership models. We are working to achieve this transformation. That’s our driving force.
But first of all, a lot of you will soon be taking your summer break. I wish you a relaxing vacation!
Sincerely yours,
Dieter Zetsche
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/current-situation-dieter-zetsche
The current situation
by Dieter Zetsche -- linkedin
Let’s not beat around the bush: The automotive industry is currently making headlines – and not good ones. According to last weekend’s media reports, there is a suspicion that several carmakers, including us, together reached agreements in contravention of antitrust law.
Inside and outside our industry, many of you will therefore be asking: “Is any of this true?”
It’s a fact that the European Commission is examining the information it has received on this issue. I know that many of us would like to have more clarity right now. But we are well advised not to participate in speculation.
And the public discussion about diesel engines is continuing. This topic is highly complex - both technically and legally. We have been working on it systematically in internal investigations for a long time, and we are fully cooperating with the authorities.
Regarding the future of the Diesel we’re focused on the innovative strength of our engineers.
Our new diesel engine OM 654 is a good example that technical improvements can achieve more than driving bans. In addition, we took proactive steps last week with the announcement of specific measures. With the software updates, we are making use of the latest findings in this field and from the development of our new engine generation, so that we can significantly reduce the NOx emissions of our Euro 5 and Euro 6 diesel vehicles under normal driving conditions.
Of course, diesel engines have to be assessed in terms of their NOx and CO2 emissions.
But when that is done objectively, it becomes clear that diesel engines are worth fighting for.
That’s why we advocate for them in our customers’ interests. Not because we have to, but because it’s the right thing to do.
With all of this, we want to focus on what really defines our company – above all, the outstanding work of my over 290,000 colleagues!
We recently completed one of the best quarters in our company’s history. Details can be found here. My short version:
- In the past three months, we sold 822,500 cars, trucks, vans and buses – an increase of another 8 percent compared with the strong prior-year period.
- We increased our total revenue by 7 percent to 41.2 billion euros.
- And we improved our EBIT by 15 percent to 3.7 billion euros.
Thanks to the team for their great efforts!
And besides our current quarterly figures, there are many good reasons to look forward with confidence: The truck market has bottomed out and the automotive industry is heading for its eighth consecutive record year. We have highly efficient engines that are already fit for the upcoming emission standards. At the same time, our electric offensive is accelerating in all vehicle divisions. Many opportunities lie ahead in connection with the CASE topics. And we are in an excellent position to utilize them.
The most important reason for my confidence is our willingness to change.
Innovation has always been a part of Daimler’s DNA. And it’s not just about performing a bit better in the next quarter. It’s about the car continuing to be what it has been from the start: a declaration of independence. Our founding fathers were striving for independence from horses and carriages. Now, it’s about becoming less dependent on oil or rigid ownership models. We are working to achieve this transformation. That’s our driving force.
But first of all, a lot of you will soon be taking your summer break. I wish you a relaxing vacation!
Sincerely yours,
Dieter Zetsche
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/current-situation-dieter-zetsche
klier
Premium
Haha, that sounds a whole lot less strong than BMW's statement.
BMW strongly denies, MB is being vague as hell.....the moustache starts talking about sales and what's best for the customer and how many colleagues he has. WTF?
BMW strongly denies, MB is being vague as hell.....the moustache starts talking about sales and what's best for the customer and how many colleagues he has. WTF?
martinbo
Staff member
He actually addresses why he doesn't answer it directly in this statement:
I think it's a pragmatic - though, to some, evasive - response.
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