Hot! MB, BMW, VW, Audi & Porsche cartel exposed - report

[klier]

So apparently Porsche are pulling out of Le Mans/WEC LMP1. Apparently they're not happy with the regs, but I can't help but think it's an offshoot of Dieselgate, just as it was when Audi left.

A friend of mine (with no connection to anything whatsoever) told me Porsche is going to enter F1. I don't know where he got it from but he just told me they are pulling out of LMP1 to enter F1. Would be spectacular.

 

[Matski]

A friend of mine (with no connection to anything whatsoever) told me Porsche is going to enter F1. I don't know where he got it from but he just told me they are pulling out of LMP1 to enter F1. Would be spectacular.

Just my opinion... but that's not going to happen anytime soon... maybe 2021 after the next big engine changes - but it makes no sense for Porsche to enter F1... I'd heard a similar rumour to be fair, but it was that Porsche was going to Formula E.. along with everyone else.

And MB is leaving DTM ... for Formula e. BMW Motorsport is deeply disappointed, and may leave as well. So could Audi. This may be the end of DTM.

They need to iron out the wrinkles of the Class One regulations and get Nissan, Honda and Toyota on board as quickly as possible. This would be the best possible out outcome.

The danger is that they kill it off before spending the money on the new 2.0 Turbo I4's.

There is no place for DTM without manufacturers... so unless all the cars are sold to privateer teams and it becomes more like Dutch Supercar Challenge, I think it's screwed as a series.

 

[Cashmere]

it makes no sense for Porsche to enter F1... I'd heard a similar rumour to be fair, but it was that Porsche was going to Formula E.. along with everyone else.

Agreed. F1 is an expensive sport and besides, the internal combustion engine is on its death bed. Zero sense in entering F1 now. Formula E makes more sense for Porsche as they can trickle down that electric tech into their core products.

 

[Matski]

Agreed. F1 is an expensive sport and besides, the internal combustion engine is on its death bed. Zero sense in entering F1 now. Formula E makes more sense for Porsche as they can trickle down that electric tech into their core products.

This is probably a topic for another thread but - while I think F1 & Porsche is a pointless combo, it's because Porsche is sportscar racing, there is no other brand that has the presence and history that Porsche does in the sportscar categories. Just as Ferrari is linked in its DNA to Formula 1, Porsche is with sportscars - F1 would be nothing but a high profile risk and huge expense.

I don't buy "trickle down" either... the Formula E budgets and requirements are insignificant compared to the Billions in R & D the manufacturers are already putting into EV powertrains... Formula E is about one thing, being seen to be an electric brand, that's it IMHO. Sure, they'll claim a link between the two because it's good for marketing, and the Formula E demographic is the next generation of tweeting, insta'ing, facebooking car buyers.

As for the death of the combustion engine.... not yet... not in motorsport anyway. EV technology simply is not there yet. I'm not anti-EV and there are some great opportunities in motorsport for it... but until the cars can do what ICE cars can, they don't have a hope of taking over. It's such a fundamental shift in the core of the sport... and that won't happen until everything falls into line. Even when that happens I think it will take generations for the petrolhead motorsport fanbase to buy into EV racing in anything like the scale they do with F1, NASCAR, WRC, Le Mans, Touring Cars etc. EV's simply do not produce the sensory experience that ICE cars do. EV's don't suit the circuits that people know and love. The entire industry around motorsport - design, fabrication, safety, maintenance, tuning, even driver skill-set gets turned on its head -- and that won't happen over night.

EV racing does have some really exciting possibilities in both hill-climbing and autocross at the moment, but these are underexploited and not widely popular. There's 4 months to go before the Tesla based EGT series kicks off, and I'm genuinely curious to see what kind of racing it produces - masses of power and torque, and reliance on Mechanical grip... it could be great... though, having seen an EGT giving it some beans at Autosport, I already know it's an underwhelming experience to see one in motion.

 

[Cashmere]

And could the ever-enigmatic Dr. Ing. Piech be somehow involved in all of this commotion ??

I'm fairly certain this entire diesel gate scandal broke out because of Piech and Winterkorn's spat. Piech was the biggest proponent for diesel cars and under his leadership diesel sales grew by 600% in the US alone. Literally a few months after Piech gets ousted, diesel gate breaks out. Knowing Piech's arrogant leadership style, it is easy to see the 78 year old saying "F*ck it, i'm taking the whole ship down with me".

So many parallels between this scandal and Wall Street crashing the economy. Once again, the majority will suffer the consequences of the greed of a few.

 

[Giannis]

I just read in a Greek news site that 22000 Porsche Cayenne and Macan with diesel engines are recalled due to emissions control software.

 

[SCOTT27]

I just read in a Greek news site that 22000 Porsche Cayenne and Macan with diesel engines are recalled due to emissions control software.

They use VAG engines. So it's a mere possibility...

 

[SCOTT27]

I'm fairly certain this entire diesel gate scandal broke out because of Piech and Winterkorn's spat. Piech was the biggest proponent for diesel cars and under his leadership diesel sales grew by 600% in the US alone. Literally a few months after Piech gets ousted, diesel gate breaks out. Knowing Piech's arrogant leadership style, it is easy to see the 78 year old saying "F*ck it, i'm taking the whole ship down with me".

So many parallels between this scandal and Wall Street crashing the economy. Once again, the majority will suffer the consequences of the greed of a few.

What irritates me is that all of this has completely air brushed VW Groups image into a more responsible and environmentally friendly company which. It is constantly lauded and praised for. When you just have to say "Bitch Please" if you were not caught out you will still be doing the same thing.

It sis surprising how this is still entirely relevant even though it is Art imitating life.

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[Cashmere]

I just read in a Greek news site that 22000 Porsche Cayenne and Macan with diesel engines are recalled due to emissions control software.

Also:

Audi is recalling 850K cars: Audi to recall 850,000 diesel cars to update emissions software
Mercedes is recalling 3M cars: Daimler recalls 3 million Mercedes diesel cars for emissions fix

 

[Matski]

. I'd heard a similar rumour to be fair, but it was that Porsche was going to Formula E.. along with everyone else.

... didn't think I'd be proven right quite so quickly...

Porsche set to compete in Formula E from Season 6 – Formula E

 

[Cashmere]

After this scandal, the demise of ICE is going to happen even quicker.

Audi targets 10 billion euros in cost cuts to fund electric-car push

BERLIN (Reuters) - Audi (NSUG.DE) aims to cut costs by 10 billion euros ($12 billion) by 2022 to help fund a shift to electric cars as it seeks to move on after the emissions scandal, sources close to the carmaker said.

Audi, Volkswagen's (VOWG_p.DE) main profit driver, plans to bring five new all-electric models to market in coming years, starting with the e-tron sport-utility vehicle (SUV) to be assembled from 2018 in Brussels.

Despite run-up costs for its electric-car programme, the luxury automaker wants to keep its operating profit margin at 8 percent a year at least, two sources close to Audi said. Its profit margin in the first half of this year was 8.9 percent.

The bulk of the 10 billion cost savings would come from cutting research and development costs, the sources said.

A spokesman at Audi's headquarters in Ingolstadt, Germany, declined comment. German business daily Handelsblatt reported the cost-savings target and profitability plans earlier on Sunday.

Audi also aims to free up funds for investments in zero-emission technology by developing a new production platform with Porsche, allowing both VW premium brands to save money by sharing components and modules.

Audi is grappling with car recalls, prosecutor investigations and persistent criticism from unions and managers over the diesel emissions scandal and its strategy post-dieselgate.

Sources told Reuters on Friday that four of the brand's seven top executives are earmarked for dismissal in the near future. On Sunday, sources said the dismissals were discussed by supervisory board members last Thursday but a formal decision has yet to be taken.

Audi targets 10 billion euros in cost cuts to fund electric-car push: sources

 

[Cashmere]

VW executive charged in U.S. emissions probe to plead guilty

Oliver Schmidt, who was chief of Volkswagen's environmental and engineering center in Michigan, has been held since January when he was arrested trying to return to Germany. Schmidt is one of eight current and former executives charged in the U.S. emissions probe.

Schmidt was charged with 11 felony counts and federal prosecutors said earlier this year that he could face a maximum of up to 169 years in prison.

Link: VW executive charged in U.S. emissions probe to plead guilty: court

 

[SCOTT27]

VW executive charged in U.S. emissions probe to plead guilty

Oliver Schmidt, who was chief of Volkswagen's environmental and engineering center in Michigan, has been held since January when he was arrested trying to return to Germany. Schmidt is one of eight current and former executives charged in the U.S. emissions probe.

Schmidt was charged with 11 felony counts and federal prosecutors said earlier this year that he could face a maximum of up to 169 years in prison.

Link: VW executive charged in U.S. emissions probe to plead guilty: court

Sacrificial lamb.

 

[Beemer B773ER]

Schmidt was charged with 11 felony counts and federal prosecutors said earlier this year that he could face a maximum of up to 169 years in prison.

Dang! Why not have him drive a Toyota Prius for life, that would be more of a punishment than life in prison.

 

[manuelf]

I don't know, if already discussed here in GCF:

Audi - neidisch auf BMW

An internal presentation of Audi engineers has been leaked.
It was created 2012 and then updated throughout 2013 and 2014. It analyzes the competition and their engine technology regarding exhaust gas treatment. Throughout the different documents the engineers repeatedly point out, that the technology and effort spent by BMW is way ahead of the entire competition. The dual mode approach of BMW to use AdBlue and a NOx storage catalytic converter is effective, expensive, but leading.
Those engineers in those documents repeatedly warn, that this development can be a severe competitive disadvantage.
The headline of the news article is: Audi - envious of BMW.
This really causes uproar here

 

[SCOTT27]

I don't know, if already discussed here in GCF:

Audi - neidisch auf BMW

An internal presentation of Audi engineers has been leaked.
It was created 2012 and then updated throughout 2013 and 2014. It analyzes the competition and their engine technology regarding exhaust gas treatment. Throughout the different documents the engineers repeatedly point out, that the technology and effort spent by BMW is way ahead of the entire competition. The dual mode approach of BMW to use AdBlue and a NOx storage catalytic converter is effective, expensive, but leading.
Those engineers in those documents repeatedly warn, that this development can be a severe competitive disadvantage.
The headline of the news article is: Audi - envious of BMW.
This really causes uproar here

Yes it more or less confirms Norbert Reithofers public announcement.
"We know what "they" are doing,Because we are doing it"

 

[EnI]

I don't know, if already discussed here in GCF:

Audi - neidisch auf BMW

An internal presentation of Audi engineers has been leaked.
It was created 2012 and then updated throughout 2013 and 2014. It analyzes the competition and their engine technology regarding exhaust gas treatment. Throughout the different documents the engineers repeatedly point out, that the technology and effort spent by BMW is way ahead of the entire competition. The dual mode approach of BMW to use AdBlue and a NOx storage catalytic converter is effective, expensive, but leading.
Those engineers in those documents repeatedly warn, that this development can be a severe competitive disadvantage.
The headline of the news article is: Audi - envious of BMW.
This really causes uproar here

So, this confirms BMW's press release from few days ago:

BMW's "Clean Diesel" tech is complex & expensive but best in the industry. Therefore the (independent) NOx exhaust emissions test results have shown no irregularities (aka exposed cheating) and produced very good real life results (although not as good as promised by the manufacturer yet within allowed margins).

So, others got scared and used some illegal shortcuts to be on par with BMW engines and to meet the NOx emission standards. And so completely ruined diesel's reputation.

Anybody ever doubted BMW's expertise in engines? They are not called Bayerische MOTOREN Werke for nothing.

But still... The cartel... Perhaps this leaked report from Audi shows there has been no collusion between 5 German carmakers actually , at least not when it came to important tech that led to significant advantage.

But if the cartel is still somehow proven fines should definitely be imposed. Best in such way to boost usage of Clean energy in transportation.

 

[Deleted member 1071]

In further news:

Yesterdays' highly publicized "Diesel-Gipfel" ("Diesel Summit) held in Berlin featured various German car company CEOs' and automotive union representatives sitting opposite of German politicians and environmentalists.

From my (apparently quite distant) vantage point as a consumer and generally politically-interested citizen, I found myself recalling the lyrics of the refrain from that early 1970s' hit by Steelers' Wheel ("...Clowns to the left of me-Jokers to the right-Here I am, stuck in the middle with you.").

 

[Deleted member 25]

Sorry can someone explain to me what is the story about this cartel ? What are they accused of ? regrouping to have better prices ? Isn't that what all of these not so recent now carmakers alliances is for ?

 

[Cashmere]

"...Clowns to the left of me-Jokers to the right-Here I am, stuck in the middle with you.").

R-L Matthias Wissmann, president of the German Automobile Industry Association (VdA), Harald Krueger, CEO of German car maker BMW, Dieter Zetsche, CEO of German car maker Daimler AG and Matthias Mueller, CEO of German car maker Volkswagen meet with German federal ministers to discuss the future of diesel vehicles, after a nearly two-year saga of scandal spread from Volkswagen to others in the sector in Berlin, Germany, August 2, 2017.

Rupert Stadler, CEO of German car maker Audi AG, Herbert Diess, brand manager of German car maker Volkswagen AG, Matthias Mueller, CEO of Volkswagen AG, Dieter Zetsche, CEO of German Mercedes car maker Daimler AG, Harald Krueger, CEO of German car maker BMW meet with German federal ministers to discuss the future of diesel vehicles, after a nearly two-year saga of scandal spread from Volkswagen to others in the sector in Berlin, Germany, August 2, 2017.