Well said, sir
Future of BMW's M Division
- Thread starter EMpower
- Start date
Well said, sir
BimmerToday
Precision Tuner
You haven't followed the WTCC for a long time, have you?
Everybody who knows something about Motorsport knows that the winning team is tremendously dependant on the regulations and on nothing else. You think Diesels are dominating Le Mans because they are better? You think the R8 was as fast as the Porsches at the 24h Nürburgring this year? You think the FWD Seat would be able to beat the BMWs in the WTCC with fair regulations? Motorsport these days is about creating tension and attractive races, not about the old question "Who is the fastest". At the Nürburgring the Porsches have been made heavier and they invented a system that took Porsche the advantage of less fuel-consumption. So in the end they had a close race, but only because the regulations pushed the Audi in the top-league and the Porsches have been slowed down artificially. In the WTCC there are 2.0-litre Turbo-engines running against 2.0-litre NA-engines. This is just stupid. The FIA itself has got a formula to create fair races between turbo and NA-cars. According to this FIA-formula the Seats should have no more than 1175ccm! And now, after beeing pushed to the top by the regulations, the Seats have to get slowed down. But under fair circumstances they would never have been there. Have you counted the regulations and rule-changes that went into action against BMW-dominance, most of them still active? You honestly don't have a clue about the WTCC - which is no problem, but you shouldn't use single facts from there for your arguments if you don't have a tiny little bit of background-knowledge.
AdvEvo
Diesel Dynamiker
Seat man!!!
You want to know what i have driven in turbo cars.
Seat ibiza turbo sold it after 2 mounts i had no fun with it.
Impreza GT turbo
Evo 6
Evo 7 RS
Evo 8.5 RS
All cars tuned up.
RWD atmo cars give so much more fun than the turbo cars. 4 wd cars are fun on snow ice and gravel only if the 4wd setup is like the evo s. Audi rs4 etc are to much understeery.
Please do not talk about WTCC you know nothing about that if i read youre post.
Read bimmertoday post. He knows about racing.
The ultimate choice of a car is RWD setup with a limited slip diff and a high rev atmo. Everything else is overrated in driving dynamics.
Do youreself a favour find a guy who has a M3 CSL. That s how a car should drive.
You want to know what i have driven in turbo cars.
Seat ibiza turbo sold it after 2 mounts i had no fun with it.
Impreza GT turbo
Evo 6
Evo 7 RS
Evo 8.5 RS
All cars tuned up.
RWD atmo cars give so much more fun than the turbo cars. 4 wd cars are fun on snow ice and gravel only if the 4wd setup is like the evo s. Audi rs4 etc are to much understeery.
Please do not talk about WTCC you know nothing about that if i read youre post.
Read bimmertoday post. He knows about racing.
The ultimate choice of a car is RWD setup with a limited slip diff and a high rev atmo. Everything else is overrated in driving dynamics.
Do youreself a favour find a guy who has a M3 CSL. That s how a car should drive.
klier
Premium
More like trying to be a VW. Isn't a Seat usually a bit cheaper than a VW?
Mr Robert
Kraftwagen König
Most importantly, I think they are a bit more lively than the VW it is based on.
Poverty
Oversteer Expert
Everything you have said about SEAT there can be applied to BMW and vice versa. Also its still no where as cut dried as you try to make it out to be also. BMW can always change to turbo units if they so wish also, as SEAT can go back to petrol or NA power.
I take it an audi S3 is also vastly inferior to what BMW offers then also, as my Cupra is basically just a FWD S3. Only difference between my car and the S3 is the lower boost ecu, slightly smaller intercooler,lower weight and no haldex. So basically my car is just a fwd S3, and we all know how the S3 compares to equally priced bmw offering
No disrespect klier, BMWs are also nice portly everyday cars, for balding middle aged men.
Uprated VW's down rated audi's if you talking the leon cupra
Ibiza cupra is a young boys car. Good engine but rubbish Chassis. Uses torsion beam no good for dynamics.
Evos, very good cars, but my remapped cupra is slighly quicker rolling start than the fq 340's, lower weight, less transmission losses. Standing start evos leave me for dead, but then again they will leave rwd cars for dead too.
Impreza GT Turbo is slow.
This whole conversation is not SEAT vs BMW. Different cars, different aims. If I spent alot of time on the track I would not have bought a cupra, but then I wouldnt buy a overpriced BMW either. I would have bought a dedicated track car designed to be so from the word go. Something really quick and mental, something that takes every inch of concentration to drive on the limit.
Is your bmw and factory suplied 1 series race car or have you stripped and modified it yourself?
m3 csl is good but the 911's are better. Im sorry to say but in england there are plenty of guys who have done the whole evo, m3 and then 911 thing, and they all say the 911 is in a completely different league. Driven E46 M3, its not all that. Good, but doesnt live up to the hype in 2009.
My whole point which got steered off course is that the turbo is the way of the future. Your concern about turbos on the racetrack is a fat whallop of torwue midrange through cornering, unnerving the car, and its clear you prefer the power curve of a high revving NA car, but what you must understand is that in 2009 we have the technology to make a turbo car have all the benefits of a high revving NA in the package of a turbo. If you so wish to mimic the power curve of a NA in a turbo you can do so. There are cars out there where the turbo wont tail off at higher revs but keep going strong till the redline. There are guys who have big turbos in their fwd cars, but mimic the power deliver of a NA to help them get the driveability and stop them spinning their wheels with their 700nm of torque. Turbos are the future. You either like it or you dont but its inevitable.
I love comments like this, its great when im on the motorway and some guy in their m3, or 50k merc floors it and I keep up with them and then go past them. The look on their faces.
I always thought 4-5 years ago, when the e46 m3 was king of the hill that I would buy a fast bmw or audi, like a m or rs, but in this day and age the bmw, audis and mercs are all just wayyyyy too heavy. Why would I want to spend 40-50k on a car that will only get beaten by a pesky hothatch on public roads? Granted you get a nice interior, but im a young guy, not a old man, I couldnt care less for those luxuries right now especially when its those luxuries that are turning my favourite cars of the past into fat heavy tanks. 1650kg? No thank you, not my idea of fun. I will get those overweight luxuries once im old, my balls wrinkly and my hair line receding. When the testoserone doesnt flow as rapidly and I have a family to put first.
The only german car I could see myself in today is a porsche 911 or cayman, the r8 v8 isnt fast enough and the v10 overpriced. The rest forget it! Not enough performance for the price, or as the americans say it, bang for buck, is what german cars are not.
If audi do make that s5 anniversario, weight 1400kg all in with rear biasing quattro and a turbo lump that will probably be my next car, if not I will probably just get a TVR, porsche or lotus.
Just dont be mad at me because bmw no longer make real sporty cars, but instead fat overweight luxury pretenders.
EMpower
Autobahn Explorer
First time I have heard that about BMW. That comment is said often in US about Merc Benz.
3-series is BMWs bread and butter and they rule that class...and its age group is 20s-30s. 
NarutoRamen
Kraftwagen König
First time I have heard that about BMW. That comment is said often in US about Merc Benz.
I think in England it's a bit different. I think something along those lines was said on Top Gear a while ago.
Which means absolutely nothing then. Top Gear is a complete joke now.
BMW's are certainly not seen as an old man's car in the UK one bit. They are seen as driven by yuppies or young middle management.
The Seat guy is just trying to wind people up.
Just don't get involved in a battle like this. It's utterly pointless.
martinbo
Staff member
Please don't be too harsh on Poverty. He's just standing his ground after being caned unfairly in the past for not being pro-BMW.
We can't all love BMW and we certainly can't all be forced into thinking that, for performance and dynamics, it's the BMW way or the highway.
In my (now distant past) professional experience, a high-revving naturally aspirated engine is the best recipe for a quick-and-biddable circuit car. The instantaneous throttle response and more linear power delivery gives the car greater throttle adjustability. The driver is able to meter out the exact dose of throttle to achieve the desired accelerative and yaw moment adjustments to fine tune the cornering line.
With that said, I have personally been instructed by and driven with a pukka professional racer who opened my eyes up to the fact that a high-revving turbocharged engine, operating in its boost range, is a devastatingly brutal and exciting track tool. Cars like the EVO and WRX STI can be favourably set up for top flight track use.
Here's the car that Subaru SA and SASOL are campaigning in the local production car champs:
Much of what is deemed optimal for circuit racing and precision is far more influenced by a driver's personal preference and familiarity than actually whether a car is FWD, AWD, RWD, NA or Turbocharged.
Interesting how, for rallying, turbocharging is the induction of choice and RWD is a complete no-no. In this case the driving technique is vastly different and the relationship between throttle, brake and cornering angle-of-attack is, for all intents and purposes, opposite to cornering a fast RWD 130i on a circuit.
Circuit driving is one thing however, but out on public roads I've often seen turbo'd GTIs making mincemeat of cars like WRXs and 130is simply because they're easier to get the most out of quick and early and easier for less experienced drivers to control closer to the limit. That's part of the whole hot hatch attraction. Out on a circuit, approaching 10/10ths FWD cars run out of talent sooner* but on real world roads who dares drive at anything remotely close...?
* (unless you're properly experienced and like a bit of lift-off oversteer and a dab of oppo!
)
We can't all love BMW and we certainly can't all be forced into thinking that, for performance and dynamics, it's the BMW way or the highway.
In my (now distant past) professional experience, a high-revving naturally aspirated engine is the best recipe for a quick-and-biddable circuit car. The instantaneous throttle response and more linear power delivery gives the car greater throttle adjustability. The driver is able to meter out the exact dose of throttle to achieve the desired accelerative and yaw moment adjustments to fine tune the cornering line.
With that said, I have personally been instructed by and driven with a pukka professional racer who opened my eyes up to the fact that a high-revving turbocharged engine, operating in its boost range, is a devastatingly brutal and exciting track tool. Cars like the EVO and WRX STI can be favourably set up for top flight track use.
Here's the car that Subaru SA and SASOL are campaigning in the local production car champs:
Much of what is deemed optimal for circuit racing and precision is far more influenced by a driver's personal preference and familiarity than actually whether a car is FWD, AWD, RWD, NA or Turbocharged.
Interesting how, for rallying, turbocharging is the induction of choice and RWD is a complete no-no. In this case the driving technique is vastly different and the relationship between throttle, brake and cornering angle-of-attack is, for all intents and purposes, opposite to cornering a fast RWD 130i on a circuit.
Circuit driving is one thing however, but out on public roads I've often seen turbo'd GTIs making mincemeat of cars like WRXs and 130is simply because they're easier to get the most out of quick and early and easier for less experienced drivers to control closer to the limit. That's part of the whole hot hatch attraction. Out on a circuit, approaching 10/10ths FWD cars run out of talent sooner* but on real world roads who dares drive at anything remotely close...?
* (unless you're properly experienced and like a bit of lift-off oversteer and a dab of oppo!
)
coolraoul
Torque Titan
Ibiza cupra is a young boys car. Good engine but rubbish Chassis. Uses torsion beam no good for dynamics.
Evos, very good cars, but my remapped cupra is slighly quicker rolling start than the fq 340's, lower weight, less transmission losses. Standing start evos leave me for dead, but then again they will leave rwd cars for dead too.
Impreza GT Turbo is slow.
This whole conversation is not SEAT vs BMW. Different cars, different aims. If I spent alot of time on the track I would not have bought a cupra, but then I wouldnt buy a overpriced BMW either. I would have bought a dedicated track car designed to be so from the word go. Something really quick and mental, something that takes every inch of concentration to drive on the limit.
Is your bmw and factory suplied 1 series race car or have you stripped and modified it yourself?
m3 csl is good but the 911's are better. Im sorry to say but in england there are plenty of guys who have done the whole evo, m3 and then 911 thing, and they all say the 911 is in a completely different league. Driven E46 M3, its not all that. Good, but doesnt live up to the hype in 2009.
My whole point which got steered off course is that the turbo is the way of the future. Your concern about turbos on the racetrack is a fat whallop of torwue midrange through cornering, unnerving the car, and its clear you prefer the power curve of a high revving NA car, but what you must understand is that in 2009 we have the technology to make a turbo car have all the benefits of a high revving NA in the package of a turbo. If you so wish to mimic the power curve of a NA in a turbo you can do so. There are cars out there where the turbo wont tail off at higher revs but keep going strong till the redline. There are guys who have big turbos in their fwd cars, but mimic the power deliver of a NA to help them get the driveability and stop them spinning their wheels with their 700nm of torque. Turbos are the future. You either like it or you dont but its inevitable.
I love comments like this, its great when im on the motorway and some guy in their m3, or 50k merc floors it and I keep up with them and then go past them. The look on their faces.
I always thought 4-5 years ago, when the e46 m3 was king of the hill that I would buy a fast bmw or audi, like a m or rs, but in this day and age the bmw, audis and mercs are all just wayyyyy too heavy. Why would I want to spend 40-50k on a car that will only get beaten by a pesky hothatch on public roads? Granted you get a nice interior, but im a young guy, not a old man, I couldnt care less for those luxuries right now especially when its those luxuries that are turning my favourite cars of the past into fat heavy tanks. 1650kg? No thank you, not my idea of fun. I will get those overweight luxuries once im old, my balls wrinkly and my hair line receding. When the testoserone doesnt flow as rapidly and I have a family to put first.
The only german car I could see myself in today is a porsche 911 or cayman, the r8 v8 isnt fast enough and the v10 overpriced. The rest forget it! Not enough performance for the price, or as the americans say it, bang for buck, is what german cars are not.
If audi do make that s5 anniversario, weight 1400kg all in with rear biasing quattro and a turbo lump that will probably be my next car, if not I will probably just get a TVR, porsche or lotus.
Just dont be mad at me because bmw no longer make real sporty cars, but instead fat overweight luxury pretenders.
You seem to reduce driving pleasure to acceleration. It's your right, I repect that, if what you like is power.
However, dissing the e46 M3 for being heavy and slower... I drove several M3, and even if I do prefer the e36, the e46 still is an absolutely fantastic machine. For the price, you just cannot get anything close to it: the Evos/Sub are AWD and 4-pot, 911 more expensive, the rest is just so outclassed.
The I6 is a work of art, the noise is gorgeous, the power delivery smooth or brutal if you want, the feeling in the revvs devilish. The steering feel, while inferior to the e36, stays miles ahead of anything FWD, let alone an overmotorized Cupra. The fancy LSD almost allows your grandma to make a powerdrift, so smooth and foreseeable it is.
You may prefer a more powerful car, the feel of a big turbo, but the M3 is far from overrated. It is awesome. It is one of those cars where the motor is by no way more poweful than the chassis, the car is a whole and feels so composed, so natural, so balanced, so trust-inspiring, that you can have reaal fun with it.
This is, for the price, one hell of a machine. The 911 may be the superior car, it is considerably pricier, less practical, less family-friendly. And needs more experience to get the best out of it.
coolraoul
Torque Titan
Please don't be too harsh on Poverty. He's just standing his ground after being caned unfairly in the past for not being pro-BMW.
We can't all love BMW and we certainly can't all be forced into thinking that, for performance and dynamics, it's the BMW way or the highway.
In my (now distant past) professional experience, a high-revving naturally aspirated engine is the best recipe for a quick-and-biddable circuit car. The instantaneous throttle response and more linear power delivery gives the car greater throttle adjustability. The driver is able to meter out the exact dose of throttle to achieve the desired accelerative and yaw moment adjustments to fine tune the cornering line.
With that said, I have personally been instructed by and driven with a pukka professional racer who open my eyes up to the fact that a high-revving turbocharged engine, operating in its boost range, is a devastatingly brutal and exciting track tool. Cars like the EVO and WRX STI can be favourably set up for top flight track use.
Here's the car that Subaru SA and SASOL are campaigning in the local production car champs:
Much of what is deemed optimal for circuit racing and precision is far more influenced by a driver's personal preference and familiarity than actually whether a car is FWD, AWD, RWD, NA or Turbocharged.
Interesting how, for rallying, turbocharging is the induction of choice and RWD is a complete no-no. In this case the driving technique is vastly different and the relationship between throttle, brake and cornering angle-of-attack is, for all intents and purposes, opposite to cornering a fast RWD 130i on a circuit.
Circuit driving is one thing however, but out on public roads I've often seen turbo'd GTIs making mincemeat of cars like WRXs and 130is simply because they're easier to get the most out of quick and early and easier for less experienced drivers to control closer to the limit. That's part of the whole hot hatch attraction. Out on a circuit, approaching 10/10ths FWD cars run out of talent sooner* but on real world roads who dares drive at anything remotely close...?
* (unless you're properly experienced and like a bit of lift-off oversteer and a dab of oppo!
This is true. There is nothing on earth easier to go fast with than a powerful FWD car.
How many times did I see a Renault 5 GT-Turbo, Clio or Megane RS, Peugeot 205 GTI, Golf GTI, 106 Sti running circles around BMWs and Porsches, just because you could litterally throw them into the corner, flatten the throttle early, drive like there's no tomorrow, with way less risks to spin or get off the track than with a powerful RWD car, or even an AWD one.
On the road, it's the same, these cars are fast and safe (active safety only). Very forgiving. It's rallye time... But beware with these too fast, too easy cars, because you tend to be "careless", and when something goes wrong...
Very different experience than an M3.
klier
Premium
Exactly. There's no point. He can drive his Seats if he wants, like anyone will care. They are fairly good car, but should never be mentioned in the same line as BMW, imho
Not to mention the fact that his Seat is modded. If I put a compressor or turbocharger on the E46 M3, the Seat becomes som sort of a joke....
martinbo
Staff member
Poverty's SEAT is not mechanically modified in such a way that it is fundamentally different from its originally engineered state. As is the case with turbocharged cars, a little bit o' power is easier to come by through ECU remapping. If that, somehow, results in detonation and pushing a connie through the block then that's his prerogative.
A forced induction M3 is a significant detraction from its originally intended character and purpose.
All that Poverty is saying is that, for a substantially smaller outlay, his SEAT gives him the thrills that he's after and that it's all a case of horses for courses.
A forced induction M3 is a significant detraction from its originally intended character and purpose.
All that Poverty is saying is that, for a substantially smaller outlay, his SEAT gives him the thrills that he's after and that it's all a case of horses for courses.
Mr Robert
Kraftwagen König
Wait a minute, that is against the rules*! It is only "David" that may be modded, not "Goliath", because if the latter happens, then "David" would be seriously lost and that would not make for a good internet brag, now would it?
*) Internet and Forum act (IaFa), ch. 3 pp. 2, "It is only the underdog that may win. Should the underdog not win, the matter may not be spoken of." IaFa ch. 3 p. 3 "If modifications are allowed in the comparison, these may only be used by the underdog, else, the underdog would be just a dog"
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