Huayra Pagani Huayra Top Gear (Spoiler Alert)

[Mafalda]

reading the official pirelli website, pzero trofero R is street legal but for "allowing moving from one circuit to another", and not good when wet...
the funny think are the "soft" comments.... except Guibo!!!

 

[Guibo]

^I agree..that it might not sell more cars..
But in a way it does.
As it gives more publicity..and it becomes the I WANT THAT car for the normal people.
And believe me some people who have the money to buy these things care how sought after and wanted it is by the general public..
So yeah its publicity..

But the normal people cannot afford this car. By the time they can, something else might very well be faster (especially if allowed to run shaved racing slicks like Pagani). That is the old adage of street racer types who tune their cars to the absolute max: There will always be something faster.
For the people who can afford this car, and are in a realistic position to buy, they will likely not care for such things like lap times. And bad publicity is not necessarily desirable.
Have you heard that Horacio has a problem filling his order books?

reading the official pirelli website, pzero trofero R is street legal but for "allowing moving from one circuit to another", and not good when wet...
the funny think are the "soft" comments.... except Guibo!!!

I don't see what is funny. Those are not the tires that were photographed on the car at the time of the Top Gear lap.

 

[Human]

Sweet, I am the Admirer afterall. Great job Mr. P & AMG

 

[Sunny]

http://jalopnik.com/pagani-admits-they-used-two-sets-of-tires-for-top-gear-450547430

reading the official pirelli website, pzero trofero R is street legal but for "allowing moving from one circuit to another", and not good when wet...
the funny think are the "soft" comments.... except Guibo!!!

That Jalopnik article is a bull shit cop out. They just buy Pagani's lie that the tires are Trofeos and are street legal hook line and sinker when the tires are clearly neither.

Here is my gist of what happened -

Pagani used a Huayra shorn with slick tires from Zonda R with hand cut grooves to set the 1.13.08 Top Gear lap record (as you probably know, TopGear only allows lap times set on street legal tires on the leader board). But Pagani put out a press release that claimed it was set the record using Pirelli Corsas street tires which was clearly a lie. Someone from Teamspeed.com forum caught on to the lie. When confronted with it, Pagani admitted it wasn't Corsas, but modified slicks from Zonda R. Would have finished there, but they went on to also claim the tires were Pirelli Trofeos and that they were street legal tires - both of which are again lies. The tires are clearly not Trofeo tires neither do they seem to be street legal as they don't have any of the markings that street legal tires are mandated to have.

If you want all the groovy details, read this thread - -http://teamspeed.com/forums/supercars/78235-pagani-huayra-top-gear-spoiler-alert-7.html from post #64.

 

[martinbo]

Let me put it to you in my plain English, layman's way of seeing things:

There are no tyres bearing a tread-pattern that remotely resembles that seen on the TopGear Huayra available off-the-shelf as standard fitment items from any of the official tyre suppliers listed by Pagani.

 

[Soup]

So Zonda R tires ? Slicks ?

 

[Sunny]

So Zonda R tires ? Slicks ?

Yes, with some grooves carved on them to make them look like street tires. You can see the exact same tire wear indicator pits used on slicks on the Huyara used to lap the TG track -

Also the tires that were on the Huayra used to do the TG lap were not the sizes that Pagani states Huayra uses (255/35ZR-19 (front) and 335/30zr-20 (rear)), but rather the same exact size as the racing slicks on the Zonda R - 265/645-19 (f) and 325/705-20 (r). Also note Pirelli doesn't use that tire size notation (that specifies the tire diameter instead of the aspect ratio) for any of it's street tires, but uses it for their racing slicks - http://www.pirelli.com/tire/us/en/car/sheet-motorsport/slick.tab?tab=8

Also it doen't have any of the ISO tire codes (which includes the tire speed rating and load index) that street legal tires are mandated to have in most markets including EU/US.

 

[Guibo]

EDIT: Nevermind. Sunny beat me to it.

Trofeo R for reference (never been photographed on the Top Gear car, and note the wear indicator bars, not holes):

Note also Pagani's response in the Jalopnik article:
"1. We used both during the shooting at TopGear Test track. We reported Pirelli Pzero Corsa on our press release because we want, for communication reasons, to push them on the media."

...and not because the Huayra actually used those tires, because that is demonstrably false.

 

[LaArtist]

Let me put it to you in my plain English, layman's way of seeing things:

There are no tyres bearing a tread-pattern that remotely resembles that seen on the TopGear Huayra available off-the-shelf as standard fitment items from any of the official tyre suppliers listed by Pagani.

That is not entierly true.

here are some pirellis with the same thread pattern as the ones used on the Lap..

But still what proves them to NOT be street legal is not the pattern, its more the indicator pits and the size notation.

 

[martinbo]

I say off-the-shelf as standard fitment items on the Huayra that you buy from Pagani. Is this not entirely true?

 

[Mafalda]

EDIT: Nevermind. Sunny beat me to it.

Trofeo R for reference (never been photographed on the Top Gear car, and note the wear indicator bars, not holes):

Note also Pagani's response in the Jalopnik article:
"1. We used both during the shooting at TopGear Test track. We reported Pirelli Pzero Corsa on our press release because we want, for communication reasons, to push them on the media."

...and not because the Huayra actually used those tires, because that is demonstrably false.

may I write "Pagani media manipulation"' ...?
honestly I'm very disappointed: pagany was so honest when they lap the Zonda F CS @ 'Ring... 7'27" , when the same driver, M Basseng, did 7'24"8 with a stock unit (EVO megatest).
it's so simply: was 1'13"8 made using Trofeo R? ok, this laptime is a fake. was on PZero Corsa: Great job, Horatio., end of the story.

 

[LaArtist]

I say off-the-shelf as standard fitment items on the Huayra that you buy from Pagani. Is this not entirely true?

We do not know what they offer off the shelf.

All im saying is that the thread pattern is not the issue here..

Its more the wear pits and the size designation that tells us that they are NOT road legal..

I also thought about the fact that they mimic perfectly the thread of another pirelli tire.
How can they do that if they are Hand cut?.. maybe this is some trick ass tire from Pirelli ( who is a developing partner for Pagani..in order to push the Pzero corsas..)

Or maybe they are in fact hand cut by a master of the trade?

 

[Guibo]

may I write "Pagani media manipulation"' ...?

Isn't that all we have been talking about these past pages? Perhaps they have learned from a not-too-distant neighbor.

it's so simply: was 1'13"8 made using Trofeo R? ok, this laptime is a fake. was on PZero Corsa: Great job, Horatio., end of the story.

Nope. Not end of story. The question has been: Which PZero Corsa? Current Corsa which is EU/DOT-approved (meaning it meets modern standards of roadworthiness, noise legislation and environmental construction consideration) and looks very different? Or a tire that Pagani claims is a P Zero Corsa which is only superficially similar to the apparently discontinued Corsa, but which is in fact a racing tire underneath?
Had they done the run on the Trofeo R, it would have been only a little bit less suspicious; ever seen Huayra on Trofeos before the test, or an announcement of fitment? We can assume that the use of the cut slick suggests two things:
1) Trofeo R is not readily available in Huayra sizes, or
2) Trofeo R would never have reached that lap time even if they had been available

We do not know what they offer off the shelf.
I also thought about the fact that they mimic perfectly the thread of another pirelli tire.
How can they do that if they are Hand cut?.. maybe this is some trick ass tire from Pirelli ( who is a developing partner for Pagani..in order to push the Pzero corsas..)
Or maybe they are in fact hand cut by a master of the trade?

We do know at least some of what they offer off the shelf. The Huayra has been seen with Pirelli PZeros, which we can see mounted and visibly marked here:

The Jalopnik article also links to Autoblog's coverage of the Huayra with the Track Pack. That article identifies the Track Pack-equipped car as having P Zero Corsas:
"The Pirelli P Zero Corsa tires – in the case of the Huayra, 255/35 ZR19 96Y front and 335/30 ZR20 104Y rear – get a hellish workout under any Pagani."

And the tires are also nominally marked "PZero Corsa" on the sidewall:

These are consistent with the tires in Pirelli's media gallery for the PZero Corsa System:

FWIW, that Huayra is the same color and carries the same number plate of the TopGear test car. The Aston One-77's PZero Corsa rear tire size matches the Huayra's, but that car has a more aggressive dry tread pattern than the Corsas above (possibly a proprietary arrangement between Aston Martin and Pirelli in that tire size). Same pattern exists on the F430 Scuderia and as optional fitment to the Aventador and McLaren, I believe. It is nowhere near as aggressive as the Power Lap car's, which uses the old tread pattern.

Here's a video of one way to hand-cut grooves into a slick. It's not that difficult, and there probably are masters at Pirelli who can do this.

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I still do not believe the claim that they would want to "push" the Corsas. The Corsas seen on the Power Lap car do not look anything like the Corsas previously seen on the Huayra. They look like what was once seen on the 360CS (and 996 GT3 RS).

 

[Mafalda]

Isn't that all we have been talking about these past pages? Perhaps they have learned from a not-too-distant neighbor.

Honestly, I cannot find here hundreds of posts, the moralism and the same ferocious comments when we spoke about the "neighbor".... the two magic words "media-manipulation" seem a taboo: after "good form and weather" and "micromanage", will be coined a new, exhilarating justification??
and in other website (ex SC.bet, fastestlap.com) this news simply doesn't exist!!
I'm not surprised

Nope. Not end of story. The question has been: Which PZero Corsa? Current Corsa which is EU/DOT-approved (meaning it meets modern standards of roadworthiness, noise legislation and environmental construction consideration) and looks very different? Or a tire that Pagani claims is a P Zero Corsa which is only superficially similar to the apparently discontinued Corsa, but which is in fact a racing tire underneath?
Had they done the run on the Trofeo R, it would have been only a little bit less suspicious; ever seen Huayra on Trofeos before the test, or an announcement of fitment? We can assume that the use of the cut slick suggests two things:
1) Trofeo R is not readily available in Huayra sizes, or
2) Trofeo R would never have reached that lap time even if they had been available

...if really those tyres were o"nly superficially similar to the apparently discontinued Corsa, but which is in fact a racing tire underneath", it'd really be a fraud
question: what about TopGear? they know it?!?

 

[Guibo]

Honestly, I cannot find here hundreds of posts, the moralism and the same ferocious comments when we spoke about the "neighbor".... the two magic words "media-manipulation" seem a taboo: after "good form and weather" and "micromanage", will be coined a new, exhilarating justification??
and in other website (ex SC.bet, fastestlap.com) this news simply doesn't exist!!
I'm not surprised
...if really those tyres were o"nly superficially similar to the apparently discontinued Corsa, but which is in fact a racing tire underneath", it'd really be a fraud
question: what about TopGear? they know it?!?

Do you want to make it hundreds of posts? Say the word. Everything seems to be laid out pretty clearly, and Pagani have no real defense at this point. Why would we need hundreds of posts? We do not need hundreds of posts, maybe because certain "neighbor" fan types are not so defensive when a non-neighbor is involved.
I do not care for news on those other sites. I do not post there. If you want to moan there, go ahead. Nobody is stopping you. But please stop your petty vindictiveness here in these forums.
Yes, it would be a fraud. It's hard to say who at TopGear knew it. The Stig would be in the best position, much moreso than your average cameraman.

 

[Mafalda]

Do you want to make it hundreds of posts? Say the word. Everything seems to be laid out pretty clearly, and Pagani have no real defense at this point. Why would we need hundreds of posts? We do not need hundreds of posts, maybe because certain "neighbor" fan types are not so defensive when a non-neighbor is involved.
I do not care for news on those other sites. I do not post there. If you want to moan there, go ahead. Nobody is stopping you. But please stop your petty vindictiveness here in these forums.
Yes, it would be a fraud. It's hard to say who at TopGear knew it. The Stig would be in the best position, much moreso than your average cameraman.

no, I don't want to "hundreds of posts," few 'd be enough. but everytime, I have the confirmation of what I wrote two years ago. and remember you've started the controversy about "neighbor"...
I'm not vindictive, but I don't forget: someone had fun to spoke over the pulpit, maybe is not pleasant go down and come back into the fold

 

[Mafalda]

about this test, I've another question to you Guibo... what about Pirelli also?
ok Pagani is a very small mnfr, but Pirelli and BBC are two titans , it's not a good spot

 

[Guibo]

no, I don't want to "hundreds of posts," few 'd be enough. but everytime, I have the confirmation of what I wrote two years ago. and remember you've started the controversy about "neighbor"...
I'm not vindictive, but I don't forget: someone had fun to spoke over the pulpit, maybe is not pleasant go down and come back into the fold

You wrote two years ago that people only look at Ferrari. This thread (among many others) has proven that to be demonstrably false. Actually, you started the controversy by calling out "except Guibo!!" What was that supposed to mean, anyway, if not trying to regurgitate past debates? If you don't forget, that's fine. Keep it to yourself. When you post such things, it marks you out as petty and vindictive. I don't know what "pulpit" you're talking about. Maybe Chris Harris, and how we was forced back into the fold after having been banned from driving the neighbor's cars (precisely the sort of activity he was alluding to)?
As for Pirelli, yes, they deserve blame too.

 

[Mafalda]

truly, when I wrote "exept Guibo", I pointed out only you were the only one here who explicitly condemn Pagani
I repeat, I am not vindictive. simply, you and those like you, you must assume responsibility for what you write: you have done the moralists, then you have contradicted a million times, now pay the consequences
"among many others"? WHEN? WHERE? do you really want to compare the effect of this scandal with "How Ferrari Spin"?
I can only say , after many weeks, in the main forum Italian, nobody knew anything about this!
Ferrari has received thousands of e-mails of protest and criticism, what about Pagani?
not to mention all the times a supercar gets incredible performances (it's a long list) , or is photographed with a team of support near (ex. Aventador and french sport auto), nobody says anything.....
you know very well that I am right, so you're always aggressive, you make me laugh!
Chris Harris? he also wrote "mnfrs optimize? sometimes, but I understand them"... Ferrari manipultates, amnd it's no goood, others "optimize, and it's ok"... but it's non easy to find this article...

 

[Guibo]

truly, when I wrote "exept Guibo", I pointed out only you were the only one here who explicitly condemn Pagani
I repeat, I am not vindictive. simply, you and those like you, you must assume responsibility for what you write: you have done the moralists, then you have contradicted a million times, now pay the consequences
"among many others"? WHEN? WHERE? do you really want to compare the effect of this scandal with "How Ferrari Spin"?
I can only say , after many weeks, in the main forum Italian, nobody knew anything about this!
Ferrari has received thousands of e-mails of protest and criticism, what about Pagani?
not to mention all the times a supercar gets incredible performances (it's a long list) , or is photographed with a team of support near (ex. Aventador and french sport auto), nobody says anything.....
you know very well that I am right, so you're always aggressive, you make me laugh!
Chris Harris? he also wrote "mnfrs optimize? sometimes, but I understand them"... Ferrari manipultates, amnd it's no goood, others "optimize, and it's ok"... but it's non easy to find this article...

And should I not have condemned Pagani? I don't see Sunny being uncondemning of Pagani.
"Many others"...see the threads about Porsche GB using a Euro-spec Cayman R, Panamera "dyno mode", "SL55" AMG way too fast at Nardo, McLaren tweaking the like Ferrari, etc. They are there. You just choose not to see.
And why would not there be a big scandal around Ferrari? Tell me, mafalda, who:
1) has changed tires between wet and dry portions of ECOTY when all others remained on as-delivered tires?
2) punished Chris Harris (and others) who spoke badly of them?
3) and sent two cars to testing to C&D, one of which was for photos which they were explicitly told not to measure, one of which was a Euro-spec car?
Other manufacturers optimize, that has not been the question. What is the question is: Is the playing field truly level, and hasn't one manufacturer done more than most to tilt the playing field in their favor, even away from the playing field itself? It is not about who has done this, or this, or that. It's about who has done this and this and that.