2 Series [Official] The New BMW 2 Series Gran Tourer (F45)

[SCOTT27]

I drove one of these for about 20 hours last week. I've got nothing more to say than that.

I would rather listen to the over 170,000 customers who have actually bought one.

 

[Munzmjs]

I would rather listen to the over 170,000 customers who have actually bought one.

Thats the problem with BMW these days. Too busy pumping out a plethora of vehicles that no one really wants trying to capture every possible market instead of focusing on creating great driver's cars with beautiful designs.

Look at the i3...another perfect example of garbage that BMW personnel like you will surely defend tooth and nail. As a long time BMW fan and owner of previous models...the new cars surely dont excite many of us like cars of old. Something has gone horribly wrong when Mercedes products excite me more than bimmers.

Sad times for BMW...good times for other automakers.

 

[domleo999]

I think if the hood didn't have a FWD Transverse slope, and had a straighter angle seen in the transverse X1 It would look a lot better.

 

[Monster]

I would rather listen to the over 170,000 customers who have actually bought one.

They wish they didn't have a large family.

 

[SCOTT27]

Thats the problem with BMW these days. Too busy pumping out a plethora of vehicles that no one really wants trying to capture every possible market instead of focusing on creating great driver's cars with beautiful designs.

Look at the i3...another perfect example of garbage that BMW personnel like you will surely defend tooth and nail. As a long time BMW fan and owner of previous models...the new cars surely dont excite many of us like cars of old. Something has gone horribly wrong when Mercedes products excite me more than bimmers.

Sad times for BMW...good times for other automakers.

But they do want that is why we sell so many and why globally its the best selling 2er and also why there are increases on this concept month after month.
Customers move on and their attitude changes as an example technology figures into the equation of buying a new vehicle.
It did not figure in the old days.
Interesting about Mercedes because their expansion what with GLE and GLC is exactly what we done with X6 and X4 again huge sellers in larger specific markets not North America as intended.
The i3 is brilliant for what it is. Singular,individual and unconventional and revolutionary.
The upgraded models are even better than before hence why sales are now up.

 

[Monster]

But they do want that is why we sell so many and why globally its the best selling 2er and also why there are increases on this concept month after month.

The best selling 2er? Of course Scott..only BMW groups a VAN along with RWD sports coupes and convertible under the same series.

It did not figure in the old days.

In the old days, people value substance and dignity. They weren't easily swayed by marketing bs.

Interesting about Mercedes because their expansion what with GLE and GLC is exactly what we done with X6 and X4 again huge sellers in larger specific markets not North America as intended..

Mercedes is just as guilty

The i3 is brilliant for what it is. Singular,individual and unconventional and revolutionary.
The upgraded models are even better than before hence why sales are now up.

Too bad nobody is buying it. I have seen about 4 in Sydney over the years.

 

[Munzmjs]

But they do want that is why we sell so many and why globally its the best selling 2er and also why there are increases on this concept month after month.
Customers move on and their attitude changes as an example technology figures into the equation of buying a new vehicle.
It did not figure in the old days.
Interesting about Mercedes because their expansion what with GLE and GLC is exactly what we done with X6 and X4 again huge sellers in larger specific markets not North America as intended.
The i3 is brilliant for what it is. Singular,individual and unconventional and revolutionary.
The upgraded models are even better than before hence why sales are now up.

People want pickup/utility trucks/VANS...so basically will BMW also be making them as well? Come on now, there is always a demand for something, but that doesn't mean that every manufacturer should go and squabble for every niche now. I can understand the philosophy of pushing for greater market share, but your products should be positioned with a philosophy that is true the Brand's identity as well. Unfortunately, BMW seems to be creating a whole lot of identities lately that has become rather confusing...unless BMW wants to become the German Toyota.

In that regard, how about the halo sports car that BMW fans have been crying about for years... Clearly there is demand for that, but BMW couldn't care less about developing one it seems. Please dont use the Hybrid i8, as an answer cause while it may be a good car, it is also somewhat polarizing in certain aspects and cant really compete performance wise.

The difference between Mercedes and BMW is that Mercedes is pushing towards catering for purists as well. While they may make crappy mommy vans here and there, they have also been make some really good and exciting sporty vehicles lately. Mercedes also knows what they are loved for (sound and monster torque), but have also started upping the ante in handling and design as well.

BMWs where loved for the way they drove and looked, but as I look at a lot of the current models...that seems to be a fading characteristic. The new 7er has been getting mixed reviews...its more of a gadget/toy more than anything else, current 5er's handling is disappointing, the 3 series is not as good as it should be... If Jaguar can make better handling cars than BMW in a segment that BMW has always dominated (3er vs XE), then that should have you guys at HQ rethinking your priorities.

The x6 is fine by me...infact I liked the first gen a lot...as for the X4! Eh, nothanksjeff... no matter how nice it may be to drive, it looks terrible IMO. The proportions are off, and the lines look very japanese...not something I would want from a premium german brand.

/Rant!

 

[Centurion]

It's not really made for you is it, single men without families don't need mummy wagons that can move multiple kids.

Exactly. Spend a weekend with a family of four and you'll understand why this car exist.

I agree that it's the least aspirational car in BMW's line-up and is the anti-Christ of the brand. However those with badge snobbery who can't afford the only other BMW 7-seater, the X5 which is almost three times as expensive, finds the 2-series Grand Tourer and attractive proposition.

For BMW it's a car that scoop money from mum's who would otherwise have bought a Honda Odyssey or a 7 seater Japanese/Korean SUV. Personally I don't know how successful BMW will be as many woman value driving an SUV over an MPV.

 

[SCOTT27]

The 3er excels in its competency. Its abilities to multi-task and be everything. That is why it sells in both private and business sectors its a multi-tool. It does everything effortless but has many roles even from the base 318i the best seller 320d up to the all new 340i its abilities are simply astounding and far from which new competitors can barely reach.
It is no longer about the most amazing drive its a mixture of everything that declares the car as an example of competency.
Its the same for the VW Golf. Sure there are more exciting competitors out there certainly some that shout about their dynamics but why does the Golf outsell them? Competency.

The BMW i8 is again like the i3 a pinnacle of innovation. Its a what if scenario realised. If the sports car was obsolete tomorrow how would it survive? Sure the Hyper cars have already illustrated this but the genius of the i8 is that it can be attained as an affordable reality. The i8 has super or hyper car construction techniques for a fraction of the price, similar technology although the i8 is an exercise on using less to achieve more.
The next phase of i8 is imminent and will not just include the Spyder but an increase in power again using the less is more philosophy. And its possible we will let the media sample our full electric i8 in order to showcase our developing and exciting future. We also have a further model using Power eDrive which will also be sampled. This time its a four cylinder.

 

[Matski]

I think if the hood didn't have a FWD Transverse slope, and had a straighter angle seen in the transverse X1 It would look a lot better.

Cars in this segment are all about the best use of space, and unfortunately this kind of design is an off-shoot of that. I think what makes it worse is how low and squashed the nose is. Personally I don't mind the shape of the AT or the GT, but the styling of it's "face" I think is what really lets it down.

Thats the problem with BMW these days. Too busy pumping out a plethora of vehicles that no one really wants trying to capture every possible market instead of focusing on creating great driver's cars with beautiful designs.

"No one really wants"? I think I need to break out my graph again...

Lots of people want them, you might not.

pushing for greater market share, but your products should be positioned with a philosophy that is true the Brand's identity as well

You can't increase market share if you are failing to offer the same volume sellers that your competitors do, unfortunately for BMW that means making cars that are not sports saloons - it means making "four door coupes", it means making compact FWD saloons, it means making compact MPV's, and for Mercedes for instance it has meant making 2 different mid-size "Sports Activity Coupes".

Too bad nobody is buying it. I have seen about 4 in Sydney over the years.

Firstly, Nobody? The sales figures are out there, and they are not zero. And, secondly, they are a much better gauge for how many people have bought one than sightings by one person in one market that doesn't appear to have incentives for electric vehicles, cheap petrol, and potentially much longer range journeys. It wouldn't surprise me if they weren't popular in Australia, but people need to remember it's the global market that justifies development.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

So @Enl disagreed with my post, so either @Betty Swollocks didn't survive, or he is disappointed that Betty did survive.

Technically, it would be that he disagrees that YOU are glad I survived. So if he was trying to insult me, he's failed.

It's not really made for you is it, single men without families don't need mummy wagons that can move multiple kids.

I would rather listen to the over 170,000 customers who have actually bought one.

As it happens, I wasn't actually trying to be critical when I said I had "nothing more to say" about the Gran Tourer. It was just such an unremarkable car to drive. It doesn't stick in my mind in any way, and the only thing I can remember about it is that it was quite difficult to park. I'm apathetic. It's the equivalent of white goods. I imagine the people choosing to buy this car think about it in the same way people think about buying a washing machine.

But they do want that is why we sell so many and why globally its the best selling 2er and also why there are increases on this concept month after month.

I know there is a certain degree of animosity between us Scott, but try and look beyond that for a moment. The impression I get from some of your posts is that you're not really a car fan in the same way the majority of people on here are. I'm not trying to insult you. That's just the impression I get sometimes. Some of your posts seem to utterly miss the point of what it means to be a (hate the term) "petrolhead". You defend the 2er Gran Tourer by mentioning how many units it's sold. So what? Is that an indication of how good a car is? Do you honestly think it's sold so many because people think it's a good car, or because they HAVE to have a 7-seater and it's got a BMW badge on the front?

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Sure the Hyper cars have already illustrated this but the genius of the i8 is that it can be attained as an affordable reality.

I don't think you could describe one of the most expensive BMWs one can buy as "affordable reality".

Oh, you mean it's affordable compared to the trio of the recent hypercars (LaFer, P1, 918)? Sure, the i8 is much cheaper, but it's nowhere near those cars either. Not in terms of performance, rarity, desirability. Just because it uses CFRP construction techniques and is a hybrid, it doesn't make it comparable by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[SCOTT27]

I don't think you could describe one of the most expensive BMWs one can buy as "affordable reality".

Oh, you mean it's affordable compared to the trio of the recent hypercars (LaFer, P1, 918)? Sure, the i8 is much cheaper, but it's nowhere near those cars either. Not in terms of performance, rarity, desirability. Just because it uses CFRP construction techniques and is a hybrid, it doesn't make it comparable by any stretch of the imagination.

Of course not they are equal. But if you examine in how they use their technology and construction to advantage they are similar. But here The i8 is the quintessential bargain.
I would say i8 is equally desirable you can still turn heads when you drive by in one.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Of course not they are equal. But if you examine in how they use their technology and construction to advantage they are similar.

They also have some massive differences too! The LaFerrari uses a V12 NA engine, where as the i8 uses a three-cylinder turbo engine. Performance wise they are worlds apart. The i8 is not even the fastest car BMW do. The LaFer, 918, and P1 use hybrid technology to boost performance. The i8 uses hybrid technology to replace part of the power plant with a greener alternative. You could take the engine and batteries out of the i8 and replace it with the S55 engine from the M3, and it would go quicker! 362hp versus 450hp.

Could you honestly see Ferrari putting the V8 from the California into the LaFerrari? So I don't see how they're using the technology in the same way, other than that they're both CFRP and they have batteries.

I would say i8 is equally desirable you can still turn heads when you drive by in one.

The sheer act of turning heads does not mean it's "equally desirable". Lots of cars turn heads. My R8 turns heads, but it doesn't mean it has the same level of desirability as a Ferrari F12 or Lamborghini Aventador, and the i8 is not as equally desirable as LaFerrari etc.

 

[Munzmjs]

....

First and foremost...dont take figures of speech n their most literal terms, but look at the sales performance of particular vehicles in their respective segments compared to the rest of the market's offerings. I am not bashing BMW in totality to say that nobody wants a BMW, but to rather say that cars like the i3 and active tourer are a waste of R&D resources that should rather be refocused on what the auto car maker is good at, and what consumers want. Marketing 101 dictates identifying the customer's needs first... BMW instead produces products based on what they perceive to be the consumer's wants and needs and expect it to fly off the shelves, then get a shocker whenc ertain vehicles gather dust on dealer lots.

Secondly, pertaining to market share increase, I am not condemning the expansion of products/product lines as that is critical for survival and market success, but rather saying that the products should align with the brand's philosophy....unless you want BMW to become a generic auto manufacturer like how some brand-houses make generic products of everything from sugar to detergents. This may be good for over the counter consumer products but may kill the brand perception/panache of a prestigious brand such as BMW in the long run.

Thirdly, your graph takes into account the total sales including BMW fleet sales and other spin-offs for the Chinese market etc of all of BMW's offerings in totality. Lets us be realistic here, the 3 series is probably the bread and butter of BMW, followed by the 5 and X vehicles accordingly. Please for the sake of transparency or relevance in the debate, post a graph that shows the sales of cars like the 2 series and post equivalent competitor performance graphs for vehicles aimed directly against cars like the active tourer.

I can assure you that other automakers will post similar graphs also showing hikes in sales since the 1900s to now. Audi for one are claiming to be leading in vehicle sales in the U.S. apparently...just some food for thought!

 

[Monster]

Marketing 101 dictates identifying the customer's needs first...

Customers need that BMW badge. Ok this might be too cynical...but I think this applies for the van.

 

[Matski]

First and foremost...dont take figures of speech in their most literal terms

I appreciate I am somewhat of a pedant sometimes, but I think it matters... and if people fail to challenge such statements it becomes a lazy way of pretending something you think, is a fact. Don't mean to get at you for it, it's just a pet peeve.

...but look at the sales performance of particular vehicles in their respective segments compared to the rest of the market's offerings. I am not bashing BMW in totality to say that nobody wants a BMW, but to rather say that cars like the i3 and active tourer are a waste of R&D resources that should rather be refocused on what the auto car maker is good at, and what consumers want.

You can't level poor sales at the 2AT/GT as a reason to claim it's a waste of R & D resources. It's selling well and is probably a net contributor to the R & D budget thanks to it's broadly un-specific underpinnings.

The i3 is a much more complex case. The R & D isn't wasted unless they fail to further implement this knowledge in future cars. By the sounds of it, BMW is back-tracking on the idea of Born Electric, and are going to just start electrifying existing platforms. I don't think this counts against the i3 as product, but it is a valid criticism of management. I'm sure if they made the i3 look a little sexier, many people wouldn't resent it as much as they do.

Marketing 101 dictates identifying the customer's needs first... BMW instead produces products based on what they perceive to be the consumer's wants and needs and expect it to fly off the shelves, then get a shocker whenc ertain vehicles gather dust on dealer lots.

Well, I never paid much attention to my marketing classes, but I do know that in any relevant quality management system product design and development very much require establishing the customers needs, as well as monitoring customer feedback on a number of levels. I have no reason not to believe this is what BMW do. I'm not sure if this is any more or less valid than you acting as though you know what the internals workings of BMW's product development teams are.

Secondly, pertaining to market share increase, I am not condemning the expansion of products/product lines as that is critical for survival and market success, but rather saying that the products should align with the brand's philosophy....unless you want BMW to become a generic auto manufacturer like how some brand-houses make generic products of everything from sugar to detergents.

Out of curiosity, what brand philosophy are you subscribing to here - is it even a philosophy - or is it just a mental picture of the things you like about BMW? I'll fully agree that whatever BMW makes should be a good product, or an excellent product, in some cases the best product - but some people need to realise that getting hung up on old dogmas does not make for a good, or an excellent product, and only in rare cases would it make it the best.

This may be good for over the counter consumer products but may kill the brand perception/panache of a prestigious brand such as BMW in the long run.

They will introduce GKL segment products and it will be fine, just as it has been for Mercedes.

Please for the sake of transparency or relevance in the debate, post a graph that shows the sales of cars like the 2 series and post equivalent competitor performance graphs for vehicles aimed directly against cars like the active tourer.

Reading BMW group reports is my interest, if you want to see comparative graphs, you can get some data from left-lane.com but I'm not going to do all the work for you I know the 2 series AT is selling in similar numbers to the already established Mercedes B-Class, for me that is all the justification the model needs, but I doubt for you there is any justification.

 

[domleo999]

I've just realised, it doesn't even have a hoffmeister kink.

the only thing BMW about the car is the kidney grill !

 

[Matski]

I've just realised, it doesn't even have a hoffmeister kink.

the only thing BMW about the car is the kidney grill !

To be fair, lack of traditional hoffmeister kink is nothing new...

(The 700 didn't even have kidneys, yet was a hugely important car for BMW!)

I don't think it's much worse on the GT than the several X Models.

 

[binmil]

I actually own one of this car. I have compared other similar MPVs. but BMW 2GT is superior on many levels including price. Here in Europe bigger is not better. 'There are other bigger mpvs/suvs for the same price' is not valid in this case. with MPVs it is handy to have few more options like sunroof, leather seat (easy to clean with kids). park assistant and few more. If you add all this extra to cars like zafira you will end up with the same price as BMW. In the case of Touran it gets even more expensive. Believe me, I did my calculation - highend Touran is more expensive. BMW is expensive at lower end, and it is not as handy as Touran. but I think the style and interior quality of BMW will compensate the handy-ness of Touran.