E-Class (W212/C207/A207) [Official] Mercedes-Benz E-Class (W212) Facelift

[LaArtist]

not strictly true. BMW joint ventures with SGL for its CFRP, but of course SGL is effectively controlled by BMW heiress Susanne Klatten, of the Quandt family.

Also, although Mercedes has strong links to Tesla for its electric powertrains, and has a minority shareholding, it still pursues its own way in batteries and motors, as shown just this week with its acquring of 100% ownership of Li-Tec.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...ut-partner-evonik-in-li-tec-battery-unit.html

@Sunny you got schooled!

PS
Anyway that was not the point, many manufacturers go outside for several things..
But what is the meaning of boasting about it, when its just a matter of ordering a gearbox?.
Hell at least Mercedes in the case with Bosch laid down some research and money together to come up with certain technology's and components..
But to place a simple order at ZF and then act like your dad made the gearbox with your bare hands.. Puhleaze i say to @mini_cooper4 and the likes of him.

And then there is still the PDK lol!

 

[W201]

@Sunny you got schooled!


And then there is still the PDK lol!

Which is also made by ZF.

 

[LaArtist]

^yes i know this.. but with the PDK porsche did what Mercedes does with bosch, they went in with research and development, thus being the only customer to that ZF transmission called the 7DT ( PDK). They also went to ZF to make a gearbox from scratch to fit the porsche profile, very different from the 8 speed! Hence the superiority of the PDK


The 8 speed auto from ZF is called 8HP, and is used by more or less everyone that is someone for eg:
Audi,Bentley,BMW,Chrysler,Jeep,Lancia,Land Rover,Maserati, RR, VW..

 

[klier]

BMW has it's own unique software for what it is worth ^
Right now imo, the best combo of gearbox, software and engine comes from BMW. Maybe the MB 9 speed changes that, but they will need the engines to back it up, and the 4 cylinders at least aren't cutting it really..

Who makes the M DCT?

 

[LaArtist]

^ that is a must for it to be optimized with the engines of all different models and brands it serves

Getrag makes the DCT

 

[klier]

Getrag makes the DCT

And what is the general consensus versus the ZF one used in Porsches and Benzes?
From my understanding on par? I never read about any negatives about M DCT?

Got any shifting times perhaps

The 8 speed auto from ZF is called 8HP, and is used by more or less everyone that is someone for eg:
Audi,Bentley,BMW,Chrysler,Jeep,Lancia,Land Rover,Maserati, RR, VW..

They rule the world!! It's a @&€¥ing monopoly!

 

[LaArtist]

^the ZF automatic is not a dual clutch transmission my friend..

Hence M going to Getrag to get a DCT..

Also the 7G tronic is an automatic, so in the case of the SLS Mercedes went outside for the AMG speedshift to Getrag aswell.

As does Ferrari for the cali and the italia.. Getrag DCT..

The only Dual clutch from ZF is the PDK, and that's porsche Exclusive.

PS
M-DCT has a shift time of 80ms (old M3).

PPS
Mercedes only used ZF's once, they did in the 60s with the a 5speed manual for the S and SL of that time.

 

[LaArtist]

They rule the world!! It's a @&€¥ing monopoly!

Well they deserve it, it is an amazing gearbox to say the least..

Here is some fun reading:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/car...ountless-cars-the-zf-8hp-eight-speed-15855273

 

[klier]

^the ZF automatic is not a dual clutch transmission my friend..

I am obviously aware of that, but I somehow thought you said both MB and Porsche use the 'PDK'

Still informatve stuff.

 

[LaArtist]

^nope only Porsche.

MB to my knowledge makes everything in house, besides the DCT in the SLS AMG, which comes from GETRAG

 

[Amat46]

When Merc introduced 7 speed rest of the industry was using 6 speed and it was the indeed best tranny for a period of time until ZF introduced the 8 speed. Hope Merc can replicate the same success with the 9 speed. The new 9 speed along with new breed of I4's and I6's are the next big things from Mercedes.

 

[mini_cooper4]

^BMW? its a ZF.. half the fuggin car industry has it..

what's the big deal in placing an order?

And btw ever heard of PDK?

It's BMW and ZF actually. All the rest using the 8-speed are lacking compared to BMW.
ZF + BMW is the best combo currently and it's a well known fact.
OK, I should have said best single clutch transmission. We should also keep in mind that the PDK has its own flaws.
The PDK in the GT3 is perfected but that's not what all Porsche cars are using.

 

[LaArtist]

^wait what? it is a ZF TRANSMISSION.. BMW has nothing to do with it other than ordering it.. understand this please.
Now i can give them credit of being masters of setting up drive trains, i don't take that away from them.
So once again any merit of the ZF transmission has nothing to do with BMW..

Btw the rest of the companies using that same transmission are no where near BMW in the philosophy for their cars:
1st group AWD/FWD cars: VW,Audi
2nd group luxury: Bentley and RR
3rd suv group: JEEP,Landrover etc
4th American cars: No comment
5th group: BMW, Maserati and Jaguar.. now Maserati are not really BMW material, nor is Jaguar..

So when you say that it is the best combo, well Maserati and Jaguar does not have the cash or know how to match BMWs drive trains.

And the rest who might have the financial muscles has a different philosophy with their cars.

So just stop with this BMW has the best transmission talk, it is a bought ZF transmission.. coupled masterly to wonderful engines.
Nothing more nothing less..

 

[mini_cooper4]

^wait what? it is a ZF TRANSMISSION.. BMW has nothing to do with it other than ordering it.. understand this please.
Now i can give them credit of being masters of setting up drive trains, i don't take that away from them.
So once again any merit of the ZF transmission has nothing to do with BMW..

Btw the rest of the companies using that same transmission are no where near BMW in the philosophy for their cars:
1st group AWD/FWD cars: VW,Audi
2nd group luxury: Bentley and RR
3rd suv group: JEEP,Landrover etc
4th American cars: No comment
5th group: BMW, Maserati and Jaguar.. now Maserati are not really BMW material, nor is Jaguar..

So when you say that it is the best combo, well Maserati and Jaguar does not have the cash or know how to match BMWs drive trains.

And the rest who might have the financial muscles has a different philosophy with their cars.

So just stop with this BMW has the best transmission talk, it is a bought ZF transmission.. coupled masterly to wonderful engines.
Nothing more nothing less..

So it has the best drivetrain which does indeed include the transmission. It doesn't matter who does the tranny and trust me I know how involved BMW was during any stage of the 8HP's development.
My family is involved with ZF for quarter a century already

 

[LaArtist]

^ educated us then.. is it so that BMW was included in the 8 speed ZF development program.. more so than any of the other brands that use it?

If so do they get any discounts for doing the work.. and how do they feel about doing all the work, and the competition just using their hard labour without any efforts.?

Cause they sure as hell do not have the exclusivity deal that Porsche managed to score.

Ask your fam

 

[mini_cooper4]

^ educated us then.. is it so that BMW was included in the 8 speed ZF development program.. more so than any of the other brands that use it?

If so do they get any discounts for doing the work.. and how do they feel about doing all the work, and the competition just using their hard labour without any efforts.?

Cause they sure as hell do not have the exclusivity deal that Porsche managed to score.

Ask your fam

BMW wasn't the only brand involved and that's not what my post states.
Yes, Porsche managed to score a deal but no one is talking about exclusivity here.
8HP works perfect with BMW and that's my point. The end result is indeed better than what their direct competitors(8HP users included) have on offer.

 

[LaArtist]

^how is it better than say an Audi..or maserati..

Please explain.

 

[mini_cooper4]

^how is it better than say an Audi..or maserati..

Please explain.

It's way better "synchronized" in the case of the BMW. Both smoother and faster reacting.
Any other questions?

 

[Sunny]

not strictly true. BMW joint ventures with SGL for its CFRP, but of course SGL is effectively controlled by BMW heiress Susanne Klatten, of the Quandt family.

Also, although Mercedes has strong links to Tesla for its electric powertrains, and has a minority shareholding, it still pursues its own way in batteries and motors, as shown just this week with its acquring of 100% ownership of Li-Tec.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...ut-partner-evonik-in-li-tec-battery-unit.html

Yes I know CF is being build by a joint venture with SGL. Mercedes involvement with Tesla is purely an investment, believe <5%. AFAIK they are not co-developing anything with Tesla, besides Tesla supplying drivelines for electric B. Didn't know about Li-Tec, so thanks for sharing that.

@Sunny you got schooled!

How old are you? 6? My point was everyone decides what to invest in vs outsource. To anyone, it is obvious BMW chose to invest heavily in electric drivetrains and CF with the 'i' program. Will it pay off? May be, maybe not. Just cause you lack the mental capacity to grapple something that simple or cause you are petty enough personalize anything involving BMW, you respond with some silly juvenile comment.

And then there is still the PDK lol!

Yea, what about PDK? It is a performance oriented transmission. Just like M-DCT or other dual clutch transmissions. While ZF automatic is more luxury oriented. Even Porsche realizes this and chose to use the ZF eight speed instead of the PDK in Cayenne and some versions of Panamera. Again, stop personalizing everything and you might actually utter something more intelligent than "PDK lol" (which BTW makes for awesome vanity for an old school Porsche!)

 

[Wolfgang]

AFAIK they are not co-developing anything with Tesla, besides Tesla supplying drivelines for electric B. Didn't know about Li-Tec, so thanks for sharing that.

Goes much further back and according to Elon Musk started in late 2007. Remember Daimler introduced the smart electric drive in February 2006 in Geneva. That was the first generation, using Zytek technology, now a division of Continental,
and the Zebra battery, originally developed by Daimler but sold off. About 100 units were trialed in London. Tesla got involved with generation 2 of the smart electric drive, and since they pleased Daimler, the initial order was raised from 1000 units several times to around 2100. The third generation of the smart fortwo electric drive, however, instead uses the large format lithium ion cells, about 100 each, developed and produced in Daimler subsidiary Li-Tec, assembled into batteries at Deutsche ACCUmotive, and mated to an electric motor developed by the Bosch Daimler joint venture in Hildesheim. According to the latest rumors, Tesla may come into the picture again for the fourth generation, expected around 2016, and perhaps also some mass produced modules shared with smart partner Renault Nissan to reduce manufacturing cost and ensure mass production quality and refinement.

Tesla also produced the drivetrain for about 500 A-Class electric vehicles, as a precursor to the B-Class electric vehicle you mentioned.

These GCF threads may offer more insights:

http://www.germancarforum.com/community/threads/smart-fortwo-electric-drive-enters-production.30458/
http://www.germancarforum.com/community/threads/daimler-board-member-“electric-mercedes-a-and-b-class-coming-in-2010″.25151/
http://www.germancarforum.com/community/threads/concept-b-class-electric-drive.46812/