M3/M4 [Official] 2021 BMW M3 and M4 [G80 & G82]

[Matski]

Out of interest too, so you really can't think of any ways how an engine specifically engineered for a 1700kg sports car could be different from one meant for a 2000+ kg SUV that can also tow a further 2000 +kg? It is sort of sad when one's fanboyism makes one feign ignorance.

I've got lots of ideas how the engine could be different, what I'm less sure on is why it would be different. But, I take from your snark-laden deflection that towing capacity is your best technical justification?

 

[CrunchSlaughtered]

Not necessarily. A bigger displacement doesn't automatically translate to bigger engine - example - S62 being a V8 was more compact than the I6 S54 and was only marginally heavier - 158kg vs 150kg. BMW could have easily used the S62 in the E46 M3 if it wanted to (and have been done aftermarket). But of course, the car's characteristics would have been completely different and IMO not as special as what E46 M3 turned out to be.

But I agree with your larger point about turbo engines being more flexible and more usable across different models. But at the same time, you can see some of the compromises in S58 too if you compare the torque curve to S55*. The engine response seems slower, I am guessing, cause it probably has a bigger turbos? It also revs less than S55, by just 100rpm, so not end of the world.

Obvious speculation on my part - but I think, if the BMW of the early 2000s were making this car, they would have probably gone the extra mile to engineer a truly special bespoke engine vs just use a good engine. Would it have been financially the most prudent thing to do? probably not.

*

Quite a different torque curve (although it is not exactly a curve anymore). It is interesting to see also how the Competition (450 ps) and the CS versions (462 ps) of the S55 compare.

 

[manuelf]

Not necessarily. A bigger displacement doesn't automatically translate to bigger engine - example - S62 being a V8 was more compact than the I6 S54 and was only marginally heavier - 158kg vs 150kg. BMW could have easily used the S62 in the E46 M3 if it wanted to (and have been done aftermarket). But of course, the car's characteristics would have been completely different and IMO not as special as what E46 M3 turned out to be.

Hm. Be careful. Engine weight is almost as complex/lengthy discussed as vehicle weight. Depends on what you count in! Just the pure engine block or also the entire peripherals.
If you take everything into account, then you have a bigger delta than only maybe the 8kg delta of block weights! The V8 is wider, has more complex manifold layout/packaging, has two valve-trains/camshafts, needs reinforced transmission compared to S54, has beefier coolers, and ... and ... and. So final real car-weight delta might have been much larger!
So I think the whole package of E46 M3 with S54 was much more harmonic.

But I agree with your larger point about turbo engines being more flexible and more usable across different models. But at the same time, you can see some of the compromises in S58 too if you compare the torque curve to S55*. The engine response seems slower, I am guessing, cause it probably has a bigger turbos? It also revs less than S55, by just 100rpm, so not end of the world.

Yep. S58 seems to suffer a bit from its bigger turbos. What is weird with your diagram: The S58 has more low-end HP up to 1500 rpm but lower torque than the S55 in this rpm range. Makes no sense.

Obvious speculation on my part - but I think, if the BMW of the early 2000s were making this car, they would have probably gone the extra mile to engineer a truly special bespoke engine vs just use a good engine.

Are you just talking about G8x here? So you say: S58 is just good enough for G8x? Or (since you say early 2000s) do you think this also holds true for the S55? It also was just good enough for the F8x? Or are you referring to S58 and X3M/X4M?

 

[dalab]

Yeah, can everybody PLEASE stop criticising the new M3 and M4, because dalab has had enough of it!

Seriously dalab, there are people are bringing up valid points who've owned many, many M products over the last 25 years, myself and Sunny included. They're invested in M more than most. I think they've got a right to comment without you acting like your feelings have been hurt. What do you want people to say? They're perfect? What is the point if people only say positive things? It's anodyne and makes the comments meaningless. Why would you even care anyway? As long as YOU like them then who cares what other people think?

As long as the comments are balanced and with a valid reasoning, then it's perfectly fine to post negative as well as positive comments. As tired as you are reading them, people are also tired of having to read YOU whinging all the time. If you can't cope with people bringing up valid negative points then stay away from the thread. Simple! Or, do what @Matski does. Disagree but engage in an actual discussion.

I love BMW M. I have done since I was a teenager when I first saw an E36 M3 Coupe in my local dealership. I've owned an E46 M3 Coupe, Z4 M Coupe, E92 M3 Coupe and an F82 M4, all from new. I can tell you now, I don't miss the M4 one bit. The first three? Deeply. There's a reason for that.

There's no event I look forward to more than the launch of a new M3. Period. But that doesn't mean the car is impervious to ANY criticism whatsoever!

As for the new M3/M4, I have every intention of getting the Touring when it's launched in a couple of years (subject to family situation). I've already specced up the G80 three times. I think it's bold and has really shaken up the segment. I think the grill looks fine, and the choice of colours is the best on any M3 yet. So don't for one second think just because I don't think it's perfect that I'm in any way a "hater". It's just that it's not as special as it once was, but that's life.

As always, you seek to discredit, I have every right to express that the issue of the engine is not a problem, I consider that it is a new engine for this line of new models, and I consider very little important the fact that it is shared, as it was also done with the M5 / Z8, of course the E46 is wonderful, although it was later used in the Z4M, and?

You have not said anything positive about the car, it is the first time I see that you at least like the colors, great!
Let's clarify something, please don't tell me what I can say here or not, I'm not complaining about anything, those who complain are you, that the engine this and that, we live at a time when costs are pressing, therefore there is much discussion about a situation that today is unmanageable, there are other brands (premium), that do not change the engines for generations, so your point of attack and criticism, for me is a point to highlight in the M3, M4, it seems absurd that it is pretend that there is an engine for each car today, there must be 15 M currently and you keep talking about past decades when there were 3 or 4 M's and brands could afford to do whatever they wanted.
If you owned one or 43 M cars, it's just a personal experience

 

[Sunny]

what I'm less sure on is why it would be different

Why? To make it better. Or do you think the current engine is perfect and can't be improved?

Hm. Be careful. Engine weight is almost as complex/lengthy discussed as vehicle weight. Depends on what you count in! Just the pure engine block or also the entire peripherals.
If you take everything into account, then you have a bigger delta than only maybe the 8kg delta of block weights! The V8 is wider, has more complex manifold layout/packaging, has two valve-trains/camshafts, needs reinforced transmission compared to S54, has beefier coolers, and ... and ... and. So final real car-weight delta might have been much larger!
So I think the whole package of E46 M3 with S54 was much more harmonic.

Yes, agree, engine weights are complex, but given both are BMW engines and from BMW training manuals, I am guessing the weights I mentioned are measured consistently.
As for transmission, both cars use the same transmission - Getrag 420G, so that is a non-issue.

Yep. S58 seems to suffer a bit from its bigger turbos. What is weird with your diagram: The S58 has more low-end HP up to 1500 rpm but lower torque than the S55 in this rpm range. Makes no sense.

Just to be clarify, that is not my diagram, it is from BMW training manual for technicians for S58 - https://www.bimmerpost.com/goodiesforyou/docs/ST1926-S58-Engine.pdf

Are you just talking about G8x here? So you say: S58 is just good enough for G8x? Or (since you say early 2000s) do you think this also holds true for the S55? It also was just good enough for the F8x? Or are you referring to S58 and X3M/X4M?

Yes. and Yes (from what I know of it so far). Can of worms, I don't want to get into (but yes, I don't think S55 belongs to pantheon of great M engines that preceded it). X3M/4M - don't care.

So I think the whole package of E46 M3 with S54 was much more harmonic.

Yes, indeed. And that is the crux of the point I am making - BMW could have easily used the engine from the E39 M5 in E46 M3 and it would have been still a great car. But they didn't and this is despite E39 M5 and E46 M3 being much closer in application and character than an X3M and a M3. Yet, they went the extra mile to engineer a bespoke engine to suite E46 M3's characteristics specifically and that made the E46 M3 that much more special.

ps. I think @martinbo 's post above captures how I feel exactly about this exactly, so I think there is nothing more to add.

 

[dalab]

I understand that it arouses passions, the engine is a key issue in the performance and soul of the car, it would be good to wait to see how it drives, in the first instance at least the exhaust sounds much better than the previous one

 

[Matski]

Why? To make it better. Or do you think the current engine is perfect and can't be improved?

More vaguery? Thanks. It would be 'better' in some respects if it had a V12, it would 'better' in some respects if it had a 600hp 4-pot boosted to shit, it would be 'better' in some respects if it had batteries and an electric motor... what metric are you using to define 'better'?

I don't think this engine is perfect, I don't think any engine is perfect, too many different solutions are too appealing for their own reason. I'll spare you my usual mass of words because I know that's when you mentally check-out, so I'll simply suggest you consider the roots of the M brand, and how that might apply in the modern world.

 

[Sunny]

More vaguery? Thanks. It would be 'better' in some respects if it had a V12, it would 'better' in some respects if it had a 600hp 4-pot boosted to shit, it would be 'better' in some respects if it had batteries and an electric motor... what metric are you using to define 'better'?

I don't think this engine is perfect, I don't think any engine is perfect, too many different solutions are too appealing for their own reason. I'll spare you my usual mass of words because I know that's when you mentally check-out, so I'll simply suggest you consider the roots of the M brand, and how that might apply in the modern world.

I think others got the point I was making without erecting strawman about v12s and 4 pots.

And I suggest you should try driving/living with M cars before lecturing others on the roots of M brand.

On another note - I didn't start this pointless conversation with you. I had a pretty enjoyable one with others on the topic. I doubt you enjoyed our exchange either. So why engage with me when you know very well I have a very low opinion of you and your grade of brand fanboyism? Maybe in another time when I was one too it would have been different.

 

[Merc1]

I understand that it arouses passions, the engine is a key issue in the performance and soul of the car, it would be good to wait to see how it drives, in the first instance at least the exhaust sounds much better than the previous one

This looks much better at this angle. I can't wait to see this and all the other new cars in person. No auto shows now so it's going to be a dealer or on the road now, how awful.

M

 

[Mii]

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[Matski]

I think others got the point I was making without erecting strawman about v12s and 4 pots.

I think you're avoiding a simple question for multiple posts in a row 'cause you said something but can't back it up.

And I suggest you should try driving/living with M cars before lecturing others on the roots of M brand.

This is plain horseshit gatekeeping, and I spared you the lecture on the roots of the M brand - so to what lecture are you referring?

On another note - I didn't start this pointless conversation with you. I had a pretty enjoyable one with others on the topic. I doubt you enjoyed our exchange either.

I'm indifferent as it happens. I like that you can string a coherent argument together despite your inability to leave personal remarks out of posts, and of course... you're free to not respond to my posts.

So why engage with me when you know very well I have a very low opinion of you and your grade of brand fanboyism

... because I don't validate my contributions based on your opinion of them. Also, my grade of fanboyism? That's funny. I mean yeah... I'm a fanboy, but I'd be interested to see you quote my posts on any new BMW since I joined the forum and demonstrate they're based on simple bias.

Maybe in another time when I was one too it would have been different.

Lol, you mean before you got butt-hurt over getting a temporary ban (that wasn't even me by the way), or before you joined the church of the E-Loon that finds a way to criticise anything ICE if it fits a narrative?

 

[Sunny]

^Jeez, this is just sad, man.

Sincere opinion - I don't think it is healthy you are taking this criticism of engine of a car you don't even own so negatively. I am sort of a Porsche fan, I even owned a GT4, but it didn't stop me from saying the engine on that car was far from special. I don't know why you take these things so personally and make a fool of yourself.

 

[Cashmere]

This is plain horseshit gatekeeping, and I spared you the lecture on the roots of the M brand - so to what lecture are you referring?

There you go, blowing a gasket again. Dude, seriously, why do you BMW Fanboys get emotional over petty stuff?

 

[Matski]

There you go, blowing a gasket again.

Provide an answer?

 

[Cashmere]

Regretfully, a lot of the bad practices used by Daimler have proved to be profitable (one engine in all 'sport' cars, the AMG/M brand slapped on everything with four wheels and so on).

But there is a stark difference - BMW created the narrative around "M philosophy" and used it as a strategic narrative to define and differentiate the brand during its formidable years. BMW painted this narrative for decades and forced themselves into a corner - such that they have made a U turn on all the things they said they would "never" do. Yet still, the fanboys show up singing nothing but praise for the M cars and blow a fuse if anyone says anything that is remotely critical.

AMG never backed themselves into a corner and didn't say crap like we'll never make a front wheel drive car or never make X. Whether you saw an AMG badge on an A class or an R Class, you knew you were getting outrageous performance. Period.

 

[martinbo]

I think we're getting at each other's throats for no real reason. This is such a subjective aspect of auto enthusiasm - that intangible and entirely personal view of what makes a car (or engine) special. You could be an absolute car nut and still dislike NA engines because you're addicted to turbo boost - I know lots of guys who feel this way. They're not interested in the nuances of throttle control, they just want to mash it and go. [Plebeians].

So, plainly, one man's special is another's not so special. Let's stop going at each other over something that's so personally subjective and focus back on the G8x siblings - the two hottest ugly cars to be released this year.

 

[Rolf]

Yes "bespoke" is the term I was looking for. And that is what vexes me more, than it not being new. The fact it is shared with an SUV! An SUV and sports car should have different demands on the engine and hence ideally should have different engines.

BMW M cars in the past were like real thoroughbreds with their high revving NA engine that were bespoke and unique to each model range. Nowadays they just not special anymore, the same engine, gearbox and even AWD system will be shared with SUV's, saloons and coupes and roadsters. BMW M and AMG/RS models are becoming more mass market cars now.

 

[CrunchSlaughtered]

BMW M cars in the past were like real thoroughbreds with their high revving NA engine that were bespoke and unique to each model range. Nowadays they just not special anymore, the same engine, gearbox and even AWD system will be shared with SUV's, saloons and coupes and roadsters. BMW M and AMG/RS models are becoming more mass market cars now.

As the CEOs of these companies confirmed - the profit is the driving force. But not all customers would agree with this and they would eagerly change the country of origin of their car the moment there is a decent alternative.
And with saying this I'm not trying to deny the need for profit, but it should come at the end and not to be the starting point. Good products and earned cult status bring also profits not only milking the holy cows. The tits of these cows will be dry soon.

 

[MrRapp]

But not just yet..

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[David Brent]

I don't get the marketing of M at the moment. This video seems to targeted at teenagers. A demographic which can't afford them. The video does absolutely nothing for me, and I would be quite embarrassed to show it to my wife for fear that she'd say I'm too old at 43 to buy one.