New BMW Engine, 3.0 I6 TwinPower Turbo (N55)

[Mr Robert]

...and that is why Porsche now seems like the natural choise - they are still making their best cars. BMW has been hit hard by the compromise-axe while the others have avoided this.

 

[EnI]

...and that is why Porsche now seems like the natural choise - they are still making their best cars. BMW has been hit hard by the compromise-axe while the others have avoided this.

BMW hasn't such brand cache as Porsche does - and thus being able to charge more for the cars, making much bigger profits.

Porsche is a niche brand ... BMW is much more mainstream. Apples to oranges.

And in the next months (or even weeks) Porsche will end up being "just another" brand under Volkswagen AG umbrella. Sure everybody are saying there will be no changes made, and the brand will stay independent --- but for how long? VAG engines & co - here they come. Mind Winterkorn will probably run the new company - not the Wiedelking. Good for Audi, bad for Porsche - since Audi will definitely go for some Porsche tech candies.

Regarding Porsche being uncompromised ... they introduced an SUV years ago, and now they came out with a sedan / fastback. Not to mention this: go out & drive some older models of 911, and the latest one - which feels like a Merc compared to teh older models which were much purer racers. So much about compromises ... Not to mention PDK gearbox, or automatic - in a Porsche etc.

C'mon ... even MB is much sportier today than ever. Although MB was never about sport - except the special models.

Everything changes. And from your perspective - for the worse. From my perpective the view is much brighter & more optimistic.

 

[braaf]

there is also a revolution going on in gearbox department

Eni, do you mean DCT and auto boxes, cos I'm a bit dissapointed that BMW are not filtering DCT down to to lesser models as well and other series (1,5 and 7) and M (X5,X6 and M5) cars.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Yet here we are in an era where BMW has introduced forced induction to pretty much all of their cars including M. Introduced a force inducted low revving M car WITH AN AUTOMATIC that happens to be without rear wheel drive (basically all the things BMW fans "loathed") and most are now warming up to it....

Er...what? Where is your evidence of this?

 

[Sayyaaf]

Eni: I respect your point of view most of the time but sometimes it makes less sense especially when comparing BMW to other brands. Porsche is going softer ? I think not, wait being usable for everyday is not the same as used to be in the past, yes in the past Porsche used to be more hardcore with only coil springs and fast rack& pinions but nowadays you can achieve the same "if not better" results with everyday usability which is why also the new M3 is better than the E46 in a similar manner.

It is more usable for daily activities than the outgoing model yet stronger and better all around performer. Thanks to some nice suspension settings and PASM Porsche could achieve the same results to the older 911s and pumping those engines to the MAX have compensated the added weight. Numbers weren't disappointing especially on the famous tracks. Now regarding Porsche using PDK/Auto's. I think Porsche were responsible for the first Tiptronic Auto trannys and the PDK technology were invented or used back in the 80's but with today's technology they can be implemented on main streem cars which can guarantee best shifting time with the same smoothness of an Auto.

My point is, Porsche has not forgotten about their history while introducing new segments that they are not famous of. But from what we have seen with the cayenne, they mastered everysingle segment they entered by providing a new benchmark to the segment. The cayenne (almost a ten year old technology) is still the best in the market until the X5/6 M hits the roads. Fast steering, adaptive chasis and so on and so forth, not to mention the engine although Porsche is discreet when it comes to revealing technology but I think the 4.8TT has a much better characteristics than BMW's 4.4TT. Faster response with almost no lag and the power is always there regardless of the RPM.

Bottom line: Porsche has changed but still hardcore racing driven brand and the GT3/GT2 is the proof. While BMW seems to abandon their racing heritage by adding a more "focus" main streem cars ....


Now regarding BMW. Although some might disslike where they are going but actually I think they have a better strategic plan than most of the manufacturers. Yes they canceled the CSL series but I like the fact they are not going to be "another luxury brand". They will offer Niche products and they will or will continue doing more road focused products for almost every one on earth. I dreamed of seeing what could BMW do to rival the R8 or Ferrari but I wouldn't be disappointed if they didn't since that is not what they are famous of any way. If I want a ferrari I'd buy a ferrari, end of story. If I want an every day sedan or SUV with driver orientation being in mind then I'd go for BMW without any hesitation. BUT my only concern, is that if Porsche is welling to tackle any mainstream segment, am afraid BMW should feel threatened since Porsche has no compromises when it comes to road feel and driver orientation which is BMW's selling point.

Sorry for the long post and although I haven't brought anything new to the table I am just reorganizing some of other's posts in my own way

 

[EnI]

As said: carmakers deliver what customers ask to be delivered ...

Remember the Audi engineer who said marketing had demanded from the R&D team to make A5 to understeer more than engineers wanted to - since Audi customers are used to moderate understeer, and are comfortable with that feeling.

You don't have data what BMW customers demand / want, and what are demands of Porsche customers.

Marketing can't deny customers wishes - since the point of making products is to satisfy customer's wishes & demands. I'm sure BMW would want to to stick with more hardcore cars but vast majority of customers want more comfort & every-day-convenience - since typical BMW throttle, brake, shifter & suspension response is to sensitive (jerky) when driving in day-to-day urban traffic (read: traffic jams, or from-one-trafiiclight-to-another driving). Such complaints are very loud & numerous ... BMW cars are too sporty for the majority of the customers. Therefore

Be sure BMW are finding hard times to reach best compromise between sport & comfort - risking to make cars that will be too much "jack of all trades, master of none".

Regarding Porsche turbos - they use diesel tech: variable geometry turbines made of exotic alloys - and therefore very expensive. But Porsche can afford that since it's turbo models are sold with a huge extra premium price. While BMW turbos are regular turbos - for "civil" cars. While Porsche turbos can be comaperd to M engines - more exotic etc.

And as said: Porsche can afford much better solutions - since they can easily price them higher than BMW can. Since people are ready to pay more for a Porsche. Same case for eg. MB. While eg. Audi & Lexus have an advantage of having rich "parents" - so they can justify R&D costs due to future economy of scales (solutions are then used in mass models ... Toyota, VW, Skoda etc).

BMW are somehow lost in between: they have no rich parents, nor having enough brand cache to push prices higher. Therefore they are trying that ... pushing the brand & cars upscale. But this road is steep & slow. A long journey.

Not to mention all the new regulations - environmental & safety ones - requiring huge investments in R&D, and other innovations (eg. production etc).

Therefore different brands / companies are in different positions - having to pick different strategies & tactics to reach the goal. Trying their best ...

 

[nalyd]

No problem, there is always Porsche for those of us who like what BMW once stood for.

Of course - I can get the feeling of nostalgia as you sit in traffic with your Audi Diesel engined Cayenne whilst dreaming of being pulled by the tractor on the farm as a youngster

Let us not forget that BMW is in the business of making and selling performance vehicles. In the future they have to find more economies of scale to remain truly independent - if this means a V6 then so be it - we will all have our little cry and moan, but at the end of the day, we will still buy BMW's because we love the company and its products.

Most people who buy BMW's (especially here in JHB) could care less what engine they have - all they care about is the White Propellor and what it stands for. I would imagine that true brand aficionados who would not purchase an M3 based on the angle of its cylinders would make up less than 1% of total customers.

 

[nalyd]

Hey, Dylan, sorry for the late response - you know what life & business in Jozi can be like: it never rains...

I think the questions that you've posed a highly topical and relevant and so my thanks for your contribution - this forum could use a bit more technical appreciators. [Viewers of this thread excepted]

So, BMW's patented reverse-flow V-engined cylinder heads and twin-scroll turbocharging... does this signal the death-knell of M engines as we know them? We can only speculate for now.

Let's start with the concept of a reverse-flow V6 version of the S63 twin-turbo, twinpower (these are twinscroll turbos of course) engine. A V8 engine's optimal angle between the two banks of pistons is 90 degrees. Because of this there's sufficient space between the V to add the plumbing required for the turbos. Traditionallly, V6s require a different cylinder angle for optimal balance - 60 degrees - and this would present a packaging problem for the turbocharging componentry. However, Audi uses a 90 degree V6 within which to mount its supercharger in the new A6 and S4 and although this necessitates the use of balancer shafts, the engine has been deemed to be very smooth.

So, technically, there should be no reason why there "can't" be an S63-derived V6 M engine. And, from an engineering perspective, there are tangible cost, technology leveraging and packaging benefits. Beyond purity, traditionalism and customer sentiment, a V6 can make sense in many ways: A V6, because of its more compact block and short crankshaft, is should actually be lighter than a comparable inline 6. Its short length means that it can be positioned more easily behind the front axle without forcing the interior bulkhead back toward the cabin. Other benefits include tooling synergies and component commonality between it and its V8 sibling - in much the same way that the S65 shares a significant amount of parts with the S85 V10.

Whether BMW "should" pursue such an approach is an altogether different debate as the whole reason for why BMW does an inline 6 compared with every other mass car maker out there as been extoled for an age in their own marketing material.

Furthermore, for all the synergies between the S63 and its possible six cylinder offspring, there are as many compelling reasons to make an S55 out of the current generation of inline sixes.

Hi Martin - thanks for the response. I would love to contribute more consistently, but just do not have the time - bad excuse, but life in Jozi is pretty hectic

I completely agree with the stance that you have taken - the only comment that I want to make on it is that the current M3 V8 is based on the V10 from the M5 and M6. It is quite clear that both of these engines will probably be the last in a proud history of high-revving naturally aspirated engines from BMW M GmbH - sad but true.

BMW M need economies of scale with their performance engine range. Even though they are quite arrogant around how MB use one engine for their entire AMG range saying that it is not the best solution, the fact is that no car manufacturer can afford to have three or four bespoke performance engines within the same era of development - it is just not feasible.

With the V10 being consigned to history, BMW M need a broader sheet for their new engine range - this could be just the basis for the new M3 being a V6.

Alternatively, the fact that the new BMW M V8 engine is based on the existing Reverse-Flow V8 could be the scale answer that I am looking for.

What is true is that this is an interesting debate and one that we can all follow quite closely.

Edit to add - Eni, you do more damage to BMW with your constant defensive stance. No matter what you say, people will continue to have thier own opinions.

Speaking freely, you would save yourself a lot of time (and keep the quality of the thread at a high standard) by being a little less predictable. I am not flaming you or anything but rather saying that this is a high quality thread with some really good technical insight that you cannot find anywhere else.

Unfortunately this BMW defense approach seems to litter the place and I must admit that it gets tiring.

Just my R 0.02, oops sorry, my $ 0.02.

Regards,
Dylan

 

[EnI]

Unfortunately this BMW defense approach seems to litter the place and I must admit that it gets tiring.

I'm just fighting the ignorance. Try to educating.
Although some calling that "BSing" / "propaganda" / "PR spin" etc

I try to explain people know what's happening in the backstage ... behind the curtains.

Knowing insights opens a completely new perspective ... Since some facts differ much from the "facts" presented in some (automotive) media.

Is it tiring? Perhaps. But I'll never stop ... since I can't stand the ignorance. Ignorance should be exterminated. Unfortunately many are too much focused on the style & form of my write-ups, and not so much on the content.

 

[Mr Robert]

of course - i can get the feeling of nostalgia as you sit in traffic with your audi diesel engined cayenne whilst dreaming of being pulled by the tractor on the farm as a youngster

I think you and I have different views of a typical Porsche

 

[Mr Robert]

I try to explain people know what's happening in the backstage ... behind the curtains.

Just tell us then. Filter away the marketing mumbo-jumbo about the X5M being just as much BMW M as the M3. That is what I call ignorance... or even worse.

 

[Sunny]

Just tell us then. Filter away the marketing mumbo-jumbo about the X5M being just as much BMW M as the M3. That is what I call ignorance... or even worse.

Here is what is happening. BMW figures out the market for souped up SUV is big enough and want a part of the pie. Believe me, if the pie was big enough they (and Porsche and Ferrari and every one else) will slap their badges even on a tractor. All that changes is how big the pie needs to be.

Reminds me of a joke my ex boss told me. A guy at bar sees a super hot ass chick and wants to do her. So he goes up to her and asks if she will sleep with him for $100. She splashes her drink on his face and asks him, "***, do you think I am a whore?". So, he wipes his face and calmly asks "how about for a million?" So she pauses and thinks and says, "okay, but I have to see the money first". So the dude says, "okay, now that we have established that you are a whore, how about for $1000?"

 

[EnI]

Just tell us then. Filter away the marketing mumbo-jumbo about the X5M being just as much BMW M as the M3. That is what I call ignorance... or even worse.

The problem is that many of you think of "marketing" as of the worst propaganda.

It's not a propaganda at all.

And marketing is not mainly about company but about the people: what people want, and how can company satisfy their wishes (and staying profitable).

I'm sorry if you find yourself in the minority - being outnumbered by customers who want some different cars. And of course - if a company see a good opportunity for making a profit while satisfying quite some customers ... BINGO! A win-win situation. If you don't like X5M - don't buy it. Ignore it. Same case with 5er GT. If you are in the market for 3er sedan & eg. M3 coupe - then care about these two models.

Also - not everyone's wish can be addressed ... Only when there's a critical mass of same demands - then the company is ready to listen ... addressing the demand.

And be sure the only demand that is constant over the decades is - make BMW cars more comfortable. Yet - for the sake of brand value & identity BMW are giving people much less comfort & much more sport they still want.

So, expect the next generation of 7er to be even more comfortable ... And Z4 too. And 3er too , incl M3 etc. It's what people want - beside the typical BMW spirit. Which will always be there.

 

[Mr Robert]

Thanks Eni, great post.

No, marketing is not propaganda. I agree. But in some cases one starts to wonder how on earth people buys some of the things said. The X5M, thing for instance, that vehicle has nothing to do with "M", other than a badge.

But like you say, BMW probably does not cater for my needs anymore. Maybe when the economy has regained its full strenght, even BMW would dare to build somethig out of mainstream. I sure hope so, I like the brand, its image and the ability to do something really great once in a while.

 

[PanterroR]

The X5M, thing for instance, that vehicle has nothing to do with "M", other than a badge.

Just because it's an 2+ tons SAV?

I think it's too early to say that... BMW has NEVER put an M logo on a car just like that...You know that...

 

[EnI]

True ...

The customers of original M30 M3, or E36 M3 ... or even regular 3ers ... or the Z3 owners etc. I'm sure they are disappointed with the new cars.

So are the kids who want drifting machines - like old 3ers & 5ers were. Even regular cars featuring LSDs etc.

The fact is BMW brand is much more mature now - than some naughty yuppie brand like it was in the 80s.

The E46 M3 CSL was the only try to get back to the roots - and it was a bloody expensive try.

BMW ain't a sports car brand like eg. Porsche, Ferrari, Lotus, Aston Martin, etc. BMW is a brand of regular sporty cars. A carmaker that offers eg. most sporty compact sedans available. Or wagons etc. Not a racing cars brand, or exotic cars brand. No. BMW is about regular passenger cars.

As said many times ... the point of BMW isn't M. M is just a cherry on a top. But not the main point of BMW. The main point of BMW are sporty 120i, 320d, or 530d, or X6 xDrive50i etc. That's what makes BMW special - the whole range being sporty (than competitors) ... from 116i to 760Li.

And M was ( / is) there to celebrate BMW's motorsport involvement & success. M is not a brand per se - trying to compete with Porsche. Since it can't - being based on regular models, not being specially designed to be a sports car. Yes, M cars are more redesigned then eg. AMG cars but they still aren't on the same level then eg. Porsche cars.

I guess right now BMW customers are more than satisfied with Performance Parts on 1er & 3er 35i (incl. power boost to 326HP).

Btw, have any car magazine ever driven a 135i or 335i with all the performance parts available (incl. power boost)? I guess not. IMO they are missing a lot.

 

[PanterroR]

Btw, have any car magazine ever driven a 135i or 335i with all the performance parts available (incl. power boost)? I guess not. IMO they are missing a lot.

http://www.germancarforum.com/1-series/28888-exclusive-bmw-performance-135-first-drive.html

 

[Mr Robert]

Btw, have any car magazine ever driven a 135i or 335i with all the performance parts available (incl. power boost)? I guess not. IMO they are missing a lot.

The one done by Bimmerfile is the only comprehensive one I have seen.

Mixed reception.

I think it is strange that BMW have not promoted these products more. I love these things, BMW have done the same to the MINI range. In fact, it is almost exactly the same things that are offered.

Why no real limited slip differential?

 

[EnI]

http://www.germancarforum.com/1-series/28888-exclusive-bmw-performance-135-first-drive.html

Thanks.

Conclusions: The 135i is a great car by itself without any modifications but with them, it is a far better car. The suspension is a huge improvement over the stock setup, while you do sacrifice some ride characteristics the handling more than makes up for it. Add in the shifter and exhaust and you have a car that will make you smile every time you get behind the wheel, you will find yourself running to get that bottle of milk you do not need on a regular basis.

After the Geneva auto show we broke the news to the US market that an engine tune was coming for the N54 twin turbo in the 135i/335i. If so equipped you would be hard pressed to find a car that would handle better, sound better, or perform better at a similar price point than a BMW Performance 135i.

But I'm waiting for a true test comparison between eg. stock 135i / 335i vs 135i / 335i with all the possible Performance Parts (incl power / torque boost).

I don't know why mags don't do that. Or why BMW is not pushing that more. The dynamic difference between stock & Performance cars is quite obvious - not purely cosmetic.

Or 335i PP 326HP vs M3 comparison would be also interesting - to point out the differences & the similarities.





Regarding LSD - BMW are saving it for the M cars. To differentiate Ms from the regular cars more. Otherwise people will only have to tune their regular 335i to get a true performer. That would be even more evident when M shifts to turbo entirely.

 

[martinbo]

Great thread this, perhaps moving a little off topic relative to the discussion around this engine but still topical and relevant. I've got a whole lot to splurge out here so I'll tackle each topic as I go...

I've always respected EnI's role here at GCF. Beyond mere creative marketing, EnI has always had a strong passion for the debate and an unrelenting desire to change peoples perceptions about BMW. EnI's a great influencer - so kudos for that. We can't ignore the fact that we're seeing rapid transformation in the automotive industry. From fallen giants to electric Elises, we're witnessing the most significant change event since, well, the beginning of automotive era. This is heralded by the arrival of usable electric and hybrid powerplants. They may not yet be the nth word in efficiency, cradle-to-grave environmental friendliness or performance but there's no denying it - this is the way of the future. And, any car maker worth its beans is going to have to adapt in order for long-term survival. BMW is a mass car maker - it's just been very, very good at making cars that are good to drive as a result of an internal philosophy around the enjoyment of driving. What we need to appreciate is that BMW has to adapt and this is what EnI is telling us here.

Let's consider the inline 6 engine for a moment; it's as long as a V12 and almost as heavy as a modern V8, costly to engineer and requires very specific packaging in order to achieve a good front-to-rear weight balance. Now, what if the next step for BMW is hybrid technology wherein the electric motor sits between this long engine and the transmission - how practical would that be? Surely a shorter V6 (perhaps turbocharged) with an electric motor in series would be easier to package? Certainly it would far more readily help achieve that fabled 50:50 weight distribution than an inline 6 hybrid would.

The problem in the minds of car fanatics the world over is this: at this point the current crop of reciprocating engine-powered performance cars are far, far better to drive than any hybrid or fully electrical car. They're also faster and corner better - witness the Elise vs Tesla result in the previous issue of EVO - directly attributable to being lighter, more powerful and more responsive. BUT, at the rate that this technology is evolving, we will very soon see impressive progress in the performance delivery capabilities of hybrid and, eventually, fully electric cars. This is, after all, the electronic age.

As fond as I am of a purely mechanical, fossil-fueled V8 with 8 throttle bodies and forged what-not, I'm afraid to say that the concept - as visceral and enthralling as it is - is unsustainable. A small electric motor can add a quick 200 Nm from idle to any engine and, coupled with a future, compact, efficient-yet-sporty, M-developed engine, should still provide the necessary motive force to engage the enthusiast driver.

As long as there are enthusiasts out there, there will always be a need for performance cars. So whilst the spirit will be the same, the experience will be different.

It's very interesting to note EnI's comments on the next generation of BMWs becoming even more comfortable than current ones - even M models. It's funny how fans of the old-school lament the weight gains and luxury additions to the current crop of M cars and yet, in EVO the E92 M3 positively destroyed the old E30 M3 by over 7 seconds around Bedford. And... why is it so much faster and yet more comfortable, spacious and luxurious? Because the people who bought them wanted it that way.

Still, heaven only knows, I for one will lament the passing of this, the zenith of the fossil fuel powered car era, because it's been one helluva ride. And, anyone who's ever experienced the awesome thrill of a high-revving M engine at full taps will be sad to see them go. In my opinion, some engine makers express performance engineering to such a degree that it can be viewed it as an art. And, BMW is one of those makers. So EnI, there's no surprise that the brand's biggest and most knowledgeable fans are desperately afraid that, in the future, there will be nothing from an engineering perspective (and thus driver appeal) to differentiate BMW from every other car brand out there. This is the concern of scores of BMW fans the world over.

Nonetheless, maybe we fans can cling on to the hope that BMW will keep the venerable and iconic six-cylinder experience around for as long as it possibly can - here's hoping that the new M engine for the M3 is a 9000 rpm, twin-whatever-turbo, straight six S55.
A V6 in an M3? How totally unremarkable, regardless of how much it makes sense.