New BMW Engine, 3.0 I6 TwinPower Turbo (N55)

[PanterroR]

^Like always - a pleasure to read...

 

[Mr Robert]

I don't know why mags don't do that. Or why BMW is not pushing that more. The dynamic difference between stock & Performance cars is quite obvious - not purely cosmetic.

I have had the JCW suspension installed in my Cooper S and it is probably the best darned piece of OEM modification you can do to the car.

Regarding LSD - BMW are saving it for the M cars. To differentiate Ms from the regular cars more. Otherwise people will only have to tune their regular 335i to get a true performer. That would be even more evident when M shifts to turbo entirely.

Why not make the M cars better, so that a mere chip and an LSD would not be sufficient No, it is great to have some special things for M... or the aftermarket.

 

[EnI]

Why not make the M cars better, so that a mere chip and an LSD would not be sufficient No, it is great to have some special things for M... or the aftermarket.

As said: Ms are based on "civil" platforms - although powertrian, drivetrain & chassis are somehow heavily modified. But the platform is still there - and the trend is to offer more & more comfortable platforms. So, M engineers have to work even harder to produce better Ms. It would be easier to have more even sporty regular platforme as a base to work on, but ... As said: BMW is not about racing / sporty performance cars as eg. Porsche. The customer needs are different.

Also ... M engineers could easily make an M3 to perform like 911 - but in such case M3 would cost €200k, and max. 500 pieces or so would be sold. Not a good business scenario for BMW.

It's also about costs, and pricing - as said: people are still not willing to pay huge money for BMW. MB & Porsche have easier job here. Therefore excessively expensive Turbo S / GT3 & AMG BS models can be produced & sold. BMW isn't so lucky in this respect.

 

[bilen]

Quote:
"...people are still not willing to pay huge money for BMW. MB & Porsche have easier job here. Therefore excessively expensive Turbo S / GT3 & AMG BS models can be produced & sold. BMW isn't so lucky in this respect."

True, but image is something you have to build. An M1 or something would be a example. Audi seems to be building image with the R8.

Reportedly Alfa don't make any money on the 8C though they cut the marketing money on behalf of the car and got more publicity than they could have bought.

Although I understand the need to meet future emission requirements, beeing first in the premium class with a 3 cyl will probably not build image.

 

[Mr Robert]

True, but image is something you have to build. An M1 or something would be a example. Audi seems to be building image with the R8.

We have allready been told that BMW does not need to build an image that way as the 116i takes care of that part.

 

[EnI]

The problem is BMW brand already has a sporty image. Even too much of it in some markets.

Therefore people consider BMW as a premium sporty, and not as much as a luxury brand - therefore not many are willing to pay too much on sporty performance (if eg. they can get Subaru or Mitsubishi etc for much less money), while the brand still hasn't enough luxury image to be able to charge huge premiums like Porsche or MB. Not a rosy situation.

So, image wise BMW don't need even more emphasis on sport. What they do need is an emphasis on luxury - therefore all the GTs ... 5er GT, 6er GT and (for now frozen) 7er GT. Offering extra luxury & comfort, or at least luxury image.

Sure Audi, Alfa & Co have to (re)build their sporty image - therefore all the supercars coming from their production lines. To persuade people the brand is sporty - and the products ooze as much sporty spirit as the supercar in the portfolio does. BMW don't need that. They already ooze too much sport - in general ... over the entire model range.

We had this discussion many times here.
What BMW strive for is to come close to Jaguar image: being both sporty & luxurious. Having a perfect balance.

Thanks God Jaguar is now kind a limited brand - without serious volume anbitions. Otherwise BMW would be toasted. Also others are coming closer as well ... Alfa, Audi, Infiniti etc. Although all of them still not having huge image cache. It's true Audi is doing its best now: trying to portray the brand as sporty & luxury ("New luxury") at the same time.

And BMW aren't standing still ...

To reinforce the point of BMW brand BMW AG are launching the "Joy" image campaign worldwide in the next months (eg. it starts in Summer in Europe, while US will be able to see it in early 2010).

And to show the comitmnet to sports / racing performance a sporty-performance green vehicle will be shown in the near future - as a Concept.

 

[Mr Robert]

And to show the comitmnet to sports / racing performance a sporty-performance green vehicle will be shown in the near future - as a Concept.

But nothing for real? Green supersportscar would really make sense as the technology is still very expensive.

 

[EnI]

But nothing for real? Green supersportscar would really make sense as the technology is still very expensive.

A promise for the near future. Just showing where BMW are heading to.

 

[Mr Robert]

A promise for the near future. Just showing where BMW are heading to.

An imaginary goal is better than no goal

This type of concepts are great for telling people what BMW wants to do.

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

The problem is BMW brand already has a sporty image. Even too much of it in some markets.

Therefore people consider BMW as a premium sporty, and not as much as a luxury brand - therefore not many are willing to pay too much on sporty performance (if eg. they can get Subaru or Mitsubishi etc for much less money), while the brand still hasn't enough luxury image to be able to charge huge premiums like Porsche or MB. Not a rosy situation.

So, image wise BMW don't need even more emphasis on sport. What they do need is an emphasis on luxury - therefore all the GTs ... 5er GT, 6er GT and (for now frozen) 7er GT. Offering extra luxury & comfort, or at least luxury image.

Sure Audi, Alfa & Co have to (re)build their sporty image - therefore all the supercars coming from their production lines. To persuade people the brand is sporty - and the products ooze as much sporty spirit as the supercar in the portfolio does. BMW don't need that. They already ooze too much sport - in general ... over the entire model range.

We had this discussion many times here.
What BMW strive for is to come close to Jaguar image: being both sporty & luxurious. Having a perfect balance.

Thanks God Jaguar is now kind a limited brand - without serious volume anbitions. Otherwise BMW would be toasted. Also others are coming closer as well ... Alfa, Audi, Infiniti etc. Although all of them still not having huge image cache. It's true Audi is doing its best now: trying to portray the brand as sporty & luxury ("New luxury") at the same time.

And BMW aren't standing still ...

To reinforce the point of BMW brand BMW AG are launching the "Joy" image campaign worldwide in the next months (eg. it starts in Summer in Europe, while US will be able to see it in early 2010).

And to show the comitmnet to sports / racing performance a sporty-performance green vehicle will be shown in the near future - as a Concept.

It sounds like BMW are scared of Audi encroaching, very succesfully, on their territory and are trying to reposition the brand accordingly. That's not really how the brand became great is it.

This engine on the other hand looks to be an absolute gem. It's so disheartening to think MB is probably a whole generation behind with their V6's. Now if only those talks about engine sharing etc. came to fruition. BMW lends their fantastic sixes and MB lends thier fantastic gearboxes.

 

[martinbo]

^ Barring the forthcoming AMG Dual Clutch transaxle 'box on the SLS, I can't think of a single MB box that's superior to BMW's, or, that BMW would need from the Mercedes Benz stable.

Auto gearbox technology is totally subjective given the level of outsourcing of this component and as far as manual gearboxes go... well let's just say this hasn't been a Mercedes Benz forte.

 

[EnI]

It sounds like BMW are scared of Audi encroaching, very succesfully, on their territory and are trying to reposition the brand accordingly.

I'm not sure that's the case here.

The point is BMW want to add some more luxury punch to the brand image - so they will be able to charge even more for the top-end models. And being able to sell a non-M model at base price beyond €150k (eg. in German market) - and selling the car well.

BMW will still be very sporty in its very core, but are also trying to get some extra luxury image as well.

 

[Tarek]

It's so disheartening to think MB is probably a whole generation behind with their V6's. Now if only those talks about engine sharing etc. came to fruition. BMW lends their fantastic sixes and MB lends thier fantastic gearboxes.

Trust me the new turbo engines from Mb are coming.

 

[Zafiro]

If Audi is getting away with LSD for both S versions and RS versions, then BMW can do the same. BMw sometimes think weird, p***** thats what they are sometimes.

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

^ Barring the forthcoming AMG Dual Clutch transaxle 'box on the SLS, I can't think of a single MB box that's superior to BMW's, or, that BMW would need from the Mercedes Benz stable.

Auto gearbox technology is totally subjective given the level of outsourcing of this component and as far as manual gearboxes go... well let's just say this hasn't been a Mercedes Benz forte.

MB's autos are developed in house. Many regard them to be the best Luxury Auto's in the business, and this has certainly been my experience. Could be wrong though.

 

[Zafiro]

I've read several comparions where the automatic from BMW are getting the same positive feedback as MB gearboxes. That MB are superior in this area is nonsense. Both MB and BMW have fantastic gearboxes.

 

[martinbo]

MB's autos are developed in house. Many regard them to be the best Luxury Auto's in the business, and this has certainly been my experience. Could be wrong though.

Like I said, nowadays, many carmakers outsource their gearboxes to specialist sub-contracting manufacturers. Getrag, Borg-Warner and ZF are the technology leaders in the transmission industry and it's Jag's ZF 'box in the XF and XK that is deemed to be the best of the torque converter-types on the market. Merc's 7G-Tronic is, admittedly, great tech too - but objectively, not measurably superior in any respect.

Anyhoo, this isn't a thread about transmissions.

Back on topic regarding BMW's new twin-power technology and the discussion around where to from here from this iconic maker of the best, most characterful and most acclaimed mass-produced powerplants in the world.

Pity they haven't cottoned onto a turbo'd 2.0 litre 4 DI Petrol yet. :|

 

[EnI]

Pity they haven't cottoned onto a turbo'd 2.0 litre 4 DI Petrol yet. :|

Coming!

But the VTT 2.0L diesel 4-cyl engine was a priority - since it's more important than the petrol one, marketing wise. Especially in Euro markets.

Now all the other gaps are closed: V12 turbo is here, V8 turbo is here, I6 turbo is here, I6 & I4 VTT diesels are here, I6 multi-turbo almost here (as a V( diesel substitute) ... and now all the resources are directed into 4-cyl & 3-cyl turbo petrol engines. Incorporating all the know-how from the bigger engine "brothers". Expect some great engines!

But there is still a lot of work in the gearbox area. But the new 8-speed auto deals much better with turbo engines, further reducing the turbo-lag feel in V8 & V12.

 

[Mr Robert]

Interesting. Could this be the I4 intended for the SS version of the 1-series coupe?

 

[martinbo]

Thanks EnI, now I must ask - when?

Will we see the new turbo'd four in the E90 still? Maybe in the 3rd LCI phase?