New BMW Engine, 3.0 I6 TwinPower Turbo (N55)

[martinbo]

The real interesting question here is whether the same methodology applied to the new S63 engine (X5/X6 M) will make it onto the upcoming M 6-cylinder engine.

The methodology that I speak of is the patented exhaust system. I believe that it is a function of the new V8's turbo's being housed in the V thus allowing for the "Reverse-Flow" characteristics.

What I am really getting at here (and this is my own take based on reading the various technical write-ups on these magnificent powerplants), is that the key design requirement for the Reverse-Flow and M patented exhaust / turbo flow system is the fact that the engine is a V configuration and thus can have the turbo's housed on the inside of the V versus the traditional outside.

I actually find this quite concerning as it could mean the end of the venerable BMW inline 6, as this new technology seems only to be applicable to a V engine thus adding a bit more fuel to the fire that BMW may be switching to a V6 for the next range of engines (although the new N55 rebukes that assumption).

Nonetheless, it is an interesting debate and one that I am personally quite intrigued by. There is no doubt that BMW offer us amazing technical insight into each new engine that they release and it is great - everything they do (engine wise) just seems to be so far ahead of the competition (and I am not wanting to start a war over this, it is my own personal take on the subject).

Martin - From a technical understanding and analysis, you seem to have the best insight on this forum. What is your take on my point of view? Is the new M patented exhaust system (that allows for consistent versus irregular gas pules into the turbo chargers) only applicable in a V engine with reverse-flow?

Thank you to all for a very informative thread so far

Regards,
Dylan

Hey, Dylan, sorry for the late response - you know what life & business in Jozi can be like: it never rains...

I think the questions that you've posed a highly topical and relevant and so my thanks for your contribution - this forum could use a bit more technical appreciators. [Viewers of this thread excepted]

So, BMW's patented reverse-flow V-engined cylinder heads and twin-scroll turbocharging... does this signal the death-knell of M engines as we know them? We can only speculate for now.

Let's start with the concept of a reverse-flow V6 version of the S63 twin-turbo, twinpower (these are twinscroll turbos of course) engine. A V8 engine's optimal angle between the two banks of pistons is 90 degrees. Because of this there's sufficient space between the V to add the plumbing required for the turbos. Traditionallly, V6s require a different cylinder angle for optimal balance - 60 degrees - and this would present a packaging problem for the turbocharging componentry. However, Audi uses a 90 degree V6 within which to mount its supercharger in the new A6 and S4 and although this necessitates the use of balancer shafts, the engine has been deemed to be very smooth.

So, technically, there should be no reason why there "can't" be an S63-derived V6 M engine. And, from an engineering perspective, there are tangible cost, technology leveraging and packaging benefits. Beyond purity, traditionalism and customer sentiment, a V6 can make sense in many ways: A V6, because of its more compact block and short crankshaft, is should actually be lighter than a comparable inline 6. Its short length means that it can be positioned more easily behind the front axle without forcing the interior bulkhead back toward the cabin. Other benefits include tooling synergies and component commonality between it and its V8 sibling - in much the same way that the S65 shares a significant amount of parts with the S85 V10.

Whether BMW "should" pursue such an approach is an altogether different debate as the whole reason for why BMW does an inline 6 compared with every other mass car maker out there as been extoled for an age in their own marketing material.

Furthermore, for all the synergies between the S63 and its possible six cylinder offspring, there are as many compelling reasons to make an S55 out of the current generation of inline sixes.

 

[EnI]

^ Relax, it's just Eni trying to push those thoughts into our minds. There is no V6 BMW coming. BMW 'creative marketing' threw that in for more debate. Remember, debate = publicity...it's one of Eni's finest lines.....

As said: just remember the days when CreativeMarketing team was "planting some weird ideas in your mind" about turbocharged engines in BMW cars.

And recall my thread about AWD M etc ...

The V6 debate is not a hoax.

You'll see much more "blasphemous" stuff from BMW in the future ... V6, I3, multi-turbos, hybrid Ms, perhaps even M diesels etc.
We are just trying to prepare you for the upcoming "shocks". So, you don't suffer form heart attack when press release arrives.

 

[PanterroR]

You'll see much more "blasphemous" stuff from BMW in the future ... V6, I3, multi-turbos, hybrid Ms, perhaps even M diesels etc.
We are just trying to prepare you for the upcoming "shocks". So, you don't suffer form heart attack when press release arrives.

Remember that you live very close...

 

[Mr Robert]

As said: just remember the days when CreativeMarketing team was "planting some weird ideas in your mind" about turbocharged engines in BMW cars.

And recall my thread about AWD M etc ...

The V6 debate is not a hoax.

You'll see much more "blasphemous" stuff from BMW in the future ... V6, I3, multi-turbos, hybrid Ms, perhaps even M diesels etc.
We are just trying to prepare you for the upcoming "shocks". So, you don't suffer form heart attack when press release arrives.

Rememeber, a "M" badge does not make a "M" car.

 

[bmer]

Sorry, but sacrificing perfect primary and secondary mechanical balance and the best six cylinder engines there are for the sake of being able to fit turbos more efficiently sounds completely irresponsible.

I will lose most of the respect I have for the brand if they abandon inline-6s. If that happens they might as well ditch RWD and start making FWD BMWs...

 

[bum-man]

I'm sure all of you will come to terms with it once it's announced, I mean you have to right?

 

[Mr Robert]

I'm sure all of you will come to terms with it once it's announced, I mean you have to right?

No, if there are no reasons left to prefer BMW, why stay loyal?

 

[bmer]

I'm sure all of you will come to terms with it once it's announced, I mean you have to right?

Well, I think I've been here enough long that you knew I'm not the type of guy who says something like this very often. So when I do I actually mean it. If BMW abandons such important factors that are the basis for my appreciation for the company and their products, then there is nothing left that keeps me preferring them over the competitors.

 

[bum-man]

All the complaining I'm hearing now is exactly the same as what I heard back in GCF (several years ago) about high revving normal aspired engines, H-gate manual transmissions, RWD only M-cars, etc. Yet here we are in an era where BMW has introduced forced induction to pretty much all of their cars including M. Introduced a force inducted low revving M car WITH AN AUTOMATIC that happens to be without rear wheel drive (basically all the things BMW fans "loathed") and most are now warming up to it...
I don't really know what else to say except if you're going to continue complaining at least be consistent when it comes out. I would be serenely dissapointed if you guys pull a 180 and change your minds.

 

[EnI]

Geez, guys. You're like completely lost in the past. Step outside the box, please.

We are entering the new turbo renaissance ... new generation turbo tech is being developed very rapidly.

Perhaps I6 isn't the best solution for this era anymore - for all the state-of-art turbo tech that's coming in the near future.
Perhaps V layout is much better solution to be paired with turbo tech. And the advantages may be much bigger than in the I6 case. Especially with combination with other factors (gearbox, chassis etc).

Also do not forget not only we are entering the new turbo era, there is also a revolution going on in gearbox department - and finally the hybrids are coming to rule the automotive world. At least for a while.

Hybrid ... bunch of new stuff have to be installed into the car. A completely new factor influencing development of chassis, powertrain, drivetrain etc.

TIMES ARE CHANGING! If you like it or not. The sooner you are going to adapt, the better for you. Otherwise you'll be left behind. Just like eg. our grandparents were when digital IT era hit the world. Or perhaps you'll be like my grandpa - still caressing his "ancient" analog gramophone & LPs.

What worked perfectly yesterday it may appear be completely wrong (or insufficient) solution for tomorrow.
Just like turbo-engines proved to be better solution than NA ones.
And same can happen to I6 engines as well ...




Another bone for you: what do you think will differentiate cars in the full-electric drive era?

 

[bmer]

All the complaining I'm hearing now is exactly the same as what I heard back in GCF (several years ago) about high revving normal aspired engines, H-gate manual transmissions, RWD only M-cars, etc. Yet here we are in an era where BMW has introduced forced induction to pretty much all of their cars including M. Introduced a force inducted low revving M car WITH AN AUTOMATIC that happens to be without rear wheel drive (basically all the things BMW fans "loathed") and most are now warming up to it...
I don't really know what else to say except if you're going to continue complaining at least be consistent when it comes out. I would be serenely dissapointed if you guys pull a 180 and change your minds.

So do you include both me and Dunkel in this group who are warming up to X-series (automatic, AWD, FI) M vehicles?

 

[Mr Robert]

Geez, guys. You're like completely lost in the past. Step outside the box, please.

A typical condescending Eni comment.

Why is it not allowed to like what BMW did before and not what they are doing to their brand now?

 

[bum-man]

I'll try to keep names out of it for now.

 

[EnI]

A typical condescending Eni comment.

Why is it not allowed to like what BMW did before and not what they are doing to their brand now?

Because some of you don't have a broader perspective what's happening in the automotive industry right now.

Some of you are lost in the forest - among numerous high trees. Not knowing what's happening around you.

While some others have a privilege to fly in a hot-air balloon over the forest - seeing the whole picture.




Or if you like some people who bitch over the new tech are actually like this:










But stilll ... You'll still be able to cherish & adore BMW past tech & achievements - in BMW Museum, and other BMW Mobile Tradition exhibitions.

 

[Mr Robert]

But stilll ... You'll still be able to cherish & adore BMW past tech & achievements - in BMW Museum, and other BMW Mobile Tradition exhibitions.

Sad for BMW to have been so totally lost when it comes to technology, that they will have to change everything that made the brand special in order to survive.

We all know what is comming around the corner, still, that does not mean that we think that BMW should ditch their DNA.

 

[EnI]

Sad for BMW to have been so totally lost when it comes to technology, that they will have to change everything that made the brand special in order to survive.

We all know what is comming around the corner, still, that does not mean that we think that BMW should ditch their DNA.

IT WEREN'T THE SPECIFIC TECH & SOLUTIONS THAT MADE BMW SPECIAL!!!

How many times I have to say that????

What made BMW special was the engaging drive, smooth & responsive engines & gearboxes, sporty set chassis etc. The whole package. Something what made BMW "a German Alfa Romeo", "sedans that drive like a Porsche" etc.

Of course today's BMWs aren't the same as they were in the 80s & 90s. Nor are the Porsches. Times are changing, so are the trends & customer preferences. And even more: customer base is changing.

And the most importantly: the tech is changing. If it didn't change much from 80s to 00s, that doesn't mean they can't change now.

And what is important: whatever tech is used - it's used to deliver the same characteristics & values as in the past. Of course a bit modified & refined - to fit the current customer base better.

BMW is not ditching their DNA - they are just evolving together with their customer base. But the essence is still the same. Although not as strong as in the past. That's true. But the truth is also that's what customers want right now - a bit more luxury and a bit less sport - although still more than the competitors are offering.

And there will be more ... Wait till encounter BMW "Eco Super Car" Concept soon ...

 

[Mr Robert]

IT WEREN'T THE SPECIFIC TECH & SOLUTIONS THAT MADE BMW SPECIAL!!!

It wasn't? I could have bet on that it was inline sixes, rear wheel drive, manual gearbox and an engaging drive that made BMW special.

What made BMW special was the engaging drive, smooth & responsive engines & gearboxes, sporty set chassis etc. The whole package. Something what made BMW "a German Alfa Romeo", "sedans that drive like a Porsche" etc.

You are right, of course, you always are. But I do not agree when you say that all of the above descriptions can be applied to a pig like the X5M. That is just not true. It is true if you compare to trucks and lorrys but that is not interesting. What is interesting is when you start to compare with a real Porsche again. (Dont come dragging with the worthless Cayenne.)

Of course today's BMWs aren't the same as they were in the 80s & 90s. Nor are the Porsches. Times are changing, so are the trends & customer preferences. And even more: customer base is changing.

Some change more than others.

And there will be more ... Wait till encounter BMW "Eco Super Car" Concept soon ...

I'd love that, I think BMW should go all in with this concept, making it real not just cowarding around. Just make sure it is electric and not powered by no lousy V6 poor mans excuse of an engine.

 

[bmer]

Geez, guys. You're like completely lost in the past. Step outside the box, please.

We are entering the new turbo renaissance ... new generation turbo tech is being developed very rapidly.

The new emission regulations are mostly to blame for this turbo-craze but I hope BMW saves at least one NA I6 for each core model.
Even if this decision is forced by the circumstances, we still have the right to dislike it, right?

I understand if you think the financial side and the overall viability of BMW AG is more important. BMW has always been in forefront of technological progress but it has still retained many of its traditions. Now it's suddenly like the end justifies the means.

I think the BMW brand is this strong because they have respected their heritage much more in the past. Sure, BMW has the responsibility to look after the shareholders' profit but we probably wouldn't be here talking about this whole thing if they had chosen to make cars with the same recipe as Kia, efficiently but without passion.

Perhaps I6 isn't the best solution for this era anymore - for all the state-of-art turbo tech that's coming in the near future.
Perhaps V layout is much better solution to be paired with turbo tech. And the advantages may be much bigger than in the I6 case. Especially with combination with other factors (gearbox, chassis etc).

No matter how you turn it, a V6 would be a compromise for BMW. Not what the brand is known for (at least until lately).

Also do not forget not only we are entering the new turbo era, there is also a revolution going on in gearbox department - and finally the hybrids are coming to rule the automotive world. At least for a while.

Hybrid ... bunch of new stuff have to be installed into the car. A completely new factor influencing development of chassis, powertrain, drivetrain etc.

Bring on the CVTs, the enthusiast's transmission choice!

TIMES ARE CHANGING! If you like it or not. The sooner you are going to adapt, the better for you. Otherwise you'll be left behind. Just like eg. our grandparents were when digital IT era hit the world. Or perhaps you'll be like my grandpa - still caressing his "ancient" analog gramophone & LPs.

What worked perfectly yesterday it may appear be completely wrong (or insufficient) solution for tomorrow.

Then I guess I'm already an old-fashioned, anti-progression person as I prefer analogic watches. BTW S-Class should get a digital clock from Lexus.

Just like turbo-engines proved to be better solution than NA ones.

Yes, for reducing BMW Group's CO2 emissions... I wouldn't say turbo-engines are definitely better than naturally aspirated engines.

And same can happen to I6 engines as well ...

Another bone for you: what do you think will differentiate cars in the full-electric drive era?

Well, let's both hope BMW's Clean Energy project will be succesful in developing cost-effective hydrogen-IC engine. A lot will depend on the global leaders' choices but if they help in building the infrastructure and distribution network, then we should be able to keep enjoying the IC engine but without the emissions in the future.

 

[Mr Robert]

I would love for full electric cars to be the reality very soon. Just look how few 4WD versions there are, hardly any of them are even close to be called SUV:s. A move to full electric would force BMW back to the right path.

Lovely.

 

[EnI]

It wasn't? I could have bet on that it was inline sixes, rear wheel drive, manual gearbox and an engaging drive that made BMW special.

But then they came V8s, SMGs & DSGs, and AWD ... and still deliver typical BMW feeling. Perhaps not in such a pure form as in the original version - and yet same can be said about everything that changed during the time. From art, music, architecture, and tech of course (eg. analog vs digital - picture, sound etc).

But the tech development goes on ... nobody sticks with ancient tech forever. Except my grandpa.

You are right, of course, you always are. But I do not agree when you say that all of the above descriptions can be applied to a pig like the X5M. That is just not true. It is true if you compare to trucks and lorrys but that is not interesting. What is interesting is when you start to compare with a real Porsche again. (Dont come dragging with the worthless Cayenne)

?????

Of course lower & smaller & lighter car will always be more nimble than a larger & higher & heavier car. But people want to drive sporty & fast not only cars like original 911 ... Therefore carmakers are offering various models in sport editions. Including SUVs.

Regarding X5M / X6M ... Yes, it's a pure child of a marketing ... People wanted it, people are getting it. Unfortunately eg. not enough people want Z4 M. Therefeore - why even making it. Just for the sake of it? Just to celebrate good old times?

It's a customer pressure that influence BMW product policies ... Many people are coming to BMW, asking why don't BMW offer eg. X5M or M5 (years ago) - wanting a BMW, but since there weren't one they went to MB or Audi. And probably staying there.

I'm sure many of us would like to see BMW being able to deny customer demands & stick strictly to the principles only. But everyone knows to where would that policy lead in the end. To the bitter end. BMW being a marginal brand under the roof of some bigger carmaker - cattering to a very small group of people only. Offering only "pure" BMW models.

But in such case BMWs would be very expensive, and many of you wouldn't be able to afford them. So ...

What's better: an unrealistic idealistic dream - out of your reach -, or a pragmatic reality that you can afford?

I tell you something: business is all about pragmatic dreams that someday become a reality - which is kind of a compromise already.

And sometimes you have to make bitter compromises in order to survive, or to stay independent.

Times in the auto industry are very serious right now. It's all about survival now. Not a good time for irrational moves.

BMW don't have a rich parents (ala Audi), or some Arab "Prince Charming" with deep wallet ala Daimler. They have to do it alone. And that means they have to be as pragmatic as possible, and sticking with those principles that are really essential for the brand. A perfect compromise. For the better future. While the past will be left for the Museum.