Mercedes S-Class vs. BMW 7-series
- Thread starter Rainer271
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- 7 series bmw mercedes-benz s-class
Nice video, wish I could understand all of the german, but it was nice to see the different technological breakthroughs on each model. The S-class is the pioneer, but the 7-series has always been one of its biggest rivals over a long period of time. My favorite S-class models, W116, W126 and W220 and 7 series is E23 and E32.
In South Africa we had a unique E23 BMW 745i from 1984 which was considered by some motoring journos as better than the one available in other markets worldwide cause it had the 213kw (290PS) version of the legendary M88 3.5ltr 24valve straight six found in the M635 CSI and M5 of the 80's.
At that time it was a bombshell, 0-100km/h in 7.0sec and top speed of 240km/h.
In South Africa we had a unique E23 BMW 745i from 1984 which was considered by some motoring journos as better than the one available in other markets worldwide cause it had the 213kw (290PS) version of the legendary M88 3.5ltr 24valve straight six found in the M635 CSI and M5 of the 80's.
At that time it was a bombshell, 0-100km/h in 7.0sec and top speed of 240km/h.
mini_cooper4
Autotechnik Ace
290HP from a NA 3.5L 6cyl in 1984.
In 2010 Mercedes introduced a 3.5L 6cyl producing 306HP which is still in production - the M276. It's also worth mentioning that the E350 is only 0.7sec. faster from 0-100km/h...
BMW went to forced induction in order to produce 306HP from a 3.0L 6cyl which is still in production today.
So 30 years later and 16HP more...
PS: Bravo BMW!(talking to the real BMW)
In 2010 Mercedes introduced a 3.5L 6cyl producing 306HP which is still in production - the M276. It's also worth mentioning that the E350 is only 0.7sec. faster from 0-100km/h...
BMW went to forced induction in order to produce 306HP from a 3.0L 6cyl which is still in production today.
So 30 years later and 16HP more...
PS: Bravo BMW!(talking to the real BMW)
Giannis
Staff member
Do I see a dog-leg 5sp gearbox there?
KiwiRob
Autotechnik Ace
It's interesting to note that on the cam cover it said BMW not Msport like the same engine used in the M5 and M635i.
Wasn't the only reason you got it because BMW couldn't modify the European 745 turbo to LHD? I have seen one in New Zealand, which is unusal because they were never sold new there. Surprising that the 745i weren't exported to Australia and New Zealand.
Yep that was an amazing engine for its time, so much power from only 3.5ltr and N/A and that is without the latest variable cams adjustment and life and direct injection!!! In racing trim it was apparently much more powerful than that as well!!290HP from a NA 3.5L 6cyl in 1984.
In 2010 Mercedes introduced a 3.5L 6cyl producing 306HP which is still in production - the M276. It's also worth mentioning that the E350 is only 0.7sec. faster from 0-100km/h...
BMW went to forced induction in order to produce 306HP from a 3.0L 6cyl which is still in production today.
So 30 years later and 16HP more...
PS: Bravo BMW!(talking to the real BMW)
Yes it had the close ratio, BMW sport box with dog leg 1st gear. the 5th gear was geared very low, just 33.7km/h/1000rpm!!! So the car was knocking on the rev line at top speed of 241 km/h.
In racing trim apparently this engine could produce 600kW!!!!
mini_cooper4
Autotechnik Ace
dont forget 3.8lt 335hp m5 engine
Indeed, an amazing achievement too! What's even more impressive with the 3.5 is that even tho an M engine it was used in a "regular" BMW in the case of the 745i
KiwiRob
Autotechnik Ace
Which racecar? Would have to have been turbo charged for that kind of power. The M1 Procars had 470hp, the M635 Group A cars had around 400hp.
Yes it was turbocharged the Group 5 racing cars used this and produced up to 900hp!
there was also if i remember correctly couple examples of 400hp e34 m5 which were made to special customersIndeed, an amazing achievement too! What's even more impressive with the 3.5 is that even tho an M engine it was used in a "regular" BMW in the case of the 745i
mini_cooper4
Autotechnik Ace
I don't remember, really. Would be great if we can find some more info on that
Rainer271
Kraftwagen König
I've found this at bmw-drivers.de:
Ursprünglich wurden diese Triebwerke bzw. Autos für den bevorstehenden Einsatz in der damaligen Version der DTM entwickelt. Leider hat BMW das DTM Projekt in letzter Minute eingeschtampft. Die bereits fertig gestellten Motoren bzw. Autos (es sollen insgesamt 12 St. gewesen sein) wurden handverlesen an Mitarbeiter der M-Gmbh ausgegeben und sollten nach Gebrauch wieder zurück wandern. Leider haben sich nicht alle daran gehalten, (fünf Abtrünnige soll es wohl gegeben haben) wodurch die Legende vom "...M5 Sport..." bzw. "...400PS E34...." überhaupt erst entstehen konnte - mit guten Worten und (wahrscheinlich einer Menge vom noch besseren Geld) gelang es einem Mitglied des Königshaus von Dubai dieses Exemplar zu "ergattern"
http://www.bmw-drivers.de/forum-40/...m-und-individual-sondermodelle-t-44290,5.html
The engines with 400 hp were developed for DTM-races. After BMW stopped this project 12 cars with produced 400hp engines were sold on employees. They should give back the cars after use. But 5 of them sold their cars obviously.
One of this rare cars was according to rumors sold to Dubai.
But it seems to be very difficult to get confirmed informations.
Ursprünglich wurden diese Triebwerke bzw. Autos für den bevorstehenden Einsatz in der damaligen Version der DTM entwickelt. Leider hat BMW das DTM Projekt in letzter Minute eingeschtampft. Die bereits fertig gestellten Motoren bzw. Autos (es sollen insgesamt 12 St. gewesen sein) wurden handverlesen an Mitarbeiter der M-Gmbh ausgegeben und sollten nach Gebrauch wieder zurück wandern. Leider haben sich nicht alle daran gehalten, (fünf Abtrünnige soll es wohl gegeben haben) wodurch die Legende vom "...M5 Sport..." bzw. "...400PS E34...." überhaupt erst entstehen konnte - mit guten Worten und (wahrscheinlich einer Menge vom noch besseren Geld) gelang es einem Mitglied des Königshaus von Dubai dieses Exemplar zu "ergattern"
http://www.bmw-drivers.de/forum-40/...m-und-individual-sondermodelle-t-44290,5.html
The engines with 400 hp were developed for DTM-races. After BMW stopped this project 12 cars with produced 400hp engines were sold on employees. They should give back the cars after use. But 5 of them sold their cars obviously.
One of this rare cars was according to rumors sold to Dubai.
But it seems to be very difficult to get confirmed informations.
here is a thread about it
Vehicle information
VIN long WBSHC91050GD64558
Type code HC91
Type M5 (EUR)
Dev. series E34 ()
Line 5
Body type LIM
Steering LL
Door count 4
Engine S38
Cubical capacity 3.80
Power 255
Transmision HECK
Gearbox MECH
Colour SONDERLACKIERUNG (490)
Upholstery LEDER NAPPA/SILBERGRAU HELL (L7SH)
Prod. date 1994-12-05
Order options
No. Description
216 SERVOTRONIC
243 AIRBAG FOR FRONT PASSENGER
245 STEERING COLUMN ADJUSTMENT ELEC
302 ALARM SYSTEM
339 SATIN CHROME
354 GREEN STRIPE WINDSCREEN
401 SLIDING/VENT ROOF, ELECTRIC
416 SUNBLINDS
417 SUNBLINDS FOR REAR SIDE WINDOWS, MECH
423 FLOOR MATS, VELOUR
431 INTERIOR RR VW MIRROR W AUT ANTI-D
459 SEAT ADJUSTM., ELECTR. W. MEMORY
500 HEADLIGHT WASHER SYS/INTENSIVE CLEANING
528 AUTOMATIC AIR RECIRCULATION CONTROL(AUC)
534 AUTOMATIC AIR CONDITIONING
540 CRUISE CONTROL
629 CAR TELEPHONE (GSM) W CARD READER FRONT
710 M LEATHER STEERING WHEEL
806 3RD STOP LIGHT
818 MAIN BATTERY SWITCH
850 ADD FUEL TANK FILLING FOR EXPORT
853 LANGUAGE VERSION ENGLISH
925 SHIPPING PROTECTION PACKAGE
944 NACHTRAEGLICHER UMBAU DURCH ZS
Individual data
0490 Color
Paintwork "sterlingsilber-metallic" (code 244)
Kontrastlackierung "diamantschwarz-metallic"
0944 ZS allocated
Leistungsgesteigerter Motor (400 PS)
Aufbau bei ZS-M-31, Herr Prerauer mit saemtlichen Anbauteilen!
S38-Motor Nr. 60330869
Im Schadens- oder Reparaturfall sind Teile über ZS-M-3 zu
beziehen.
Der Verbau des Motors ist mit serienmaessigem Antriebsstrang
und Fahrwerk wie HC91 zu erfolgen (gem. BA 8167.G).
here is some history taken from another forum:
Was sold as new by AGMC - BMW Dealer Dubai.
First registration Jan. 23, 1995.
The original engine was damaged and now there is a simple S38B38 - the information provided by the owner. He was put up for sale in the Netherlands (standing for a long time).
Ori had engine number 60330869
Historia:
Officially BMW only built one (1) 400 hp car and that is GD64558, specially made for the sheik of Dubai. Adding to this another 2 cars had the same engine mounted when new. These 2 cars where however first built together with the other M5s, with a standard 3,8L engine (340 hp). The cars were registered with 250kW but the engine was then changed "off the record" to the 400 spec. One of these cars is very likely to be GD64559, painted in BMW Individual "Zyclamrot metallic", a burgundy colour. The car was ordered with champagne interior (tan leather). This car is also still alive, however with a rather high mileage of 245.000 km. The car was eventually exported to Turkey and now I haven't heard of it in over a year, but it is probably still alive in Turkey (with a 340 hp engine today). The 3rd and last car I dont know which one it is/was. But according to a member here it might have been greyish (Fjord grey) and driven by a Mr. Rosche, employed at BMW Motorsport. One could suspect this was built close to the others, meaning 11-12/1994. GD64543 and GD64561 are both built in the same time and painted in Fjordgrau. It might be good to investigare these cars further.
About GD64558, the car was owned by a member here and later sold to a workshop in Dubai. The car was advertised in 2005 and test driven by a person from Abu Dhabi, whom I have been in contact with. He tested the car at the residence of the owner. The mileage was about 65.000 km and the owner (a Syrian man) was asking USD 13,000 for it. My contact however thought that price was a little too much and did not buy it (he regrets it now though )
Now talking engine specs. Unfortunately I couldn't get a very detailed spec sheet. The reason for that beeing that there are almost no documents left on this vehicle at Garching. Only a paper showing what was changed. No drawings, engine graphs etc. All engine parts are unavailable from BMW M and have been for a very long time. Most of them were ordered specially for this engine/these vehicles. The piston set and piston rings were delivered by Wahl (a fact), forged aluminium. It is believed that the compression ratio on GD64558 (and also GD64559 and the 3rd car) is 12:1, however I haven't got this fully confirmed in writing yet (dont know if I will ever get). Crankshaft and connecting rods are lighter (probably the same specs as listed by Chris Wagner on the old bmwm5.com site). According to Wahl these might have been (not confirmed by BMW - they dont have any documents on this) made by a firm called Werner Bauer Fahrzeugtechnik, this person is working for a company called Doettling Hagen GmbH, specializing in engine components (Porsche is one of their customers today). Both camshafts were changed, probably to 284 degrees as mentioned earlier by Mr Wagner). It is not known who delivered the camshafts or if BMW has made these themselves
Other than these changes and the obvious remapping of the Motronic program (higher redline - probably 7850 rpm as listed earlier), the inlet ports of the cylinder head where slightly modified and larger inlet valves were mounted (sorry no mm specs on this - we will have to measure on Franks car ). I didnt get an answer if the fuel injectors were changed, but I believe they could have been, because from the graphs I have seen the original 380cc ones are usually maximized at about 390 hp. Maybe someone else has a comment on this.
Intake was completely stock, air filter etc. Exhaust valves were stock, exhaust manifold was stock, catalytic converters were stock. The exhaust system behind the cats was however changed. Special setup from Boysen, custom made for GD64558 with a noise level that wouldn't comply with the EU regulations (= a racing exhaust looking like the original). The exhaust was however changed when the car was in Dubai (too bad!).
One interesting comment on this from the engineer responsible for the special engine, is that the cylinder head was NOT oil cooled on GD64558. This is a fact.
Vehicle information
VIN long WBSHC91050GD64558
Type code HC91
Type M5 (EUR)
Dev. series E34 ()
Line 5
Body type LIM
Steering LL
Door count 4
Engine S38
Cubical capacity 3.80
Power 255
Transmision HECK
Gearbox MECH
Colour SONDERLACKIERUNG (490)
Upholstery LEDER NAPPA/SILBERGRAU HELL (L7SH)
Prod. date 1994-12-05
Order options
No. Description
216 SERVOTRONIC
243 AIRBAG FOR FRONT PASSENGER
245 STEERING COLUMN ADJUSTMENT ELEC
302 ALARM SYSTEM
339 SATIN CHROME
354 GREEN STRIPE WINDSCREEN
401 SLIDING/VENT ROOF, ELECTRIC
416 SUNBLINDS
417 SUNBLINDS FOR REAR SIDE WINDOWS, MECH
423 FLOOR MATS, VELOUR
431 INTERIOR RR VW MIRROR W AUT ANTI-D
459 SEAT ADJUSTM., ELECTR. W. MEMORY
500 HEADLIGHT WASHER SYS/INTENSIVE CLEANING
528 AUTOMATIC AIR RECIRCULATION CONTROL(AUC)
534 AUTOMATIC AIR CONDITIONING
540 CRUISE CONTROL
629 CAR TELEPHONE (GSM) W CARD READER FRONT
710 M LEATHER STEERING WHEEL
806 3RD STOP LIGHT
818 MAIN BATTERY SWITCH
850 ADD FUEL TANK FILLING FOR EXPORT
853 LANGUAGE VERSION ENGLISH
925 SHIPPING PROTECTION PACKAGE
944 NACHTRAEGLICHER UMBAU DURCH ZS
Individual data
0490 Color
Paintwork "sterlingsilber-metallic" (code 244)
Kontrastlackierung "diamantschwarz-metallic"
0944 ZS allocated
Leistungsgesteigerter Motor (400 PS)
Aufbau bei ZS-M-31, Herr Prerauer mit saemtlichen Anbauteilen!
S38-Motor Nr. 60330869
Im Schadens- oder Reparaturfall sind Teile über ZS-M-3 zu
beziehen.
Der Verbau des Motors ist mit serienmaessigem Antriebsstrang
und Fahrwerk wie HC91 zu erfolgen (gem. BA 8167.G).
here is some history taken from another forum:
Was sold as new by AGMC - BMW Dealer Dubai.
First registration Jan. 23, 1995.
The original engine was damaged and now there is a simple S38B38 - the information provided by the owner. He was put up for sale in the Netherlands (standing for a long time).
Ori had engine number 60330869
Historia:
Officially BMW only built one (1) 400 hp car and that is GD64558, specially made for the sheik of Dubai. Adding to this another 2 cars had the same engine mounted when new. These 2 cars where however first built together with the other M5s, with a standard 3,8L engine (340 hp). The cars were registered with 250kW but the engine was then changed "off the record" to the 400 spec. One of these cars is very likely to be GD64559, painted in BMW Individual "Zyclamrot metallic", a burgundy colour. The car was ordered with champagne interior (tan leather). This car is also still alive, however with a rather high mileage of 245.000 km. The car was eventually exported to Turkey and now I haven't heard of it in over a year, but it is probably still alive in Turkey (with a 340 hp engine today). The 3rd and last car I dont know which one it is/was. But according to a member here it might have been greyish (Fjord grey) and driven by a Mr. Rosche, employed at BMW Motorsport. One could suspect this was built close to the others, meaning 11-12/1994. GD64543 and GD64561 are both built in the same time and painted in Fjordgrau. It might be good to investigare these cars further.
About GD64558, the car was owned by a member here and later sold to a workshop in Dubai. The car was advertised in 2005 and test driven by a person from Abu Dhabi, whom I have been in contact with. He tested the car at the residence of the owner. The mileage was about 65.000 km and the owner (a Syrian man) was asking USD 13,000 for it. My contact however thought that price was a little too much and did not buy it (he regrets it now though )
Now talking engine specs. Unfortunately I couldn't get a very detailed spec sheet. The reason for that beeing that there are almost no documents left on this vehicle at Garching. Only a paper showing what was changed. No drawings, engine graphs etc. All engine parts are unavailable from BMW M and have been for a very long time. Most of them were ordered specially for this engine/these vehicles. The piston set and piston rings were delivered by Wahl (a fact), forged aluminium. It is believed that the compression ratio on GD64558 (and also GD64559 and the 3rd car) is 12:1, however I haven't got this fully confirmed in writing yet (dont know if I will ever get). Crankshaft and connecting rods are lighter (probably the same specs as listed by Chris Wagner on the old bmwm5.com site). According to Wahl these might have been (not confirmed by BMW - they dont have any documents on this) made by a firm called Werner Bauer Fahrzeugtechnik, this person is working for a company called Doettling Hagen GmbH, specializing in engine components (Porsche is one of their customers today). Both camshafts were changed, probably to 284 degrees as mentioned earlier by Mr Wagner). It is not known who delivered the camshafts or if BMW has made these themselves
Other than these changes and the obvious remapping of the Motronic program (higher redline - probably 7850 rpm as listed earlier), the inlet ports of the cylinder head where slightly modified and larger inlet valves were mounted (sorry no mm specs on this - we will have to measure on Franks car ). I didnt get an answer if the fuel injectors were changed, but I believe they could have been, because from the graphs I have seen the original 380cc ones are usually maximized at about 390 hp. Maybe someone else has a comment on this.
Intake was completely stock, air filter etc. Exhaust valves were stock, exhaust manifold was stock, catalytic converters were stock. The exhaust system behind the cats was however changed. Special setup from Boysen, custom made for GD64558 with a noise level that wouldn't comply with the EU regulations (= a racing exhaust looking like the original). The exhaust was however changed when the car was in Dubai (too bad!).
One interesting comment on this from the engineer responsible for the special engine, is that the cylinder head was NOT oil cooled on GD64558. This is a fact.
mini_cooper4
Autotechnik Ace
Great thread! Keep it up guys
klier
Premium
Very nice ^
Must be the lack of MB talk
What?!
First the 333i thread and now this? Two sick Bimmers I have never heard of? Maaaaaan
Must be the lack of MB talk
What?!
First the 333i thread and now this? Two sick Bimmers I have never heard of? Maaaaaan
Okay here is something for all the Mercedes fans, wish this car was also available in South Africa but we only had the standard 560 SEL (220kw non cat version).
This car will most likely make mince meat out of the BMW 745i and its successor the E32 V12 750i , the 1987 W126 560 SEL AMG 5.6 4V! 265kw and 510nm from a AMG developed 4valve/cylinder version of the famous 5547cm3 V8.
This car will most likely make mince meat out of the BMW 745i and its successor the E32 V12 750i , the 1987 W126 560 SEL AMG 5.6 4V! 265kw and 510nm from a AMG developed 4valve/cylinder version of the famous 5547cm3 V8.
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