Vs Mercedes-Benz S400 vs. Lexus LS600h Hybrid Battle

[cawimmer430]

Again, both have hybrid technology but in terms of power output and performance they're completely different.

In this case it's like we're comparing an LS460 to a Mercedes S350. The S400 Hybrid has a 20-hp / 160 Nm electronic engine that is clearly designed just to deliver the necessary shove from 0-50 km/h without using gas. The LS600h on the other hand has a 224-hp / 300 Nm electric engine that is also designed for performance.

If Mercedes wants to truly challenge the LS600h then they need to build an "S600 Hybrid" or something along those lines - which would be pointless. I am not a fan of hybrids, but from a purely sensible perspective the Mercedes S400 Hybrid is the more "environmentally friendly" vehicle. Also, and this pleases me, is that the Mercedes is the more intelligently packaged car. You still have some decent payload capacity and you especially have something the LS600h doesn't have - a trunk.



On a side note, some of the user comments on that Autobild article are pro-Lexus. What the f_ck is happening to Germans!?

 

[Wolfgang]

The S400 HYBRID is more like Honda hybrids than Toyotas. The new Honda Insight, just introduced with a similar mild hybrid system as the S400 HYRBID, just became the best selling car in Japan, first time a hybrid achieved this. This type of hybrid system catches many of the benefits, while also being more cost effective.

Jalopnik - Honda Insight Hybrid Best-Selling Car In Japan - 2010 Honda Insight

 

[coolraoul]

^^ Well thing is, the MB didn't convince them much. It seems the hybrid package is better in the Lexus.

Also, the fact it is a full-hybrid vs a mild-hybrid is irrelevant, what counts is the end-result. The end result is that the hybrid systems is flawless and imperceptible on the Lexus, not so on the Merc it seems (from that test at least).

Is hybrid a good solution, that is another question. it however seems here that the Lexus has a better system than the Merc.
They say however, the Lexus is 20.000€ more expensive.

But that alone doesn't justify the Benz to be inferior in terms of refinement and power, given the not so enormous consumption advantage.

The price, and the fact it is unable to move on the electric alone (very funny it is) are also letdowns compared to the Lexus.

Lexus seems to stay at the top of the hybrid game.

However, payload capacity (largely ignored by the clients) and boot capacity are KO-criterias against the Lexus. However, didn't they announce some times ago they'll update their systems to save boot capacity, on GS and LS hybrid models?

 

[Wolfgang]

Porsche Prize for S400 HYBRID developers



The developers of the S400 HYRBID today received the prestigious Porsche Prize from the Technical University (TU) Wien.

Entwickler der Lithium-Ionen-Batterie für Automobile ausgezeichnet - ATZ online


27.05.2009 - Die Daimler AG erhielt heute. 27. Mai 2009, zusammen mit dem Systemlieferanten Continental AG den Professor-Ferdinand-Porsche-Preis. Damit zeichnet die Technische Universität Wien den ersten Großserieneinsatz der Lithium-Ionen Batterie aus. Die Serieneinführung im Mercedes-Benz S400 HYBRID stellt aus Sicht der Jury den Durchbruch für die neuen Energiespeicher im Automobil dar.

"Umweltverträgliche Mobilität nachhaltig zu sichern ist für uns als Automobilhersteller ein zentrales Anliegen", erklärt Prof. Dr. Herbert Kohler, Leiter der Direktion E-Drive und Future Mobility der Daimler AG sowie Umweltbevollmächtigter des Konzerns. "Der S 400 HYBRID mit Lithium-Ionen Batterie ist dabei für uns ein wichtiger Meilenstein. Wir freuen uns über die Anerkennung unseres Engagements und Know-hows durch die Verleihung dieses renommierten Preises der TU Wien."

Dipl.-Ing. Michael Keller, Leiter Entwicklung Batterie Systeme bei Continental: "Durch diese hochdotierte Auszeichnung sehen wir nicht nur unsere Entwicklungsarbeit gewürdigt, dies motiviert uns auch weiter aktiv die Entwicklung und Herstellung moderner Antriebstechnologien voranzutreiben, um nachhaltig den Verbrauch künftiger Fahrzeuge deutlich zu reduzieren und die CO2- Emissionen zu senken."

Mit dem Professor-Ferdinand-Porsche-Preis werden - in Erinnerung an Ferdinand Porsche, den Ingenieur und Ehrendoktor der Technischen Universität Wien - besonders begabte Ingenieure ausgezeichnet. Der mit 50.000 Euro dotierte Preis wurde 1976 von Louise Piëch, der Tochter von Professor FerdinandPorsche, gestiftet und wird seitdem im Zweijahresrhythmus verliehen. Das Preisgeld tragen je zur Hälfte die Porsche Holding, Salzburg, und die Porsche AG, Stuttgart. In diesem Jahr wird er bereits zum 16. Mal durch die TU Wien verliehen.

Die Lithium-Ionen-Batterien (Li-Ion) bieten im Vergleich zu derzeit noch in Hybridfahrzeugen verwendeten Technologien (Nickel-Metallhydrid) eine höhere Speicherdichte. Die Energiedichte liegt um 30 Prozent, die Leistungsdichte um 50 Prozent höher, und das bei kompakten Abmessungen. Die Batterie liefert die Energie, damit ein Elektromotor mit bis zu 19 kW den Verbrennungsmotor unterstützen kann und so etwa beim Beschleunigen oder Anfahren Kraftstoff spart. Aufgeladen wird die Batterie beim Bremsen oder im Schubbetrieb, wenn das Fahrzeug zum Beispiel vor einer roten Ampel ausrollt.

 

[Wolfgang]

Here's the Continental press release, in English:

http://www.conti-online.com/generat...load/powertrain/doc_2009_05_27_daimler_en.pdf

Daimler is still working on their version....

 

[Beemer B773ER]

Humorous how all the anti-Lexus folks on here just can't stomach that a German magazine praised the Lexus much more than they did their beloved S-class.

The S-class is a great car, but come on, grow up and give the Lexus LS credit where it is due. Cawimmer, you really crack me up how you're trying to justify that S-class 'could-have/should-have/would-have' won by focusing on little things. We saw the other comparo where the Phaeton won over the LS because of trivial things like boot space, but here we have an honest comparo where the LS came up trumps.
Just accept the results guys... this was a comparo of 2 hybrids, and the LS won. Don't go on moaning that the S400 is only 'mild' hybrid, while the LS is a purpose-built hybrid.

What is amazing is that they found the LS to be more fun to drive...that really shows that they didn't like the S at all since the Lexus LS is predominantly a luxury cruiser, though that hybrid engine does provide very good torque, so in the end I guess it isn't much of a suprise that the S-class got beat in that department too.

Again, give credit where credit is due.

 

[HighestOfHigh]

Humorous how all the anti-Lexus folks on here just can't stomach that a German magazine praised the Lexus much more than they did their beloved S-class.

See that is the wonderful thing about the automotive cycle. Right now Lexus was favor again in this test sooo who does that directly affect - Mercedes-Benz Loyalist.

So here is the "good-news" there will be a BMW hybrid as well (which incorporates the technology that MB/BMW and GM worked on together). So sooner or later their will be a "Battle" between the Lexus and BMW. Who know who will win. Then again I would pay to see the Lexus win just to see if you would have the same response as you do now.

.....Moving right along

No matter who won this test..like all comparisons this is based solely on someone opinion. Toyota's Hybrid technology has been out along time and they have perfected it. Lexus LS600H serves the purpose of trying to take on the high end Mercedes-Benz yet, providing hyrbid technology.

Like Lexus, BMW will also pair it's hybrid system with a V8. I personally like MB's apporach because it focuses more on gas milage then performance, which is exactly what a Hybrid model should do. This is why Toyota paired the Prius with a 4 cylinder not a 6. Somewhere between the Prius and Lexus LS600h that concept was lost. The system on the LS is top-notch because of Toyota's research. On the other hand the engine it was paired with doesn't follow the ideology of how a hyrbid model should function.

The S400 hyrbid is not meant to be a "performer". MB has the S63 and S65 AMG for that. This is meant for those looking for a high end car provides luxury, but is good on gas and beneficial to the environment. Doesn't really need to be "fun to drive".

I respect Autobild for their work on this comparison, but does it make it the absolute truth. No.

 

[ZicZachZo]

Well to say that the LS is a better hybrid you really have to be smoking crack. Here's why: You'll never make any return on the amount of money you spend on buying the car in relation to the fuel savings. It's sort of like buying a Cadillac Escalade Hybrid - a HUGE joke. But if you want to stroke your newly imposed self-conscious-green-ego the Lexus may be an obvious choice. But let's not kid ourselves here... The Lexus is nothing more than shameful green marketing. To be fair, the Merc is perhaps guilty of this as well...

But the S is the best of both worlds, imo - no compromise in anything. This is the route other manufacturers should go when hybridizing their land yachts.

 

[coolraoul]

Well the fact it has less power does not justify a weird brakepedal feel, neitehr does it justify that the electric motor between engine and gearbox is not perfectly smooth all the time.

On the other hand, Autobild did say it's more fun only based on the hybrid tech. This test was solely on the drivetrain. Not on the suspensions, comfort, finish or anything else usually involved in a comparo.

It was only a hybrid-technology battle, and the Lexus proved to be more fun, more refined whereas the Benz only could score some consumption advantage.

So Autobild gave the win to Lexus, for the superior hybrid maestria the LS possess.

Payload and boot capacity should've been evoked though.

 

[Mr Robert]

Like Lexus, BMW will also pair it's hybrid system with a V8. I personally like MB's apporach because it focuses more on gas milage then performance, which is exactly what a Hybrid model should do. This is why Toyota paired the Prius with a 4 cylinder not a 6.

I think this is quite significant. I feel that pairing a hybrid system with a V8 is just plain and simple waste of technology. What BMW should have done is mating the acclaimed turbocharged I6 engine (latest N55 version) with the hybrid system that BMW and MB developed. That would have made much more sense, just like in the S400.

 

[Merc1]

I would say that this result is expected considering what the LS600 is trying to compete and was designed to compete against....the S600. On that front it gets its arse handed to it in every way except gas mileage. It most certainly does not provide Mercedes V12 performance with V8 fuel econony so it fails miserably there, but here against a lower end S-Class it should win IMO. This is like comparing the S600 to the LS460L.

When a Mercedes and Lexus are evenly matched, Mercedes wins in this class 9 out of 10 times. Here the aren't really playing the same game.


M

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

Well the fact it has less power does not justify a weird brakepedal feel, neitehr does it justify that the electric motor between engine and gearbox is not perfectly smooth all the time.

On the other hand, Autobild did say it's more fun only based on the hybrid tech. This test was solely on the drivetrain. Not on the suspensions, comfort, finish or anything else usually involved in a comparo.

It was only a hybrid-technology battle, and the Lexus proved to be more fun, more refined whereas the Benz only could score some consumption advantage.

So Autobild gave the win to Lexus, for the superior hybrid maestria the LS possess.

Payload and boot capacity should've been evoked though.

Thanks for clearing that up Raoul. An important point that the test was ONLY of the drivetrains, and not the rest of the vehicles.

 

[Beemer B773ER]

Then again I would pay to see the Lexus win just to see if you would have the same response as you do now.

My response would remain as is, if the Lexus won fair and square then I would give it full credit. I wouldn't sit here making excuses that the BMW is supposed to be sportier hence the lower fuel mileage, or that Lexus has had a good few years over BMW/MB to perfect their hybrid technology. They should be given full credit for being AHEAD of the Germans (and the rest of the world for that matter) when it comes to hybrid technology....but most responses here in regards to the Prius or LS600h end up being nothing more than fanboy bashing, discrediting Toyota's R&D into hybrid as purely marketing gimmick, and chanting the praises of BMW/MB/Audi.


.....Moving right along though.

I respect Autobild for their work on this comparison, but does it make it the absolute truth. No.

Agreed. This is purely just one magazine's opinon, not a black & white matter of fact.....YET people still get so defensive of the S-class. Any chance they get at taking a stab at a Toyota/Lexus vehicle they'll do it... even more so when the Toyota/Lexus actually wins the comparison.


----

Well to say that the LS is a better hybrid you really have to be smoking crack. Here's why: You'll never make any return on the amount of money you spend on buying the car in relation to the fuel savings.

But you'll get a return on investment with the Benz? If buying a Prius can't even return the cost of buying it compared to say a Corolla, then how on earth would an S-class do it? I agree that at this stage, no hybrid out there can recoup the extra cost of purchase...but don't make it sound like this flaw is only found within any Toyota/Lexus hybrid. No double standards no matter how much you love MB.

It's sort of like buying a Cadillac Escalade Hybrid - a HUGE joke.
This is the route other manufacturers should go when hybridizing their land yachts.

So if Cadillac Escalade Hybrid is a joke because the car is so heavy the hybrid is pretty much rendered useless, then why would it not be a 'HUGE joke' also to make an uber-luxury land-yatch into a hybrid? You say the S400 hybrid is a no-compromise car... I tend to disagree because any normal S-class would not have such underwhelming performance figures or have a lack-lustre driving experience.

The Lexus is nothing more than shameful green marketing

Not this again....

 

[Merc1]

So if Cadillac Escalade Hybrid is a joke because the car is so heavy the hybrid is pretty much rendered useless, then why would it not be a 'HUGE joke' also to make an uber-luxury land-yatch into a hybrid? You say the S400 hybrid is a no-compromise car... I tend to disagree because any normal S-class would not have such underwhelming performance figures or have a lack-lustre driving experience.

Because in this country where both of these vehicles are sold, the Cadillac barely gives you any advantage over the regular Escalade and the cost is ridiculous. The S400 on the other hand gives you a real result over the S550 which is the entry-level S-Class in the U.S. The S400 hybrid makes far more sense (again in the U.S. where there is no regular S350 or S320 diesel) than an Escalade hybrid that gets 2-3 MPG more over the standard model. The only thing we don't know is how much the S400 will cost.

M

 

[HighestOfHigh]

Response is included in Quote -

My response would remain as is, if the Lexus won fair and square then I would give it full credit. I wouldn't sit here making excuses that the BMW is supposed to be sportier hence the lower fuel mileage, or that Lexus has had a good few years over BMW/MB to perfect their hybrid technology. They should be given full credit for being AHEAD of the Germans (and the rest of the world for that matter) when it comes to hybrid technology....but most responses here in regards to the Prius or LS600h end up being nothing more than fanboy bashing, discrediting Toyota's R&D into hybrid as purely marketing gimmick, and chanting the praises of BMW/MB/Audi.


.....Moving right along though.

HOH: The good news is we will be able to test that theory very soon (Once the 7 Hybrid is released). This is not about "Protecting" Mercedes-Benz S-class, the car is top notch in sales, luxury and considered the best by many. People are just trying to figure out the "Why" of these results. It is not to discredit the Lexus, the LS600H is outstanding.


Agreed. This is purely just one magazine's opinon, not a black & white matter of fact.....YET people still get so defensive of the S-class. Any chance they get at taking a stab at a Toyota/Lexus vehicle they'll do it... even more so when the Toyota/Lexus actually wins the comparison.

HOH: Who is getting defensive? I really didn't see anyone in this thread get all that upset. On the other hand that is their right. I've seen BMW and Audi fans do it all the time. Not like our opinions are going to change the results. Other then that I am not affected at all by the results. Now if they said the LS600H beats the S65AMG....then we might have a World War III.

 

[cawimmer430]

Humorous how all the anti-Lexus folks on here just can't stomach that a German magazine praised the Lexus much more than they did their beloved S-class.

The S-class is a great car, but come on, grow up and give the Lexus LS credit where it is due. Cawimmer, you really crack me up how you're trying to justify that S-class 'could-have/should-have/would-have' won by focusing on little things. We saw the other comparo where the Phaeton won over the LS because of trivial things like boot space, but here we have an honest comparo where the LS came up trumps.
Just accept the results guys... this was a comparo of 2 hybrids, and the LS won. Don't go on moaning that the S400 is only 'mild' hybrid, while the LS is a purpose-built hybrid.

What is amazing is that they found the LS to be more fun to drive...that really shows that they didn't like the S at all since the Lexus LS is predominantly a luxury cruiser, though that hybrid engine does provide very good torque, so in the end I guess it isn't much of a suprise that the S-class got beat in that department too.

Again, give credit where credit is due.

Huh? Where I am dissing the Lexus?

I am mentioning the facts - and these are as follows:

S400 electric engine: 20-hp / 160 Nm

LS600h electric engine: 224-hp / 300 Nm

It shows you two different approaches to the hybrid setup. The Mercedes approach is clearly designed to get better fuel economy with the electric engine getting enough power to move the car in stop-and-go traffic. Acceleration and raw performance are NOT a consideration. The LS600h is performance biased - it has to be given the marketing Lexus has been shoving down our throats (their hybrids are performance oriented or something like that).

I stand to what I mentioned earlier - that from a sensible and efficient perspective the S400 is the clear winner. It's also better thought-out because the Mercedes engineers made sure that it would still have a useful trunk and decent payload capacity. This means that some thought went into making the car "practical" - something I don't see in the LS600h which has a pretty poor payload capacity and very small trunk. A few years ago Autobild claimed that if you took four people onboard an LS600h you would "need a taxi to carry your luggage along" because the payload capacity of the LS600h was just exceeded. I would never get an S400 Hybrid by the way. I would rather drive an S320 CDI which continues to get excellent reviews and ratings.

One more thing. Autobild is an Audi-VW biased publication (everyone in Germany knows this). They're not too kind to Mercedes products in my experience. If this were a comparison between an A8 3.0 TDI and LS600h they'd be singing praises for the old (and almost outdated) A8. Hell, even the Phaeton 3.0 TDI would win over the LS600h based on some ridiculous claim.

Personally I don't give a damn who wins in these comparisons because every magazine has their biases and preferences. If they picked the Lexus as the winner, fine, I am not going to shoot myself over that.

 

[cawimmer430]

Because in this country where both of these vehicles are sold, the Cadillac barely gives you any advantage over the regular Escalade and the cost is ridiculous. The S400 on the other hand gives you a real result over the S550 which is the entry-level S-Class in the U.S. The S400 hybrid makes far more sense (again in the U.S. where there is no regular S350 or S320 diesel) than an Escalade hybrid that gets 2-3 MPG more over the standard model. The only thing we don't know is how much the S400 will cost.

M

Exactly.

The S400 Hybrid actually returns good fuel economy apparently comparable (if not better) than an S350 and of course the S450 and S550. The Lexus LS600h barely gets better fuel economy than the LS460. I think I've only see one review where the LS600h beat its factory claimed fuel economy by a mere 2 miles. Not impressive at all, considering the hype that went into that car.

I'll say it again. I am not crazy about hybrids (not yet) but the S400, despite some of its apparent shortcomings, delivers on the fuel economy promise and can still be used to travel due to a trunk and decent payload capacity.

Try doing this in an LS600h. I've always maintained that the LS600h was a pure marketing gimmick. Remember when it came out? Yep, during the hybrid craze in the US. People were at their most gullible and bought the hype about the LS600h.

Once more reviews come out about the S400 Hybrid I will be able to form a more clearer opinion. Until then, I am no fan of it but at least it has several advantages over the LS600h and was perhaps more "intelligently packaged and designed".

 

[Beemer B773ER]

It shows you two different approaches to the hybrid setup. The Mercedes approach is clearly designed to get better fuel economy with the electric engine getting enough power to move the car in stop-and-go traffic. Acceleration and raw performance are NOT a consideration.

I stand to what I mentioned earlier - that from a sensible and efficient perspective the S400 is the clear winner.

Ah I see.... so when Mercedes takes the 'sensible' approach by implementing hybrid technology with the sole aim of producing better fuel economy it's a 'clear winner' and gets your praise...BUT.. when it comes to the Toyota Prius (which unlike the LS600h) also focuses on maximum fuel efficiency through hybrid technology you find any excuse to put the car down.
The approach that MB have taken with the S400 is similar to that of the Prius, so why the sudden change in sentiment to this max' fuel-mileage approach?

The S400 Hybrid actually returns good fuel economy apparently comparable (if not better) than an S350 and of course the S450 and S550. The Lexus LS600h barely gets better fuel economy than the LS460. I think I've only see one review where the LS600h beat its factory claimed fuel economy by a mere 2 miles.

So you give praise to the S400 Hybrid achieving comparable (if not better) fuel economy than the S350 which are both of similar weight.....but when it comes to the heavier LS600h actually achieving better fuel mileage than its smaller sibling the LS460 (and at the same time more power and better performance!!), you dismiss this commendable achievement.

I've always maintained that the LS600h was a pure marketing gimmick.

What's the gimmick?

The LS600h is a hybrid, it produces better fuel economy than the LS460, let alone the non-hybrid LS600, so just by that point alone the LS600h is no gimmick as it delivers better fuel economy with the use of a hybrid engine. What's the gimmick? What's the lie?...

Also, don't get your two marketing hypes twisted. When it comes to the Toyota Prius, the marketing is ALL about maximum fuel economy and very low CO2 emissions. When it came to the marketing of the LS600h, Toyota/Lexus did not push the message of max' mileage, but rather that the electric component of the hybrid engine could produce very good performance (as this test has shown with the LS600h winning) yet at the same time still producing very good fuel economy (as again shown with the LS600h achieving better figures than the LS460). The message I heard all along with the LS600h was V12 performance, yet very good mileage.... and being as unbiased as I can be, I believe Lexus achieved that. No gimmick, no lies...no smokes and mirrors or marketing make-believe.

Seriously, some much crap about marketing hype and gimmicks about Toyota/Lexus hybrids. Apart from maybe Honda, name one other large-scale automaker that has a better hybrid system on the market. It's a shame that many can't give Toyota/Lexus the credit they deserve. I don't expect many here to actually like or be a fan of Toyota/Lexus, but their hybrid achievements thus far deserve some praise and respect rather than being dismissed as pure marketing gimmick.

 

[Mr Robert]

I have also always thaugt of the LS600 as a marketing gimmik, a platform to showcase the technology.

The Prius on the other hand is more sensible, it has decent fuel economy, not like a diesel but still. The big objection against the Prius is that it is the most boring and dull car ever made. It feels like it was designed for people who hate cars.

 

[Merc1]

The only V12 performance that the LS600 matches is the V12s in the current A8L W12 and the outgoing 760Li, it comes no where near matching the performance of the V12 in the S600, which is the main reason why a Lexus LS even exists.

What some here can't seem to get is that the LS600 doesn't outperform the LS460 in fuel economy in some tests and its barely that much faster.

The V12 performance with V8 economy claim is bs because the V12 thats runs the show (Mercedes' V12) stomps the Lexus in performance time and time again, and the new 760Li will do the same.


M