Yeah I know, I already stated that in my previous post. What you seem to argue is that the LS600h is a 'gimmick' because it doesn't return excellent fuel economy (in your opinion). Now you're stating that you know that the LS600h was tailored to be a performance hybrid. So you acknowledge that the LS600h is performance orientated, yet you still talk it down due because it doesn't return amazing fuel economy numbers. I'm sure Lexus could well create a hybrid LS that is solely focused on maximum fuel efficiency (they've already proven they can do this with the Toyota Prius)...but the LS600h utilises the benefits of a petrol-electric hybrid engine to gain V12-like performance, but at the same time achieving fuel mileage that is very comparable to cars which have much less power.
Where is the V12-like performance of the LS600h? I thought Lexus had Mercedes in their sights. The S600 destroys the LS600h in performance. In fact the S600 destroys the A8 W12 and BMW 760iL in performance too. I believe the A8 W12 is also quicker than the LS600h. The only V12 sedan the LS600h probably comes close to trouncing is the 760iL. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
The only real performance advantage the LS600h will have is in initial acceleration to perhaps 50 km/h where the electric motor can deliver all 300 Nm of torque instantaneously.
You stated that the LS600h achieves mileage figures similar to the LS460...and you talk down the LS600h for this outcome. How about comparing the fuel economy figures of the S600 against the S550. What are the numbers there?
How about you tell me first why the LS600h is only 0.1 seconds faster to 60 mph than an LS460, yet costs significantly more while delivering
marginally (do you know what that word means?) better fuel economy. What is the difference between these two cars that warrants such a large price discrepancy?
You want to talk about the S550 and S600? Fine. The S600 trounces the S550 in performance (something the LS600h doesn't do against the LS460). The S550 destroys the S600 in gas mileage (the LS460 and LS600h are sort of tied here). According to Autobild the S500 needs 11.9 L / 100 km while the S600 requires 14.3 L / 100 km. Quite a difference. And the S600 is a prestige car bought by those seeking status and prestige above a regular S-Class.
So tell me again what makes the LS600h so special when it doesn't deliver the V12 performance Lexus claimed it can deliver. It's barely quicker and hardly more fuel efficient than its LS460 stablemate. Tell me again why I should pay top Dollar for an LS600h that underdelivers on its promises?
Ah I see, so it's not the hybrid tech' itself, but rather the poor payload allowance of the car. I'm not defending the poor payload/trunkspace of the LS600h, that's definitely a calculated trade-off that Lexus decided upon when engineering the car. I think Lexus would be content with giving up the market who constantly want to use their LS600h for long-distance cruising point of view. I guess they figured, if the customer can afford to buy an LS600h, then they probably can also afford to buy a plane ticket. Either way, I completely acknowledge that one of the shortcomings of the LS600h is its payload issues. Maybe their marketing research showed them that customers of such vehicles don't load the trunk space to max capacity.. I don't know.... or maybe they had to choose between two options... the first options was to create a dedicated V12 engine so as to offer a real competitor to the V12 luxury yatchs from the Germans. This would not only be very costly, but also fly in the face of what Toyota/Lexus heavily invested in in-terms of hybrid technology. The second option was to leverage the same engine that is used in the LS460, but to give the engine an electric component so as to offer V12-like engine output (as well as class-leading City mileage - which is where hybrids really shine). This second option would firstly save cost because they could use the same base engine as the LS460, as well as give Lexus center-stage to showcase hybrid technology on their flagship model. Ofcourse the downside with the second option is that trunk-space was sacrificed, and the focus on performance hybrid meant that spectacular fuel economy was also sacrificed.
Well that's my view on the LS600h.
I agree that maybe Lexus knows their customers and what they want but the fact is that the LS600h was designed first and foremost for the US market like all Lexus are. Americans who buy luxury strike me as wanting to show off what they can buy so they probably won't be taking their LS600h on long trips.
Still...
It's a major drawback for other markets like Europe where people or
families travel in luxury cars including in the upper premium sedan class made up by the S-Class, A8, 7er, LS and XJ. Even the normal LS460 has a pretty poor payload capacity compared to its German rivals. Little things like this can mean the death of a product in Europe.
Have you ever thought why this might be the case?
As much as you dislike it, the fact of the matter is that Lexus don't give top priority to the European market when they develop their vehicles. Top priority goes to the US market. When it comes to trunk space, it ain't that important in USA, and if trunk space is really THAT important to you, then they have a good line-up of 4WDs to meet this need. When you have a look at the numbers relating to cabin space for Lexus sedans, they trump the Europeans for front legroom (why? because it's usually adults who sit in the front seat), while rear legroom is less than the Europeans (why? because it comes to families, usually the kids sit in the back, though even for adults rear legroom is nowhere drastically small to call it 'piss poor'). So I think the problem isn't that Toyota/Lexus don't put enough thought and planning into their vehicles, but rather that you're unable to realise that Lexus vehicles are tailored to the US market, not the European market. Of course because Europe isn't top priority when it comes to developing vehicles Lexus doesn't do so well in terms of sales over there (not to mention the condescending mindset that Europeans have of anything from Japan or America), but I think #1 sales in USA is more important than the European market.
I am completely aware that Lexus concentrates on the US.
But how do you explain the press releases from Lexus that talk about wanting to make inroads in Europe? They have not adapted their cars to suit the European market. Lexus thought they could make inroads by offering a diesel such as the IS220d. What has happened? Nothing. The IS220d is given a coarse Toyota Avensis diesel engine (no particulate filter available on it for ages by the way) and Lexus believes it will conquer Europe with it. Lame. The IS220d was a poorly placed product. It didn't even have an automatic transmission option available and some genius at Lexus decided to remove 2/3 of the safety features of the IS220d. So in Europe one can buy an IS250 that comes with all safety features Lexus placed in it - and at the same time you can buy an IS220d that has 2/3rds of these safety features removed. I really want to know what they are thinking and how they think they can make inroads into Europe with such silly decisions.
Oh, don't let Lexus interior volume space ratings fool you. The GS for example has the biggest interior volume space in its class. It looks good on paper. The reality is that Lexus has done a poor job in utilizing this. The GS is cramped upfront and in the rear. The same applies to the IS. Both of these cars have an unusually wide transmission tunnel upfront which takes away a lot of leg space for both driver and front passenger. I found the same is true for the transmission tunnel LS when I sat in one but at least you still have space.
There can be two opposing benefits of utilising a petrol+battery hybrid engine. The first we all know: Maximum fuel efficiency, especially in City driving (prime example: Toyota Prius). The second benefit of using a petrol+battery style hybrid engine is that of very quick power delivery due to the torque characteristics of the battery component of the engine. An example of this is of course the performance orientated engine of the LS600h.
You ask for the point of this car, I'll list them for you:
- Having a V8 engine which is comparable to a V12 in terms of output and response
- Having V12-like performance but still achieving better fuel economy than the competitions V8's (and better fuel economy than the smaller, lighter, and less powerful LS460)
- Finding a solution for the long-standing problem of 'more power means higher fuel consumption'
- Low CO2 emissions for a car which offers V12-like performance (this probably isn't of much importance to many buyers, but it's still a FACTUAL selling point)
- VERY impressive fuel economy when it comes to City driving (quick comparison: LS600h city consumption: 20mpg. S600 city consumption: 11mpg). I wonder where many of the CEOs and Upper Management folks drive this car...
- Almost no engine noise when operating under battery-only driving (usually during city driving). You'd think an almost silent car would be a very impressive selling point for those who are in the market for an uber-luxury road-yatch. No point worrying about no engine noise when doing highway driving because tyre noise and airflow noise make that advantage mute.
- In terms of marketing, the hybrid engine provides a good point of differentiation from the competition who all tend to have the same approach for the engines of their respective flagship models.
- The LS600h came out at a time when the cost of fuel was getting higher and higher and also the whole 'green/eco-friendly' movement in full-swing, so the concept of a hybrid made sense (even if it didn't deliver max' fuel efficiency like the Prius)
- And as stated before, there's no better stage to showcase (and publicise) Toyota's/Lexus' committment to hybrid technology than on their flagship model.
Again, where is this V12 performance of the LS600h? That's a marketing claim but I've never seen the LS600h beat out the S600 or A8 W12 in driving performance aside from gas mileage.
Have you ever ridden in an S600? I have - in a
W220 S600 even in London and that car is extremely silent despite having no electric engine. The driver hammered the car three times and aside from the brutal acceleration the engine noise never really rose to "annoying levels" - but sounded sporty and pleasant actually.
I have personally driven the C215 CL600 Biturbo twice and again - a very quiet car. Quiet enough for me and most people.
I understand what you're complaining about.... the S400 hybrid achieves noticeable increase in fuel economy over other S-class models (though a tad unfair since the S400 is a 6-cylinder), so you think the LS600h is pointless compared to even the LS460 since the hybrid tech' doesn't result in much of an increase in fuel consumption. Thing is, the LS600h and the LS460 are not the exact same car just with different engines, the LS600h is bigger, it's heavier..YET the hybrid tech means the LS600h is faster, has better fuel economy, quieter in city driving, and lower CO2 emissions. The LS600h was never meant to be the Prius of the uber-luxury world, it just utilised the hybrid tech to get a noticeable increase in engine output, without sacrificing fuel consumption (though sacrificing trunk space as discussed earlier).
Again, the LS600h is 0.1 seconds faster than the LS460 according to most reviews. In some reviews it is even slower. I have not seen a review where they've managed to attain the Lexus performance and fuel economy claims. Not a single one.
I realize that the LS460 and LS600h are two different things. I feel the more honest car is the LS460. It costs less, performs about the same as the LS600h in acceleration and even fuel economy. And second, who cares about performance in these cars? The people who buy these cars are not 20 year old kids on a car forum who care only about 0-60. The people who buy these cars care about the creature comforts, comfort, luxury, status etc. and every single car in this class offers these things. If you're one of those luxury buyers who does value performance, then there's always the S8, S63 AMG and S65 AMG for you or maybe an Alpina 7er. The LS600h might be quick in its own right, but that "famous V12 performance" it is supposed to deliver has never really materialized. It's always 0.1 seconds faster than the LS460 in most reviews. Hardly V12 performance.
The Mercedes S400 Hybrid is a reaction from Mercedes to the LS600h but with an emphasis on fuel economy and not performance. Another emphasis is on practicality because that's important in Europe. A high-end business man might use his S-Class during the week for representative jobs and on the weekend he and his family use the S-Class for a weekend in Italy or something. European cars are designed with this traveling practicality in mind. It's important to us.
What's the problem here? Why are you dismissing the LS600h?
The LS600h has better fuel consumption than the S600, 760iL and the A8 W12.. why? because of that hybrid engine (the same engine which you constantly label as 'pointless').
Here's my problem:
I don't see the LS600h as a competitor to the S600 etc.
Like I said before, Lexus has done a good job of comparing the LS600h to gas guzzlers like the S600, A8 W12 etc. because it makes their LS600h look good. No offense, but Americans are so gullible when it comes to marketing.
The LS600h also debuted during the hybrid craze in the US. It was stylish and in and a fad to own one (or a hybrid). Factors like these affected the success of the LS600h. If you look on Club Lexus, you'll see several owners who like their LS600h, but complain that the gas mileage it attains is far below what Lexus claims it gets - even if driven normally.
Yeah sure many who own one of these V12 monsters doesn't really care about fuel economy, but come to USA and you'll see a LOT of old folks own hybrid Prius, Civic and Camry... so it's the older market who like the idea of a hybrid vehicle..and it's no coincidence that mostly 50+ years of age people are the target market for the LS600h. BUT, at the same time, the LS600h also appeals to those who want to buy an uber-luxury vehicle which has excellent power and acceleration performance. So it appeals to those who like hybrids, as well as appealing to those who like a powerful top-end luxury car. I think that's pretty clever since no single model of the S-class, 7er or A8 can do both of those things. Well thought-out plan if you ask me.
The problem in America is that you have very little fuel-efficient luxury cars available. People there seem to bitch about gas prices and fuel economy but when there is talk about bringing something efficient over from Europe what gets criticized is the "slow acceleration"
t-crazy2
bla bla bla. Seriously, what the hell?
Most people going for a Mercedes S550 probably would jump for joy if the S350 or an S320 CDI were available in the US. They simply want the creature comforts, status, luxury and maybe the design but don't really care much for what's under the hood, as long as it works and a bonus would be if it were fuel-efficient too. My belief in this was further reinforced when I read the technology section of the
International Herald Tribune where several Mercedes owners (or other luxury car owners including Lexus) loved the idea of a 4-cylinder diesel E-Class coming over to the US. IHT is a good newspaper and I believe its readers are also of the educated and open-minded type.
One more thing. The LS600h has its greatest gas mileage strength in urban environments. But what about outside urban environments? Here in Europe, where mixed driving also results in drives on roads like this:
The LS600h will perform poorly because of its overpowered gasoline engine and heavy weight. Fact. The majority of people seem to think that the automatic "hybrid" labeling will mean that this car gets good fuel economy no matter what.
Again, the LS600h isn't tailored to the high-speed European market. Apart from Europe, most other modernised countries have a ~80mph/120kmh speed limit, so again it was a calculated move to maximise fuel economy for those markets which have the greatest potential for sales success (namely the US market) and sacrifice fuel economy when it comes to driving at such high speeds.
At cruising speeds the majority of cars get good fuel economy - even an S600.
The reason why vehicles like the RX400h and GS450h aren't spectacular hybrids in terms of fuel economy is because there were never built as a fully-dedicated hybrid. For example, the Prius was developed from the ground-up as an all-out hybrid vehicle with the sole aim of achieving maximum fuel efficiency. The RX and GS are now fairly old vehicles at the end of their life-cycles, so it'd be very difficult (and costly) to suddenly give both of these cars a new dedicated hyrbid engine with amazing fuel efficiency. In essence, both of these vehicles received a 'retro-fit' hybrid system since both cars are old now. With vehicles that have been released recently, the engineers have had to develop the car and especially the engine with the knowledge that a hybrid option will most likely be offered down the track, so the basis for an efficient hybrid engine are already there. Also, both the RX and GS were created in a time when fuel prices and the gree/eco movement weren't of much concern, so even the most basic of elements within their engines weren't designed with fuel efficiency as a key criterion. Now modern day engines which aren't even hybrids have fuel efficiency as a key focus, so that again works against the RX400h and GS450h in terms of achieving great fuel efficiency.
Yeah sure it's also marketing, with Toyota/Lexus making the most of the favourable reputation that the Prius has created, but I mean come on, don't refer to this as marketing gimmick or something stupid like that.. it's just plain and simple marketing. I agree that some of the advertisements seem to 'stretch the truth' about how much benefit the hybrids within the Rx and GS models will achieve, but don't act like only Toyota/Lexus exaggerate the truth or use images that make you think more than what the truth really is. The reason why I get so worked-up over negative reactions like yours about Toyota/Lexus is because many act like only Toyota/Lexus is guilty of using marketing to portray a favourable image about a car..... everyone does it, but many just seem to love criticising non-European cars. We see this with the reactions to the Nissan GTR, with the Cadillac CTS-V, and even for the Corvette Z06.
What's the point of making a hybrid SUV in the first place with current technology standards? The extra weight of the hybrid components in an already heavy chassis will mean poor gas mileage once the overpowered (in US markets) gasoline engine takes over. Seriously, when it comes to SUVs I believe that a diesel engine is better suited. Emissions aren't an issue in my opinion because all modern cars, diesel or gasoline, perform relatively well here and are improving too. Mercedes sells diesel SUVs in the US and they've been warmly received. There is a demand for them. BMW is following suit and so is Audi. And Lexus? Still working on that hybrid issue. Their LX570 could use an efficient diesel too as could the RX.
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the Lexus GS450h also marketed as a performance hybrid? Such a poor handling car? Wow. You should seriously check out Club Lexus. Except for some diehard Lexus fanboys, the more open-minded and realistic members on that forum despise the GS and openly admit that it is close to the "worst car in its class". A recent review said the GS isn't even that comfortable and the handling is wobbly. Yes, I realize the GS is old and outdated now but it was never one of the stronger Lexus products, which was always the LS.
I keep re-hasing the same point: Even if you don't like the car, or you don't think it's the better than the car you like, that shouldn't stop you from understanding and respecting what that car has to offer. No car is perfect, each has its positive and negatives...but most here just seem to focus on the negatives in relation to Toyota/Lexus and turn a blind-eye to the positive, or even worse, come up with some petty excuse to downplay the positives... most commonly seen with the comment of 'marketing gimmick'.
It's no secret - I don't like Lexus. Never have and I think you know why. In Europe a luxury brand is defined by its history, heritage, tradition,
achievements, motorsport participation and success etc. Lexus has none of those things. I cannot accept them as a legitimate luxury brand. Lexus was created to make money from the start - not out of passion as were many European brands by visionaries. I think you can agree with me on that, right?
Lexus is a good brand but utterly dull and boring. There is no history and passion in that brand. Everything is so clinically dull and just dull, dull and even more dull about it.
But I realize their presence in the market makes my favorite brand work harder and come out with more competitive products which means I, the consumer, benefit in the end.
