Joy Defines the Future. BMW Vision EfficientDynamics Concept.

[Betty Swollocks]

How can you say that this powertrain will be dull?

Because it's a 1.5 diesel combined with two electric motors. What more is there to discuss?

Character can still be "engineered" into a vehicle's powertrain.

That sounds like it will be artificial feeling.

Diesel engines, combined with electric motors will give you ample torque to generate strong acceleration.

It's not about how fast you go but how you get there. Exactly why a Nissan GTR does not interest me.

And if you want the the noise, then consider the acoustic work to be done on the Fisker Karma- that car will be engineered to resonate a sound that's similar to a F1 car.

If that is what floats your boat then fair enough. I however would take no joy from something so artificial.

As for your notion that an environmentally friendly drivetrain combined with a sporty car is "pointless"? That's just utter rubbish.

No it's not. For a company like BMW, this kind of halo car would make up a VERY small proportion of sales. These kind of drive train solutions are very much needed for run of the mill cars such as the 3 series, but what real difference is it going to make if the 1% of cars sold are not as environmentally friendly? None at all.

I can't imagine both Porsche and Ferrari to be making dull powertrains.

Neither can I. When more details are known then we can comment. As it stands we're talking about a 1.5 diesel with electric motors, so vague proclomations by Porsche and Ferrari are irrelevant at the moment.

You seem to be talking about hypothetical cars of the future whereas I am talking about cars which are existing today, and a sports car with a 1.5 diesel engine and two electric motors just does not make any sense.

 

[Ultimate Car Guy]

You just don't get it do you?

1. 1.5 diesel combined with two electric motors will be dull:

Utter nonsense. I haven't driven this engine, you haven't driven this engine, no journalist or anyone in the public has ever driven this engine. Development hasn't even been completed. How can we judge a finished product based on it's concept and not on it's execution?

It's like judging a Porsche 911 and saying it's a bad car based on it's rear-biased weight configuration without actually driving it.

2. Halo car would make up a VERY small proportion of sales...but what real difference is it going to make if the 1% of cars sold are not as environmentally friendly? None at all:

Again, utter nonsene. Halo cars, for a lot of manufacturers, represent the company's engineering strength and it's future direction.

For a company such as BMW, it is no secret that the company wants to focus on the concept of Efficient Dynamics. It is a mantra that they want to instill in their products from the flagship to the entry-level product.

A halo car, such as an Audi R8 and MB SLS, should be the epitome of the company's future product direction. It is technology and the design set by the halo model that will eventually be filtered through to it's mainstream models. For BMW, the 7er has always held this role, but if a new supercar is to be launched above the 7er, then this new vehicle must showcase the epitome of the efficient dynamics mantra.

The technology that we are seeing is perfect for a halo vehicle and a sports car. It is quick (acceleration times are claimed to match an M3), it goes without saying that the vehicle will be fuel efficient, and given the light weight construction (the vehicle is constructed from aluminium and the new layering concept reduces weight) it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that the vehicle will be dynamic.

As for the car's character? will it be dull? well i work on the commercial/financial/strategic aspects of the business, so i can't speak for the R&D team. But i'm not going to claim that this solution will be "dull" based on a concept that has yet to be completed, let alone something that i've tried.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

You just don't get it do you?

There is nothing "to get". It's my opinion, and opinions are correct by definition.

1. 1.5 diesel combined with two electric motors will be dull:

Utter nonsense. I haven't driven this engine, you haven't driven this engine, no journalist or anyone in the public has ever driven this engine. Development hasn't even been completed. How can we judge a finished product based on it's concept and not on it's execution?

So are you saying it will sound like a high revving petrol V8? I don't have to drive a diesel to know what it's going to sound like. The best we can hope for is that it is very quiet. You cannot hide behind "you haven't driven it yet".

It's like judging a Porsche 911 and saying it's a bad car based on it's rear-biased weight configuration without actually driving it.

No, it's not like that at all. It's possible to make a rear-biased weight configured car drive very well, as Porsche have proven. I don't think it's possible to make a 1.5 litre diesel with two electric motors as satisfying as redlining a 4.0 litre V8.

Again, utter nonsene. Halo cars, for a lot of manufacturers, represent the company's engineering strength and it's future direction.

No, concept cars do that. Which is what has happened here with the VED. The technology being used in a more logical way, such as a 3 series or 5 series is very good.

So you're saying that BMW should just stick every innovation they come up with on their halo model even though it might not be an appropriate platform for it?

For a company such as BMW, it is no secret that the company wants to focus on the concept of Efficient Dynamics. It is a mantra that they want to instill in their products from the flagship to the entry-level product.

Er, yes Batman. Thanks for that. That is the whole point of my post. I'm saying that it's wrong and as even though an efficient dynamics M car or whatever is very commendable, and if it doesn't take anything away from the thrill of driving (the engine is as much a part of this as the handling), then I'm all for it. However, if that solution involves a 1.5 litre diesel engine and two electric motors then count me out, as BMW are missing the point entirely.

The technology that we are seeing is perfect for a halo vehicle and a sports car. It is quick (acceleration times are claimed to match an M3), it goes without saying that the vehicle will be fuel efficient, and given the light weight construction (the vehicle is constructed from aluminium and the new layering concept reduces weight) it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that the vehicle will be dynamic.

And what about enjoyment the noise of the engine provides? You've missed that.

If the engine makes no difference then why do BMW sell the 335i when they have the 335d, for example?

As for the car's character? will it be dull? well i work on the commercial/financial/strategic aspects of the business, so i can't speak for the R&D team. But i'm not going to claim that this solution will be "dull" based on a concept that has yet to be completed, let alone something that i've tried.

You seem to be focusing on the handling as being the sole source of enjoyment when driving a car. You keep conveniently failing to answer my criticism of the diesel powerplant being inappropriate for a performance car actually.

 

[SCOTT27]

There are plans that are moving forward with the next generation 1er platform to offer a small sports car - extremely lightweight and with a sustainable drivetrain below the next M3.

What BMW would like to do is turn conventional sports car thinking on it's head by basing this car with the 1er and powered by a unique 3 cylinder turbo that would be developed by the M division.

Why should a car like this have to feature a V8? If a Three Cylinder can be developed and joined with two electic motors to deliver in excess of over 350PS then BMW will set out to do this and seperate themselves as the leader in redeveloping the sports car concept for the future.

The Vision Efficient Dynamics Concept is not a vision of one car , it's a vision of how BMW will be in the future but you will see the ideas and convention in future BMW's. It's a learning curve we tackled early and we continue to reap the awards for "Efficient Dynamics". That is today tomorrow will bring more ideas in improving efficiency , yet keeping the nature of a BMW.

 

[Ultimate Car Guy]

There is nothing "to get". It's my opinion, and opinions are correct by definition.



So are you saying it will sound like a high revving petrol V8? I don't have to drive a diesel to know what it's going to sound like. The best we can hope for is that it is very quiet. You cannot hide behind "you haven't driven it yet".



No, it's not like that at all. It's possible to make a rear-biased weight configured car drive very well, as Porsche have proven. I don't think it's possible to make a 1.5 litre diesel with two electric motors as satisfying as redlining a 4.0 litre V8.



No, concept cars do that. Which is what has happened here with the VED. The technology being used in a more logical way, such as a 3 series or 5 series is very good.

So you're saying that BMW should just stick every innovation they come up with on their halo model even though it might not be an appropriate platform for it?



Er, yes Batman. Thanks for that. That is the whole point of my post. I'm saying that it's wrong and as even though an efficient dynamics M car or whatever is very commendable, and if it doesn't take anything away from the thrill of driving (the engine is as much a part of this as the handling), then I'm all for it. However, if that solution involves a 1.5 litre diesel engine and two electric motors then count me out, as BMW are missing the point entirely.



And what about enjoyment the noise of the engine provides? You've missed that.

If the engine makes no difference then why do BMW sell the 335i when they have the 335d, for example?



You seem to be focusing on the handling as being the sole source of enjoyment when driving a car. You keep conveniently failing to answer my criticism of the diesel powerplant being inappropriate for a performance car actually.

Again, not only are you failing to see the point and confusing yourself- you're too stuborn to see the flaws in your argument.

1. Firstly, i am not saying that the engine will sound like a high-reving V8. I have made no assertion whatsover about the sound of this hybrid engine. I have neither driven nor have been involved in the development of this engine to form an opinion on its performance.

What i'm saying, is that making a judgement on the performance on this engine, by saying that it's dull, is foolish given my proximity and my relation to this powertrain's development. I am not an engineer at BMW, and i can reasonably extrapolate, that neither are you. None of us know what is possible with diesel/electric technology so we can't conclude on what will eventuate from this technology.

If there's anything i could add, many years ago i would never have believed that a diesel engine could ever be installed in a "sporty" car and can still call the car sporty. Having read the reviews on cars such as the 123d and 635d, i've realised how far diesel technology has progressed, and with the supplement of 2 electric motors, it would be perfectly logical to assume that it's performance will advance a step further.

I have recently driven a X6 Xdrive35d (as a loan car for when my 320i was being serviced) and this is a pretty impressive engine.

As for your high-reving V8 engine concept. A 3-cylinder hybrid does not have to match a high-reving V8 engine to be considered sporty. Performance engines come in all shapes and sizes and are matched to various exhaust systems to generate that "sound". The sound that you're alluding to can be manipulated by the car's exhaust or if necessary, can be artificially recreated like the Fisker Karma. I would imagine that when Porsche launches it's all electric 911 in a few years, they will provide a solution that produces that "sound".

I'm not going to focus on the vehicle itself- even though in your earlier posts you see to have focused on handling as well- and look at the facts of this powertrain:

1. This engine is extremely efficient.
2. It generates acceleration so for a vehicle to match the M3.
3. Given the diesel and electric motors, it would be reasonable to assume that this powertrain will generate a lot of torque.
4. Given the advances in diesel technology and what's possible with acoustic technology, then the "sound" you seem to be impressed with can still be achieved.

Given the facts above, the VED powertrain can still be considered sporty and when attached to a lightweight and compact vehicle, can give life to something that can a carmaker can proudly proclaim to be a sporty car.

 

[aleks_16]

There are plans that are moving forward with the next generation 1er platform to offer a small sports car - extremely lightweight and with a sustainable drivetrain below the next M3.

What BMW would like to do is turn conventional sports car thinking on it's head by basing this car with the 1er and powered by a unique 3 cylinder turbo that would be developed by the M division.

Why should a car like this have to feature a V8? If a Three Cylinder can be developed and joined with two electic motors to deliver in excess of over 350PS then BMW will set out to do this and seperate themselves as the leader in redeveloping the sports car concept for the future.

The Vision Efficient Dynamics Concept is not a vision of one car , it's a vision of how BMW will be in the future but you will see the ideas and convention in future BMW's. It's a learning curve we tackled early and we continue to reap the awards for "Efficient Dynamics". That is today tomorrow will bring more ideas in improving efficiency , yet keeping the nature of a BMW.

Yes the engine have 350 hp BUt every time, whit a V8 you have every time enough power.When you have a sportscar you will take the when you want and not wait untill th bateri have load enough power.

 

[rollo]

Interesting debate here and I have to agree with UCG on every point he has made.

How can we judge the sportiness or character of a car before we drive it? Although CM can drive me crazy, efficient dynamics is spot on in my view regarding BMW's future planning. It might end up sounding different to us, and it may be a little disconcerning at first, but if it performs and drives like a bimmer should, and it's more environmentally friendly, sounds like a win-win to me.

Also, with the passing of time and through innovation, these new powertrains will out-perform the legacy ones we hold so dear in ways we can't imagine. If some can't warm up to the new "tones" they will generate, that's understandable but I think the vast majority will embrace this new frontier.

 

[rollo]

Yes the engine have 350 hp BUt every time, whit a V8 you have every time enough power.When you have a sportscar you will take the when you want and not wait untill th bateri have load enough power.

Actually, the new drivetrains will have an advantage in terms of response over legacy platforms.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Why should a car like this have to feature a V8?

It doesn't. I was using a V8 as an example. But a diesel certainly doesn't cut it.

If a Three Cylinder can be developed and joined with two electic motors to deliver in excess of over 350PS then BMW will set out to do this and seperate themselves as the leader in redeveloping the sports car concept for the future.

BMW can develop all they want. Whether people buy it is another question.

The Vision Efficient Dynamics Concept is not a vision of one car , it's a vision of how BMW will be in the future but you will see the ideas and convention in future BMW's. It's a learning curve we tackled early and we continue to reap the awards for "Efficient Dynamics". That is today tomorrow will bring more ideas in improving efficiency , yet keeping the nature of a BMW.

I agree, and something which seems to have been lost on people. All this technology is great.....in the right car. I am saying that if the VED was launched as it is now, with a few bodywork tweaks for mass production, then who would buy it, bearing in mind somebody with that amount of money to spend doesn't care how much fuel costs? They'll just go to a manufacturer who can sell them the car they want, and that won't feature a diesel engine.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

How can we judge the sportiness or character of a car before we drive it?

Because it contains a 1.5 litre diesel engine which will be featured in the new 1 series. Unless there has been an almighty revolution in diesel engines, then that is not a powerplant I would want in my R8 rivalling halo car.

efficient dynamics is spot on in my view regarding BMW's future planning.

I agree entirely....for the 1/3/5/6/7 series etc. But not for a very expensive sports car that may not even make up 1% of BMW sales.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

stuborn to see the flaws in your argument.

Me stubborn? No. Just have an opinion which differs from yours.

if necessary, can be artificially recreated like the Fisker Karma.

You're not really a driving enthusiast are you? It's comments like this which mean I just can't take you seriously. Sorry.

If artificial sound is acceptable then why don't manufacturers sell 1.0l diesels with a V12 soundtrack? Because it's akin to putting blue neons and great big spoilers on your car. I believe in the U.S. it's called "ricing". In the UK you'd be called a chav. The whole thing is laughable.

 

[rollo]

Because it contains a 1.5 litre diesel engine which will be featured in the new 1 series. Unless there has been an almighty revolution in diesel engines, then that is not a powerplant I would want in my R8 rivalling halo car.

That's not the "entire" powerplant as you point out by the use of the word "contains". It's also quite early in the process so it might not end up being "the" choice or the only choice. If it is "the" choice as I stated previously, why don't we wait to see what the "combination" yields in terms of performance and experience before we write it off?

 

[Betty Swollocks]

That's not the "entire" powerplant as you point out by the use of the word "contains". It's also quite early in the process so it might not end up being "the" choice or the only choice. If it is "the" choice as I stated previously, why don't we wait to see what the "combination" yields in terms of performance and experience before we write it off?

It's quite clear that BMW are using a very near future BMW 1.5 diesel combined with two electric motors. What is there to wait for? This is how they will proceed if a production VED gets the green light.

 

[Ultimate Car Guy]

You're not really a driving enthusiast are you? It's comments like this which mean I just can't take you seriously. Sorry.

If artificial sound is acceptable then why don't manufacturers sell 1.0l diesels with a V12 soundtrack? Because it's akin to putting blue neons and great big spoilers on your car. I believe in the U.S. it's called "ricing". In the UK you'd be called a chav. The whole thing is laughable.

Questioning my enthusiasm for passion for driving? Why ask? You know everyone in this forum has a passion for cars and driving- that's why we're here. If you're saying that to insult and provoke, then that makes me think even less of you. Pathetic.

As for your point about artificial sound. Let's start with diesel engines in general. Having driven the latest 3.0/inline 6 twin turbo in the X6, i can assure you that the pace of development of diesel engines is quite impressive. Based on sound, I could not tell that the vehicle was even a diesel. That distinctive clatter which traditionally characterises such an engine seems to have been eliminated- even when the vehicle is idle.

Have a look at the recent winners of Le Mans. Interesting to note that all of these Audi and Peugeot vehicles have been diesels!

Given the advances in diesel engine technology, where we are witnessing the elimination of the undesirable diesel clatter, where we are witnessing the dominance of diesel engines in a form of motorsport, where we are seeing diesel engines produce stunning acceleration times that can match petrol engines of equivalent displacement, then i wouldn't be surprised if this pace of development were to produce a diesel hybrid solution that would not fall out of place in a sports car.

As for the notion of artificial sound? Well, if you've bothered to read my post correctly, i was suggesting this concept as a supplement/alternative solution. Not the solution. I don't know if artificial sound is required in such a vehicle. I haven't even literally heard of this sound. All i know is that techology exists and can be applied if necessary. And given the advances in diesel technology, it most likely would not be necessary.

Interesting to note, as i've mentioned in my earlier posts, Porsche will launch an all electric 911 in the next few years. Logic dictates that they will have to produce an artificial sound, given that electric motors are silent and that Porsche needs to uphold it's sporting character in its vehicles. Without having seen or heard the final product, would you still say it's laughable? would you still say this vehicle is for "ricers" or "chavs" without having seen/heard/driven this product?

I think its highly dubious and laughable for you to pre-empt how the final solution will be resolved- unless you were an engineer for a car manufacturer.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Questioning my enthusiasm for passion for driving? Why ask? You know everyone in this forum has a passion for cars and driving- that's why we're here. If you're saying that to insult and provoke, then that makes me think even less of you. Pathetic.

As for your point about artificial sound. Let's start with diesel engines in general. Having driven the latest 3.0/inline 6 twin turbo in the X6, i can assure you that the pace of development of diesel engines is quite impressive. Based on sound, I could not tell that the vehicle was even a diesel. That distinctive clatter which traditionally characterises such an engine seems to have been eliminated- even when the vehicle is idle.

Have a look at the recent winners of Le Mans. Interesting to note that all of these Audi and Peugeot vehicles have been diesels!

Given the advances in diesel engine technology, where we are witnessing the elimination of the undesirable diesel clatter, where we are witnessing the dominance of diesel engines in a form of motorsport, where we are seeing diesel engines produce stunning acceleration times that can match petrol engines of equivalent displacement, then i wouldn't be surprised if this pace of development were to produce a diesel hybrid solution that would not fall out of place in a sports car.

As for the notion of artificial sound? Well, if you've bothered to read my post correctly, i was suggesting this concept as a supplement/alternative solution. Not the solution. I don't know if artificial sound is required in such a vehicle. I haven't even literally heard of this sound. All i know is that techology exists and can be applied if necessary. And given the advances in diesel technology, it most likely would not be necessary.

Interesting to note, as i've mentioned in my earlier posts, Porsche will launch an all electric 911 in the next few years. Logic dictates that they will have to produce an artificial sound, given that electric motors are silent and that Porsche needs to uphold it's sporting character in its vehicles. Without having seen or heard the final product, would you still say it's laughable? would you still say this vehicle is for "ricers" or "chavs" without having seen/heard/driven this product?

I think its highly dubious and laughable for you to pre-empt how the final solution will be resolved- unless you were an engineer for a car manufacturer.

OK. You are right about everything and I am wrong.

 

[Ultimate Car Guy]

OK. You are right about everything and I am wrong.

Do you wanna stop it now Betty? cos i'm getting really tired and bored over this argument.

Lets move on. There's other interesting this we can debate in this forum.

 

[rollo]

It's quite clear that BMW are using a very near future BMW 1.5 diesel combined with two electric motors. What is there to wait for? This is how they will proceed if a production VED gets the green light.

And you know it will suck because you have already experienced this platform?

 

[Betty Swollocks]

And you know it will suck because you have already experienced this platform?

Christ Almighty. What has the platform got to do with anything? I'm quite clearly talking about the propulsion. The engine. The drivetrain.

 

[klier]

Christ Almighty. What has the platform got to do with anything? I'm quite clearly talking about the propulsion. The engine. The drivetrain.

You don't know ANYTHING about that either, so just wait with your comment that it will be boring and whatnot.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

You don't know ANYTHING about that either, so just wait with your comment that it will be boring and whatnot.

It's very easy for you to say I cannot prove what the 1.5 diesel engine will be like and just hide behind that statement. But tell me this Klier. Do you honestly think it's going to rival a 4.0 V8, 5.0 V10, or a even a 4.4 twin turbo V8?

And don't reply by saying "but these engines are not relevant in today's world." I know they're not......in a mainstream model. My ONE AND ONLY point is that a diesel/electric engine has no place in a car like this, and if it's the only engine they're going to use then I'm afraid it's goodbye to the supercar. Anybody who is happy with fuel economy and efficiency IN PLACE OF NOISE AND EMOTION in a supercar is missing the point of a supercar completely.