Discussion on new V12 engine

[Wolfgang]

Yes. There's a 350 hp four rotor Wankel shown in this movie. For the restauration project they selected the V8 instead, which some of the original C111s also used. Also had a CFRP chassis and one of the first ABS versions.

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[in German]

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[in English]

 

[Rolf]

That C111 is too my eyes still one of the best looking sportscar concepts Mercedes have ever displayed. It would have been amazing if they produced this car.

 

[Mick Briesgau]

It will be shown in the museum this summer, from April 28 to November 15, 2015.

I Still have some free entry cards. I know I'll be traveling to "Star Country" Baden Württemberg this summer

 

[Wolfgang]

^ A preview.

https://www.facebook.com/mercedesbenzmuseum

 

[hannaz]

Mercedes-AMG reportedly plotting a V12 supercar

The Mercedes-AMG GT offers an intoxicating blend of style and performance but word on the street is indicating an even more powerful sports car in the works.

According to Autoblog, an AMG product planner has revealed the company is working on an all-new "halo" model that will feature a hybridized powertrain that consists of a new V12 engine, an electric motor and a battery pack. There's no word on specifications but the publication is reporting the model could offer the "greatest performance of any Mercedes yet."

Little else is known about the car but it appears to be several years off.

Source: http://www.worldcarfans.com/115091899157/mercedes-amg-reportedly-plotting-a-v12-supercar

 

[Wunderkind]

Mercedes-AMG reportedly plotting a V12 supercar

The Mercedes-AMG GT offers an intoxicating blend of style and performance but word on the street is indicating an even more powerful sports car in the works.

According to Autoblog, an AMG product planner has revealed the company is working on an all-new "halo" model that will feature a hybridized powertrain that consists of a new V12 engine, an electric motor and a battery pack. There's no word on specifications but the publication is reporting the model could offer the "greatest performance of any Mercedes yet."

Little else is known about the car but it appears to be several years off.

Source: http://www.worldcarfans.com/115091899157/mercedes-amg-reportedly-plotting-a-v12-supercar

If true, I think this car will be the last hurrah of the big capacity internal combustion engine and marks the end of the petrol-engine era. Let's hope for Tobias Moers' sake, Dr Zetsche will grant him the budget required to purchase a used LaFerrari to "research" the Ferrari's hybrid V12 power unit.

Let's hope this car will not be a two-tonne monster like the Bugatti Veyron or Chiron. We want a car that is light and will beat the LaFerrari, McLaren P1, and their successors.

 

[SKY]

I find it hard to believe there will be more V12 powered halo cars. McLaren and Porsche already use V8s and it seems Ferrari will ditch the V12 on their next gen cars as well.

 

[Monster]

AMG already builds the engine for the Huayra, so it is possible that Pagani has contacted AMG to add a hybrid system to the existing V12, and AMG will use that on their own super car as well?

 

[hoffmeister_fan]

I find it hard to believe there will be more V12 powered halo cars. McLaren and Porsche already use V8s and it seems Ferrari will ditch the V12 on their next gen cars as well.

Not to go too OT, but when I read that few days ago, I felt ill to my stomach. A Ferrari line-up without a car that posesses that iconic V12 wail is just wrong.

 

[Wolfgang]

AMG already builds the engine for the Huayra, so it is possible that Pagani has contacted AMG to add a hybrid system to the existing V12, and AMG will use that on their own super car as well?

Yes, AMG engine builder Michael Kübler builds those V12s for Pagani. Just checked in on his instagram, for an update.


The Pagani Zonda Revolución is the evolution of the species and the revolution in the concept of art applied to pure speed.

The Pagani Zonda Revolución is the apex of the celebration of performance, technology and art applied to a track car. Horacio Pagani and his team have created a car designed to amaze both on the track and in a car collection.

The central monocoque is carbon-titanium, the needle on the scale stops at 1070kg. The Mercedes-AMG engine is an evolution of the Zonda R powerplant. The 6.0L V12 now develops an output of 800HP and 730 Nm of Torque, resulting in a power to weight ratio of 748HP per tonne.

The 6 speed magnesium transversal and sequential gearbox changes gears in 20ms. The traction control developed by Bosch with 12 different settings and the renewed ABS system, allows the driver to adapt the behavior of the car to his driving style.....

 

[hoffmeister_fan]

Does Kubler exclusively work on engines for Pagani, or does he work on V12s destined for M-B's as well? Conversely, are there others who build engines for Pagani or just Kubler?

 

[Wunderkind]

I find it hard to believe there will be more V12 powered halo cars. McLaren and Porsche already use V8s and it seems Ferrari will ditch the V12 on their next gen cars as well.

Mercedes is in a different situation to Ferrari and Porsche. Top-end Mercedes clients still demand V12-engined models, and then there are Aston Martin and Pagani. Depending on the state of the global economy, total annual demand can range from anywhere between 1,500 to 3,000 V12 engines.

Ferrari's V12 engines are for themselves only and they will build them as long as there is demand for them and they can get around the prevailing legislations.

Porsche has very little history with V12 engines but if they were to build a V12 engine, they'd have to do it in partnership with other members of the VAG group. But given there is already a W12 engine being used variously by VW, Bentley, and Bugatti, and a updated one in the pipeline, a new Porsche V12 will never happen.

 

[Wolfgang]

Does Kubler exclusively work on engines for Pagani, or does he work on V12s destined for M-B's as well? Conversely, are there others who build engines for Pagani or just Kubler?

Besides Michael Kübler there is one other AMG engine builder qualified to build Pagani engines, he said recently. And he just announced the below.

Mercedes-AMG GT3 "The Track Monster".
I am able to announce now that I am building the engine for our newest Customer Race Car "The Track Monster" Mercedes-AMG GT3.

 

[Wunderkind]

A new Mercedes V12 engine will not be totally bespoke and unique. It will essentially be two in-line six engines mated together.

Mercedes needs a V12 engine to compete with Bentley, RR, and BMW.

 

[Rolf]

It would be great to see a new V12 based on 2 of the upcoming straight six engines joined together and as well as worked on by AMG powerhouse magic and we could have a 800 to 1000PS engine easy. It would be a much greener engine as well and also maybe with later tech such as 4 valve heads and electric turbos + hybrid could bring another 160hp, so this package could have the potential of 960 to 1160PS!!!

 

[hannaz]

AFAIK, Mercedes wants to retain V12 engines in their niche segment with more power and green certificate; this will be for the flagship sedan like Maybach variant (which said to be more exclusive and bespoke compared to X222), heavy armored car, top end super-car and to meet demand from engine user. The present V12 in both normal & AMG avatars are not having the high margin over the output of the rivals; and the V8s from Merc itself outperforming the V12 as it is heavy. So the next gen V12 is supposed to be more powerful, greener and lighter.

Meantime, I have attend the press meet of Ferrari at IAA 2015, and as an answer to a jouno's question, the chief of Ferrari said that they may use new turbo for V12 and make if more powerful and less emission less. But no plan to ditch the V12s.

As per the present strategy we seen in Merc, we can expect them to make the next supercar in join with Pagani, as they did with Brabus to build the new Pullman. So anything can possible in this present world.

 

[Wolfgang]

Merc-AMG boss: "I’ll save the V12 and rear-wheel drive"

Tobias Moers is the chairman of AMG, which makes him a very good chap in Top Gear’s book. Having had our internal organs pummeled by the new, faster AMG A45, TG sat down with Merc’s kingpin of performance to find out what’s next for Germany’s new-school muscle cars…

TG: The new A45’s got 376bhp. Is that the limit for a four-cylinder engine right now?

Tobias Moers: With this generation of engine, that’s it. We’re now in the second half of the A45’s life cycle. In this generation of A45, CLA or GLA, this is the limit.”

TG: What’s the limiting factor?

TM: It’s getting pretty hard to squeeze any more power out of two litres! We’re up there with superbikes, getting 191hp per litre…

TG: But you seem pretty relaxed about staying ahead of Audi, VW and Honda…

TM: Oh, yes. We’re working on the next-generation four-cylinder for the future small car family. I’m very relaxed. [Moers grins, but won’t let on how much power that engine’s kicking out.]

We’re up there with superbikes, getting 191hp per litre

TG: What about a lighter A-Class? Say, a stripped-out Black Series?

TM: The A45 goes under eight minutes at the Nordschliefe, and has managed a ten-second improvement [with the new version]. We’re happy with that. Is there a market for a lightweight A45? No, I don’t think so. We’re not having a discussion about an A45 Black Series or any kind of street-racer in AMG.

TG: What’s the future for your engines?

TM: The S63 AMG Cabriolet that you’ll see in Frankfurt is more or less the last new car we will make with the 5.5-litre V8 engine. The new 4.0-litre V8 bi-turbo will be around for a long time, but we’ll keep the ‘63’ badging.

Sure, the 4.0-litre V8 will go in the new E63, and it can match the current standard in the [supersaloon] class. [That’ll be the 600bhp BMW M5 30 Jahre, then].

TG: And what about your V12? Can it survive the eco tests?

TM: We have V12 aficionados worldwide, so it’s up to us to give that engine a future. But maybe it will have to take on a different concept, so we’ll discuss how to proceed with that in the future.

Hybrids? Perhaps, but battery technology is the limiting factor – everyone is always talking about the next generation of batteries, in ten or twenty years’ time…

TG: Can we assume there’ll be AMG versions of the new GLC and GLC Coupe 4x4s?

TM: Yes, and we’re developing a new 4Matic AMG system. Those cars lend themselves well to all-wheel drive. But firstly, there’ll be AMG Sport versions. [Like the GLE 450 and C450 ‘halfway house’ models.]

TG: What about matching Tesla?

TM: [laughs] That’s a bit of a story! We did make the SLS Electric Drive, which is still the fastest EV around the Norschliefe. Nobody beat it in three years – not even Tesla…

TM: But where’s the tech transfer from SLS Electric Drive to, say, an E63 Electric Drive?

TM: [laughs again] No, but I’ll take that idea home with me! That’s a good proposal. We got a lot of experience with the SLS project, so it’d be stupid to throw what we learned away.

But the SLS was a state of the art, ‘what is possible’ car, with four motors, torque vectoring, blah blah blah. It was unbelievably expensive, and not supposed to be for the mass market.

We’re looking what we can use – and adding new ideas – for what we can do with electricity in the future. There is a development programme happening within AMG. I believe more in electrification that I do in performance diesels.

The SLS Electric Drive was unbelievably expensive…

TG: Will AMG go completely all-wheel drive, one day?

TM: No. I think a C63 and AMG GT are perfect with rear-wheel drive. They have good traction, but if you turn off the traction control you can still have fun with the handling and burn up the tyres.

Both the new C63 and AMG GT have much better traction than the old C63 or SLS, but they’re still fun to drive. This is the most important thing. It’s all about the emotion.

TG: Finally, what do you drive?

TM: I have an AMG GT S as my everyday car. It’s matt grey, and has the aero kit. And I have a GLE 63 AMG Coupe…

TopGear

 

[Wolfgang]

Mercedes-AMG Increasing V12 Production Meet Demand
Mercedes-AMG has announced that it will increase production of its V12 engines on the back of high demand for the engines.

The high-performance division of Mercedes-Benz will begin producing its V12s at the Daimler factory in Mannheim, Germany located nearby to the Mercedes headquarters in Stuttgart and AMG’s base in Affalterbach.


The factory in Mannheim provides AMG with the ability to produce more V12 engines thanks to the facility’s larger size and additional resources. It will also allow the Affalterbach site to focus solely on its high-performance V8 engines.

Discussing the news, chairman of the board of management of Mercedes-AMG Tobias Moers said “Due to the strong demand for our automobiles, our production capacities at the Affalterbach engine production facility are fully utilised. Supplying our customers as fast as possible is highly important to us. We do not have any possibilities for expansion in Affalterbach at present, so we have decided to transfer the assembly of the 12-cylinder engines to the Daimler site in Mannheim.”

AMG currently uses its twin-turbocharged 6.0-litre V12 engine for the S65 AMG sedan, coupe and cabriolet as well as the SL65 AMG and G65 AMG.

http://gtspirit.com/2015/11/20/mercedes-amg-increasing-v12-production-meet-demand/

 

[Monster]

So now that the new petrol straight 6 engines are near production ready, will we hear further updates, perhaps a confirmation that a new V12 is in the works, logically the engineers would have tried combining those new straight 6 engines to see what will happen.

 

[Merc1]

It would be just the best thing ever if a new V12 debuted with the S600/S65 facelifts.

M