Hot! Diesel ban approved for German cities to cut pollution

[klier]

Genuine question, do you live in Rotterdam? I know the air quality in some of the UK's Southern Sea Port towns is affected by the fumes from ships and the like, do you think that's a problem there?

I live in The Hague. It's probably a bigger problem in Rotterdam because of the port and stuff, but my city is below EU standards too. And as you know, The Hague is right next to the North Sea with all it's fresh air, and yet still the air is poor. Imagine that.

Replacing each ICE vehicle 1:1 with an EV does not work for many reasons and is not sufficient. Infrastructure needs to be reconsidered...

It's not just EV. We also have Hydrogen cars. One already being on sale from Toyota, and I remember going to the IAA in the '90s (!!) where BMW already had hydrogen powered tech, which they never stopped developing. And solar powered car, and whatever else?

 

[Matski]

My point exactly. There are so many other external factors that are changing outside of the improvement in battery tech which will expedite the adoption of electric transport. In addition to these:

• More cities will ban diesels.
• Carbon taxes will continue to rise.
• In the last 10 years, the general population has become far more aware (esp the younger generations) that climate change is very real and also man-made. The awareness and emphasis of decarbonizing transport is now greater then it has ever been before.
• In metropolitan cities, Electric bikes/scooters are going to eat into ICE sales from the low end.

Valid points; I think diesel bans will come into effect in more places, but will range from total bans to dirty diesel bans. I agree Carbon Tax will rise, that's a given, until the governments and money men realise there's enough people in EV's to find a way of taxing them too. It'll probably be on PM10 or PM2.5 output or something. I agree that E scooters in cities make so much sense... but with properly dense cities like Paris, I think the lack of domestic charging availability will stiffle E scooters more than less dense urban environments.

As for population awareness, you're probably right here too... but the overwhelming majority of those people do not buy new cars, and they don't buy them regularly enough to allow the uptake of new the new technology as quickly as some are predicting. People might be aware that decarbonisation of transport is probably a good idea, but until it's a viable purchase for them, it doesn't matter.

 

[Busty]

It's not just EV. We also have Hydrogen cars. One already being on sale from Toyota, and I remember going to the IAA in the '90s (!!) where BMW already had hydrogen powered tech, which they never stopped developing. And solar powered car, and whatever else?

It was meant as an exaggeration, anyway. As said, EVs are just one piece of the mosaic. Hydrogen, however, is not what I thought of, primarily (I remember that 750iL, it had a very bad degree of efficiency). I count on fuel cell, on synthetic fuels, on new forms of public transport, car sharing, car ownership, etc.

 

[klier]

It was meant as an exaggeration, anyway. As said, EVs are just one piece of the mosaic. Hydrogen, however, is not what I thought of, primarily (I remember that 750iL very well, it had a very bad degree of efficiency). I count on fuel cell, on synthetic fuels, on new forms of public transport, car sharing, car ownership, etc.

But ultimately.... WTF are the Germans doing? And I mean that for real. How can Jaguar have an i Pace and no German with an answer? What is happening? Why is the new VW Golf coming with these moronic TDI engines yet again?

 

[cawimmer430]

How can Jaguar have an i Pace and no German with an answer?

There is only one "production-ready" electric car from a German company. And it's a start-up company that teamed up with the Deutsche Post, which now produces it...

However, it does have range issues, especially during the winter. A friend of mine has a friend who drives these things (he works for the Deutsche Post). According to him you need to keep the heating off during the winter to squeeze every bit of range out of it. Standard range is a claimed 80 km, which under real world conditions will obviously drastically drop.


Link: Paketboten fahren Elektroauto - und sind glücklich damit

 

[klier]

Glücklich when having to turn off the heating during the winter......okayyyyy

 

[Matski]

Isn't that the Streetscooter, that utilises BMW i3 Battery packs?

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/12/3...streetscooter-evs-using-bmw-i3-battery-packs/

 

[Rolf]

You guys mention the end of ICE engines as been imminent but you think that the oil industry will end as well? Too much revenue involved there as well for governments all over the world and industries with millions of employees will definitely not can the ICE in the near future. It's not just cars that will be involved in emission reductions but also buses, trucks and heavy industrial equipment. If all of these had to become electrical powered it wouldn't be feasible and way too expensive, the electrical infrastructure in major cities and countries wouldn't be able to handle all this additional electrical demand and just think about the difficulties of setting up all the charging points in places with remote areas. They would have to create some mobile charging units to cope for vehicles used in these areas of low populations and towns miles apart.

 

[tristatez28lt1]

There is only one "production-ready" electric car from a German company. And it's a start-up company that teamed up with the Deutsche Post, which now produces it...

However, it does have range issues, especially during the winter. A friend of mine has a friend who drives these things (he works for the Deutsche Post). According to him you need to keep the heating off during the winter to squeeze every bit of range out of it. Standard range is a claimed 80 km, which under real world conditions will obviously drastically drop.


Link: Paketboten fahren Elektroauto - und sind glücklich damit

This "thing" has turned out to be a failure:
Post baut Mitarbeitern eigenes Auto, doch die haben Angst einzusteigen - Video
E-Auto der Deutschen Post: Winterprobleme mit dem Streetscooter - WELT

 

[EnI]

Isn't that the Streetscooter, that utilises BMW i3 Battery packs?

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/12/3...streetscooter-evs-using-bmw-i3-battery-packs/

Yes, that's the one.

But ultimately.... WTF are the Germans doing? And I mean that for real. How can Jaguar have an i Pace and no German with an answer? What is happening? Why is the new VW Golf coming with these moronic TDI engines yet again?

What do you mean? No German luxury BEV? No German BEV with high mileage?

Because there are some German BEVs available: BMW i3, VW e-Golf, VW e-Up, Smart electric.

But it's true non of them is truly a luxury vehicle and / or offers high mileage batteries.



Also, current BEVs are still not very profitable & are rather limited in production (mostly due to poor battery supply). There will be more models available when battery (or / and even raw material incl rare earth) supply chains are established and especially when better battery tech is available.

Mind no larger carmaker is interested in mass volume production of BEVs with current battery tech. Most are waiting for viable mass production of solid state batteries, which are about to be available in 2024, and are proven to be much superior tech: feature better energy density, are less temperature change prone & are able of really ultra fast charging (but they need active cooling though). Until then the BEV production by established carmakers will be rather limited since nobody is really interested in investing into outgoing battery tech production. But expect BEV explosion when solid state batteries become widely available & by then ultra fast chargers (800V, 350kVA) will also be available.

 

[EnI]

You guys mention the end of ICE engines as been imminent but you think that the oil industry will end as well?

I have read some researches saying the peak of oil industry will be reached in 2035, and then it will sharply decline, and starting to lose its appeal after 2050. So, it's expected ALL oil rich countries will try to capitalise from the upcoming oil boom until it phases out completely. That could mean there will be quite a pressure on supply - with tendency of oversupply, resulting in oil price drop.

Don't be surprised if running on diesel or petrol will be cheaper near 2035 and after than running on electricity. Due to BEV explosion & full-ICE sales bans the demand for electricity will increase while supply could lag behind - resulting in higher electricity prices (mind that eg. crypto currency mining and heating shifting from fosile fuels to electricity also drive electricity demand higher. While petrol / diesel demand will be lower & supply high, resulting in significant price drop.

Every oil rich company will try to pump & sell oil as much as possible until it is still relevant, and the price is reasonable.

So, owners of ICE vehicles will be better off in some period - enjoying significantly low fuel prices. But unfortunately they will be limited by sever traffic bans especially in dense urban areas, and with much more limited petrol station networks.

 

[Deleted member 25]

2050 huh. I remember reading in the 90-00s all of those reports predicting a max of 30 years of oil reserves.

 

[EnI]

2050 huh. I remember reading in the 90-00s all of those reports predicting a max of 30 years of oil reserves.

Known reserves at that times. But after that new ones have been discovered (eg. off shores, in natural reservats, in ex-USSR countries etc) + fracking was introduced.

 

[cawimmer430]

Off-topic, but today I shot three Range Rover 3.0 TD V6 for OviCars Munich from 6 AM to 4 PM. During most of the shoot the diesel engines of these SUVs were idling (because we had to move the cars constantly for different shots).

Two things.

One - you could not hear them. Even while cold these diesel engines were incredibly quiet, refined and smooth. When I was able to sit inside the cars and photograph details I was impressed with just how refined these motors were.

Second - no horrible smells. Whatever was coming out of the tailpipe was odorless. These are obviously state-of-the-art clean diesels. I really don't see the point in buying a gas-guzzling Range Rover V6/V8 when I can get the same car with an efficient and clean diesel engine. Do the idiots in the government really think that a V6/V8 gasoline-powered SUV is "better" for clean air?

Anyway, here's a behind the scene shot.

 

[Cashmere]

When you've been inhaling toxic fumes for far too long:

VW predicts 'renaissance' for embattled diesel cars

Volkswagen Group, whose global emissions-cheating scandal has put the future of diesel engines in doubt, expects consumers to return to the embattled technology -- and soon.

"Diesel will see a renaissance in the not-too-distant future because people who drove diesels will realize that it was a very comfortable drive concept," CEO Matthias Mueller told journalists Monday at the Geneva auto show.

"Once the knowledge that diesels are eco-friendly firms up in people's minds, then for me there's no reason not to buy one."

Link: VW predicts 'renaissance' for embattled diesel cars

 

[KiwiRob]

ICE are going nowhere.
We had a brutal winter this year, and all the tree-huggers like the rest of the people were busy running the cars idle, burning whatever they can find to keep warm.
ICE are the backbone of the mining industry- think mining of copper, cobalt, lithium, iron ore, coal(used in steel production).
Maybe parts of Europe might phase out ICE but not going to happen in NA,SA, Australia,Asia, Africa.
So all the EnvironMentalist and their political lapdogs can keep pretending all they want, truth is we all like to be comfortable.
So to think that we are witnessing the last days of the ICE is a bit short-sighted.

All those off highway mining trucks are hybrids now, how hard will it be to eventually go electric for all mining equipment.

I hate the idea of an electric world, electric cars have no soul, but it will happen because there is plenty of incentives for govts to make it happen.

This Komatsu is an electric prototype.

 

[KiwiRob]

Germany became a laughin within the past six months. A big thanks to our regierungsgeile-Kanzlerin who still fails to see the desires and needs of our citizens.

I think the best example of Germany going down the toilet is Brandenburg International Airport. It was supposed to be opened already, now projected opening is 2020, it's billions over budget, it's only a new terminal and runway added to an existing airport, the Chinese would have knocked this up and had it operational within 2-3 years.

 

[KiwiRob]

And do you think once people start buying EV in a big way it will remain free?

This is why I can't get excited about any tax savings or congestion zone savings, because eventually the governments and local councils will just tax the EV cars in the same way as they did the ICE vehicles. They're not going to accept a drop in tax revenue.

It's already happening in Norway the incentives to buy electric are being slowly removed, toll roads, ferries and bridges are no longer free, free parking is now up to the local authorities discretion, most have decided to charge, the one massive incentive left now sales tax and the smaller annual registration fee is still free but I wonder for how much longer??

 

[KiwiRob]

Lol, I know, t'was a joke.

Genuine question, do you live in Rotterdam? I know the air quality in some of the UK's Southern Sea Port towns is affected by the fumes from ships and the like, do you think that's a problem there?

Ships idling in ports produce massive amount of NOx and CO2, the average sized container vessel produces more harmful emissions than millions of cars.

 

[KiwiRob]

But ultimately.... WTF are the Germans doing? And I mean that for real. How can Jaguar have an i Pace and no German with an answer? What is happening? Why is the new VW Golf coming with these moronic TDI engines yet again?

The British have been investing in battery electric for decades.