Vs BMW M vs MB AMG (posts moved from other threads)

[Matski]

SLR

SLS

AMG

Yeah, it's called a shift in marketing strategy.

Nope going from a 8 to a 6er isn't a marketing strategy

I have to admit, I've given up reading most of your posts... but this... this is comedy gold.

 

[Merc1]

I have to admit, I've given up reading most of your posts... but this... this is comedy gold.

I've given up on yours too, but it isn't because they're funny or accurate.


8-Series........crickets.

Z8............crickets.


M

 

[klier]

What does BMW have in the same space at the S600 Maybach? If it is "nothing special" then why is BMW about to try to compete with it?


M

Let me quote you again then:

You have to follow the conversation.

M

BMW is not about to compete with it, they already do with the M760Li.

(1)What makes a V12 7er any more special than a Maybach Mercedes S600? (2)It doesn't look any different to a 740iL with M-pack. (3) Its a fake M-car as well. (4)The Maybach is more luxurious and certainly is even more unique.

1) I didn't say it's more special
2) So what?
3) Never said the M760Li is an M car. It's as much M as the S is Maybach
4) It sure is NOT. Particularly the unique part. You can't have the best selling car and also have it as most unique. You even have an S500 Maybach! Stop it!!!!!

 

[klier]

Not to wade too deep into this cess pool... but as far as Alpina is concerned, for a consumer, it is 100% BMW - you buy the car from BMW dealer, you get BMW warranty, you take it for service at the BMW dealer, you buy parts from BMW and you get all BMW programs - roadside assistance, courtesy services. Heck, you can even configure it in the BMW website.

We do have Alpina dealerships over here though. You can't just walk into any BMW dealership if you want an Alpina.

 

[Zafiro]

Alpina and BMW started to work before many of you were born, starting with a nice race history...
BMW and Alpina started to work together already in 1962...
---------

"Alpina Burkard Bovensiepen GmbH & Co. KG is an automobile manufacturing company based in Buchloe, in the Ostallgäu district of Bavaria, Germany selling their own cars, based on BMW cars.


Alpina works closely with BMW and their processes are integrated into BMW's production lines, thus Alpina is recognized by the German Ministry of Transport as an automobile manufacturer, in contrast to other performance specialists which are aftermarket tuners. For instance, the Alpina B7 is produced at the same assembly line in Dingolfing, Germany, along with BMW's own 7-Series. For the 2011 model year, the B7's twin-turbo 4.4-litre BMW V8 is assembled by hand at Alpina's facility in Buchloe, Germany, before being shipped to BMW for installation, and the assembled vehicle is then sent back to Alpina for finishing touches."

-------

Intrested in more Alpina milestones?
http://www.alpina-automobiles.com/en/alpina/milestones/

 

[klier]

8-Series........crickets.

Z8............crickets.

And meanwhile, the average M6 costs as much as an S500 Maybach.

LOL at you constantly going back to a very old 8er and a standalone Z8, though. Very cute.

Also funny: S500 Maybach in my country: 160k
Maybach 57S: 540k

SLR McLaren: 630k (in 2007!)
AMG GT: 150k

Yes, a shift in marketing strategy indeed.

 

[Sovereign]

Until BMW doesn't offer an exclusive M car, it will play second fiddle to the AMG brand IMO. Like C63 and E63, M3, M5 etc are souped up versions of the current cars and BMW customers also have the Alpina offer that are more unique and maybe more special. A hardcore BMW fan will always prefer the M and same with the Mercedes fan who will prefer the AMG. But for an average Joe, the AMG SLS or GT is a unique highend model that is purely AMG. This in my view is a real brand building exercise.

Somebody here mentioned that M was original and AMG was bought by Mercedes to have an alternative for the M brand. True but Mercedes did a very good job in raising the AMG brand to the success level it is enjoying today. And by the way 7 series was a me too version to the original German super sedan the S Class.

 

[domleo999]

What makes a V12 7er any more special than a Maybach Mercedes S600? It doesn't look any different to a 740iL with M-pack. Its a fake M-car as well. The Maybach is more luxurious and certainly is even more unique.

I'm glad you said this. See an M car has to have certain qualities to qualify as an M car. The 7 series isn't an M car , your right.

But is the S65 a true amg? What even is an amg? They stick it on every single one of their car nowadays, it doesn't mean much nowadays. every new vehicle they realease is just the same reused V8, the same body kit, the same appearance. To me it doesn't have any distinctive qualities anymore.

RS cars are know for Quattro, M for lightweight and steering. Amg used to be big V8s, but they've milked the brand dry. A45 for example.

I'm surprised they haven't brought out a B45 yet

 

[Matski]

I've given up on yours too, but it isn't because they're funny or accurate.


8-Series........crickets.

Z8............crickets.


M

Huh okay, maybe a I should try posting in your style, see if you find that funnier or more accurate.

<merc1>That's BS! 8-Series and Z8 were a success because they were upmarket for BMW, I don't understand your point. Try again!</merc1>

 

[Rolf]

I'm glad you said this. See an M car has to have certain qualities to qualify as an M car. The 7 series isn't an M car , your right.

But is the S65 a true amg? What even is an amg? They stick it on every single one of their car nowadays, it doesn't mean much nowadays. every new vehicle they realease is just the same reused V8, the same body kit, the same appearance. To me it doesn't have any distinctive qualities anymore.

RS cars are know for Quattro, M for lightweight and steering. Amg used to be big V8s, but they've milked the brand dry. A45 for example.

I'm surprised they haven't brought out a B45 yet

I do understand what you are saying that AMG is spreading their brand to more and more Mercedes models so doesn't seem that special anymore. It could probably be said the same of BMW M and Audi with S and RS models as all of them want to sell more cars and increase profits and revenue. Well AMG have also got a history with six cylinder engines, look at the first modern AMG, the C36 (W202) and E36 (W210) and then the supercharged six in the C32, SLK32, they were also good engines rich on power and torque. I would say the defining thing that makes AMG's great is their engines. Even the AMG 45 has a great engine, the most powerful 4-cylinder in the world.

 

[Rolf]

Huh okay, maybe a I should try posting in your style, see if you find that funnier or more accurate.

<merc1>That's BS! 8-Series and Z8 were a success because they were upmarket for BMW, I don't understand your point. Try again!</merc1>

Actually in my opinion those 2 models the 8-series and Z8 were the best looking BMW's of their generation and are notable classics.

 

[klier]

Actually in my opinion those 2 models the 8-series and Z8 were the best looking BMW's of their generation and are notable classics.

But the whole point of this thread was AMG being fake and M being real. AMG is like Audi; created by the marketing departments.

I don't care about the Maybach, Z8 or 8 series.

 

[domleo999]

I do understand what you are saying that AMG is spreading their brand to more and more Mercedes models so doesn't seem that special anymore. It could probably be said the same of BMW M and Audi with S and RS models as all of them want to sell more cars and increase profits and revenue. Well AMG have also got a history with six cylinder engines, look at the first modern AMG, the C36 (W202) and E36 (W210) and then the supercharged six in the C32, SLK32, they were also good engines rich on power and torque. I would say the defining thing that makes AMG's great is their engines. Even the AMG 45 has a great engine, the most powerful 4-cylinder in the world.

Good response. I've just has a look about their 6 cylinder history, im surprised these looked like great engines.

I do agree that more M's and RS models are being made, but I think they still all stick to their legacy's quite well. AMG's imo are heavier than their direct competitors and visually underwhelming and predictable.

Even BMW's future transverse performance cars aren't fully fleged M vehicles, but Mercedes claim theirs are.

Regarding the A45, I agree its an impressive crazy engine, but it seems like they forgot about everything else in the car. The drive IMO is awful, It really feels like a FWD car and lacks a dynamic drive. the RS3 with the same layout works a lot better.

 

[Matski]

Actually in my opinion those 2 models the 8-series and Z8 were the best looking BMW's of their generation and are notable classics.

I personally think the Z8 is one of the best looking cars still on the roads today. To be fair though, if the argument is whether they were a commercial success, then how they look and how they are remembered isn't really a factor. Target sales volumes, actual sales volumes, profitability, product reception and market reaction are more relevant, I don't have all those things - I was hoping they would be posted as proof of failure... but it seems not.

 

[TMCCL65]

I won't get involved in trashing M cars (I have owned and enjoyed two of them). But I will say that Klier's trashing of AMG shows his complete lack of automotive knowledge and history. When someone is so blinded by fanaticism he doesn't understand that BMW M NEEDS AMG and vice-versa. That he does not recognize that the evolution of M cars today are a direct result of AMG;s influence on the market.

Someone who makes those sort of ignorant statements has not fully understood the war that has been waged over the past 30+ years...where enthusiasts on both sides have benefited from the escalation. Does anyone think that the E39 M5 would have existed in its near perfection without a W210 E55 AMG? If AMG was not producing quality products, than why does it seem BMW M is always rebutting them. Which also works the other way, AMG sees an improvement on the breed from BMW M and fashions its own response.

I have owned two M cars, two AMGs and 1 Audi RS and 2 S models. They have all been forged from the same burning desire to out-perform the other German manufacturers. We should rejoice that each company and division exists, and that they will constantly improve the breed for our benefit.

 

[Rolf]

But the whole point of this thread was AMG being fake and M being real. AMG is like Audi; created by the marketing departments.

I don't care about the Maybach, Z8 or 8 series.

You have got your blinkers on my friend AMG has a rich heritage in Motorsport they were created even before M became famous. They also got a wonderful history with producing mega engines. In 1984 they brought out a 32 valve 5,6 liter V8 engine with 360hp which was only 40hp less than the engine in the Ferrari 288 GTO,which at that time was the worlds fastest production car. That engine got installed into the SEC and a little later they created the worlds fastest sedan the AMG Hammer with the same engine.

 

[Serpens]

I'm glad you said this. See an M car has to have certain qualities to qualify as an M car. The 7 series isn't an M car , your right.

But is the S65 a true amg? What even is an amg? They stick it on every single one of their car nowadays, it doesn't mean much nowadays. every new vehicle they realease is just the same reused V8, the same body kit, the same appearance. To me it doesn't have any distinctive qualities anymore.

RS cars are know for Quattro, M for lightweight and steering. Amg used to be big V8s, but they've milked the brand dry. A45 for example.

I'm surprised they haven't brought out a B45 yet

I'm sorry, but this post is trash. M for lightweight and steering? Does the X5 M not exist in your world? The M5 is lightweight? Also don't act like BMW M's don't all come with very similar body kits and engines. The 1M and M2 share engine versions with the M3/M4, the X5/6M and M5/6 share engines as well. They all have similar bumper designs and mirrors, as per styling guidelines.

AMG never once said they were restricted to big V8's, Hell, did you forget about the C36 and C32? The 65 AMG's that came with V12's?

This is unlike BMW M which made statements that have since been broken. Time and market changes will do that, BMW M simply made the mistake of making it sound like that's not the case.

The sole argument that is even remotely valid in your post is that AMG isn't particularly exclusive. And that's a fine criticism. AMG's exclusivity nowadays comes in the form of AMG-only vehicles like the GT and upcoming super sedan.

 

[Serpens]

Good response. I've just has a look about their 6 cylinder history, im surprised these looked like great engines.

I do agree that more M's and RS models are being made, but I think they still all stick to their legacy's quite well. AMG's imo are heavier than their direct competitors and visually underwhelming and predictable.

Even BMW's future transverse performance cars aren't fully fleged M vehicles, but Mercedes claim theirs are.

Regarding the A45, I agree its an impressive crazy engine, but it seems like they forgot about everything else in the car. The drive IMO is awful, It really feels like a FWD car and lacks a dynamic drive. the RS3 with the same layout works a lot better.

You should really stop speaking in generalizations. They're not always heavier than the competition. As you can see in these Car and Driver tests from a few years back, they're sometimes [barely] lighter than BMW's:

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2013-audi-s6-vs-2013-bmw-m5-2012-mercedes-benz-e63-amg-1.pdf

http://media.caranddriver.com/files...es-benz-ml63-2012-porsche-cayenne-turbo-1.pdf

Or within 100lbs: http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2013-audi-s6-vs-2013-bmw-m5-2012-mercedes-benz-e63-amg-1.pdf

I chose Car and Driver because they actually weigh their vehicles independently.

 

[Mars1965]

But the whole point of this thread was AMG being fake and M being real. AMG is like Audi; created by the marketing departments.

I don't care about the Maybach, Z8 or 8 series.

Agree for a certain degree on the Audi statement and AMG. Nevertheless I think you can't deny AMG is on the same level nowedays as BMW-M. Emotion, engeneering capacity etc. The base BMW versus MB stayes, but the efford for making the base special is in my opinion the same. AMG as well as BMW-M.

 

[Merc1]

Let me quote you again then:



BMW is not about to compete with it, they already do with the M760Li.

Do you even know what you're talking about anymore? You're confused. Sorry.

M