Vs BMW M vs MB AMG (posts moved from other threads)

[Giannis]

What was thé original thread please ?

http://www.germancarforum.com/threa...the-2016-mondial-de-lautomobiles-paris.56146/

 

[Merc1]

I would not write off the M760Li yet. Apparently its phenomenal, some who are familiar with the car state its the best V12 in its class.
View attachment 384360

Oh yes for once I agree with you, I'd have one for sure, buy why not an actual M7? I'd like to see BMW assert themselves in this class and kick sand in the grille of the S65 and the S8 Plus. The M760Li isn't enough IMO. M7 and call it a day. It isn't sacrilege if you're doing M SUVs.

M

 

[Merc1]

Both BMW and MB are milking their performance badges to the maximum, AMG Van posted above is just horrid for the performance sub brand reputation IMO. Rather than AMG package, they should have given it the AMG look and called it a V class Sports. Why both MB and BMW, after going so downmarket with their names, are also doing the same to their high performance sub brands. How many AMG branded Vans are sold? Are the numbers big enough to downgrade the brand like this?

However, MB with AMG is also giving the market exclusive cars like the SLS, GT and the upcoming hypercar. BMW needs a M1. It was the original M1 that made the M badge so desirable in the first place.

I agree, all the non-true AMG cars should have remained AMG Sport with 3 digits in their model name. A C43 or E43 is not a true AMG IMO.

M

 

[Merc1]

The AMG badge is milked by Mercedes.

Every model, except for the b class has an AMG variant, even a transversely mounted 2.0 little hatch haha!

Just like M is on a SUV with turbos and AWD. Neither is innocent of whoring out their performance brands.

M

 

[hovabongZA]

Oh yes for once I agree with you, I'd have one for sure, buy why not an actual M7? I'd like to see BMW assert themselves in this class and kick sand in the grille of the S65 and the S8 Plus. The M760Li isn't enough IMO. M7 and call it a day. It isn't sacrilege if you're doing M SUVs.

M

I have no doubt that the M760li will be more than enough to compete with the S65 and S8+ even as half bred M model the same way the M135/235i have been doing with A45 and S3's.

An M7 would have been great ,but as a performance model the M760li will just be just as dynamic if not better than those two cars particularly better than the S65 IMO.

 

[Matski]

It used to be naturally aspirated, light weight, and RWD. Not turbos, AWD and a pig of a SUV.

I think it's worth pointing out that nearly every single basic M model has been the heaviest variant of it's respective model series.

As for Turbo's and AWD, the former has been pretty much unavoidable, the latter probably does make the X5 and X6 M's better cars. Clinging to dogmas is foolish if they make you product worse.

What I find really interesting is that BMW won't build an M7, but they'll build M SUVs.

Well, they didn't until SUV's became such strong sellers, it was probably easier to make a business case for the X5M and X6M than it has been to do so with the 7-er, I'm sure they've sold more XM's than they would have done 7-er M's.

Also, Alpina has traditionally offered something at that end of the market with the E32 and E38 B12 models, and the E65 and F01 B7 models. This fact shouldn't be ignored as Alpina often produces the low volume niche models that BMW ignores or deems not viable. edit: Mercedes bought AMG to accomplish this, whilst nowadays BMW builds Alpinas on its own production line.

I also wouldn't get too hung up on the fact that the M760iL isn't just an M7. The South African market got the first gen 7-er with an engine based on the M88 engine from the M1, and it competed in Touring car series down there... you don't get much more 'motorsport' than that in a BMW, and they just called that a 745i.

 

[Merc1]

I have no doubt that the M760li will be more than enough to compete with the S65 and S8+ even as half bred M model the same way the M135/235i have been doing with A45 and S3's.

An M7 would have been great ,but as a performance model the M760li will just be just as dynamic if not better than those two cars particularly better than the S65 IMO.

All speculation actually and the S65 is due for a facelift with likely AWD and near 700hp so good luck with that.

M

 

[Merc1]

I think it's worth pointing out that nearly every single basic M model has been the heaviest variant of it's respective model series.

As for Turbo's and AWD, the former has been pretty much unavoidable, the latter probably does make the X5 and X6 M's better cars. Clinging to dogmas is foolish if they make you product worse.



Well, they didn't until SUV's became such strong sellers, it was probably easier to make a business case for the X5M and X6M than it has been to do so with the 7-er, I'm sure they've sold more XM's than they would have done 7-er M's.

Also, Alpina has traditionally offered something at that end of the market with the E32 and E38 B12 models, and the E65 and F01 B7 models. This fact shouldn't be ignored as Alpina often produces the low volume niche models that BMW ignores or deems not viable. edit: Mercedes bought AMG to accomplish this, whilst nowadays BMW builds Alpinas on its own production line.

I also wouldn't get too hung up on the fact that the M760iL isn't just an M7. The South African market got the first gen 7-er with an engine based on the M88 engine from the M1, and it competed in Touring car series down there... you don't get much more 'motorsport' than that in a BMW, and they just called that a 745i.

I knew all of this..... Doesn't matter what MB bought to do anything with, BMW BOUGHT Rolls to accomplish the status their brand couldn't. It goes both ways. Unlike Rolls though, AMG started with close ties to Mercedes. Rolls had NOTHING to do with BMW. Alpina is still not BMW so I have no idea why you mentioned them.

M

 

[Matski]

I knew all of this..... Doesn't matter what MB bought to do anything with, BMW BOUGHT Rolls to accomplish the status their brand couldn't. It goes both ways. Unlike Rolls though, AMG started with close ties to Mercedes. Rolls had NOTHING to do with BMW. Alpina is still not BMW so I have no idea why you mentioned them.

M

If you know all of this, why do you think M cars are light weight?

Why are you bring Rolls-Royce into a thread about M and AMG? Merc's FAILED attempt at reviving Maybach would be a better comparison for that one, but that's for a different thread.

What goes both ways?

Alpina's ARE built on BMW's production lines, they HAVE historically built cars in the niches BMW haven't.... you can fail to acknowledge this if you want, but if you don't see the link you are being deliberately ******, no surprise though.

Anyway...

#AMG4lyfe!

 

[Merc1]

If you know all of this, why do you think M cars are light weight?

Why are you bring Rolls-Royce into a thread about M and AMG? Merc's FAILED attempt at reviving Maybach would be a better comparison for that one, but that's for a different thread.

What goes both ways?

Alpina's ARE built on BMW's production lines, they HAVE historically built cars in the niches BMW haven't.... you can fail to acknowledge this if you want, but if you don't see the link you are being deliberately ******, no surprise though.

Anyway...

#AMG4lyfe!

View attachment 384420

View attachment 384421

So what, what does which assembly line have to do with anything? I don't get what you're point is. They're both tuners that either work with their respective brands or were bought by them. Who cares what niches they're building them in, that wasn't the point. The most certainly do now build them in the same 'niche' as BMW so there goes that.

You keep talking about what MB bought to do make things happen and I'm saying that BMW did the same thing because they failed at going upmarket each and every time, so they bought Rolls.

In case you didn't know Maybach is a success now.

I said that M cars used to be lightweight, but aren't now with SUVs in the mix.

M

 

[Zafiro]

The SUV that killed them all - BMW X5 Lemans .....

 

[hovabongZA]

All speculation actually and the S65 is due for a facelift with likely AWD and near 700hp so good luck with that.

M

Even that is speculation , but you can quote me on this when the reviews trickle in when it comes to performance , sportiness and dynamics it's going to be between the S8 and 760li...760li/S8>>>>>S65 all day long.

The S63 is probably a better sporting alternative to those cars than the S65. The S65 reminds me of the old AMG sticking the biggest engine in it and calling it a day.

 

[klier]

What an utterly pathetic thread.

Thanks mods, for making your own thing of it!

What was thé original thread please ?

The original thread had nothing to do with BMW. It's really sad.

 

[Matski]

So what, what does which assembly line have to do with anything? I don't get what you're point is. They're both tuners that either work with their respective brands or were bought by them. Who cares what niches they're building them in, that wasn't the point. The most certainly do now build them in the same 'niche' as BMW so there goes that.

To refresh your memory:

What I find really interesting is that BMW won't build an M7, but they'll build M SUVs.

You don't see how BMW's very tight relationship with Alpina (evidenced by the fact BMW now build them) would have any relevance to your original statement? I mean, you can't find it that "interesting" if your willingly discounting one of the potential primary reasons for BMW not building a high performance 7-er.

You keep talking about what MB bought to do make things happen and I'm saying that BMW did the same thing because they failed at going upmarket each and every time, so they bought Rolls.

BMW had never attempted to compete in the same league as Rolls-Royce, where are these attempts at going upmarket?

If you're basing your "each and every time" statement on the 8 series alone it hardly justifies your biased statement, and you'd still have to objectively prove it was a failure.

In case you didn't know Maybach is a success now.

It's also just a trim level for the S class now. Hardly what they were aiming for when they developed the 57 and 62.

I said that M cars used to be lightweight, but aren't now with SUVs in the mix.

Which isn't really factually correct, so again I'll just point out that M cars did not used to be "lightweight", they were nearly always heavier than lesser models in the same series. They may have been lighter than the competition in some cases, but that is still true today, even with the X5M and X6M. Cars in general have gotten heavier, that much is true.

 

[Merc1]

Even that is speculation , but you can quote me on this when the reviews trickle in when it comes to performance , sportiness and dynamics it's going to be between the S8 and 760li...760li/S8>>>>>S65 all day long.

The S63 is probably a better sporting alternative to those cars than the S65. The S65 reminds me of the old AMG sticking the biggest engine in it and calling it a day.

Well it isn't the old days at AMG, hasn't been for quite some time now. S63 or S65 doesn't matter which one to me.

M

 

[Merc1]

To refresh your memory:



You don't see how BMW's very tight relationship with Alpina (evidenced by the fact BMW now build them) would have any relevance to your original statement? I mean, you can't find it that "interesting" if your willingly discounting one of the potential primary reasons for BMW not building a high performance 7-er.

Again, what does this have to do with anything? Tight relationship, so what, Alpina is STILL NOT BMW. Not sure what you aren't getting here. I do find it interesting that they won't do an M7 when they build heavy suvs under the M label. Who cares about Alpina doing when BMW is also building a M760Li. It's all BS.

BMW had never attempted to compete in the same league as Rolls-Royce, where are these attempts at going upmarket?

If you're basing your "each and every time" statement on the 8 series alone it hardly justifies your biased statement, and you'd still have to objectively prove it was a failure.

No one said that they did, I said that they tried to go upmarket beyond the 7-Series and they failed. Both the Z8 and the 850i both failed. They were discontinued with no follow up. Cars that are a success get replacements and keep going. That proves that they didn't do squat comercially, though they were desireable.

It's also just a trim level for the S class now. Hardly what they were aiming for when they developed the 57 and 62.

I believe I just said what they were, and that formula has worked. So much so that now BMW is talking about a 9-Series.

Which isn't really factually correct, so again I'll just point out that M cars did not used to be "lightweight", they were nearly always heavier than lesser models in the same series. They may have been lighter than the competition in some cases, but that is still true today, even with the X5M and X6M. Cars in general have gotten heavier, that much is true

M emphasized lightweight in every single brochure I ever had and how they strived for it, but if you want to say it was all bs then that is fine too.

M

 

[Beemer B773ER]

Again, what does this have to do with anything? Tight relationship, so what, Alpina is STILL NOT BMW. Not sure what you aren't getting here. I do find it interesting that they won't do an M7 when they build heavy suvs under the M label. Who cares about Alpina doing when BMW is also building a M760Li. It's all BS.
M

 

[klier]

No one said that they did, I said that they tried to go upmarket beyond the 7-Series and they failed. Both the Z8 and the 850i both failed. They were discontinued with no follow up.

Then the SRL and SLS are failures too, because MB keeps scaling that stuff back.

Go take a look at the price of the new M760Li btw, and then talk about upmarket. With some decent options the car approaches a Bentley. A modern day 850i would not cost more than that.

I believe I just said what they were, and that formula has worked. So much so that now BMW is talking about a 9-Series.

So the 9er is going to be a trim level on the 7er?

Very interesting indeed.....

 

[Merc1]

Then the SRL and SLS are failures too, because MB keeps scaling that stuff back.

Go take a look at the price of the new M760Li btw, and then talk about upmarket. With some decent options the car approaches a Bentley. A modern day 850i would not cost more than that.



So the 9er is going to be a trim level on the 7er?

Very interesting indeed.....

Utter BS. No such car as a SRL. The SLR wasn't a success true, the SLS most definitely was, so simply don't know what you're talking about as usual. The SLS had a successor, and the AMG is even more popular. The 850i was killed off and never replaced. Ditto for the Z8.

Oh please more leather doesn't make the 7-Series more upmarket like a S600 Maybach is, sorry. It isn't in the market with a Bentley. A modern day 8-Series, uh would cost more than the 7-Series, that is why they're putting an 8 on it. Yeah a fully loaded M760Li might cost more than a theoretical base 8-Series, but that can be the case for a lot of cars, it doesn't change their hierarchy in their makers lineup. Nice try though, but not really.

M

 

[klier]

Utter BS. No such car as a SRL. The SLR wasn't a success true, the SLS most definitely was, so simply don't know what you're talking about as usual. The SLS had a successor, and the AMG is even more popular. The 850i was killed off and never replaced. Ditto for the Z8.

Oh please more leather doesn't make the 7-Series more upmarket like a S600 Maybach is, sorry. It isn't in the market with a Bentley. A modern day 8-Series, uh would cost more than the 7-Series, that is why they're putting an 8 on it. Yeah a fully loaded M760Li might cost more than a theoretical base 8-Series, but that can be the case for a lot of cars, it doesn't change their hierarchy in their makers lineup. Nice try though, but not really.
M

By taking minimal 100k off the price every time? That's not a successor, that's an entirely new model. An AMG costs as much as a base Carrera, a far cry from the SLS, and even further from SLR.

And as for the M760Li and S600 Maybach? Exactly the same price basket. Don't know what you're talking about with more leather.

Oh please more leather doesn't make the 7-Series more upmarket like a S600 Maybach is, sorry.

Just amazing!! What a quote!!!