5 Series (F10) BMW F10 5er - press drives & reviews


The BMW F10 is the sixth generation of the BMW 5 Series. Body styles: F10 (sedan), F11 (wagon), F07 (fastback), F18 (LWB sedan). Predecessor: 5 Series (E60), Successor: 5 Series (G30). Production: 2010–2017.
Well Klier... Hope you're not too disappointed?

(and please don't pretend that guy is biased just because he's not saying this is the best car ever to have seen the daylight since the creation of the car and for the next thousand years to come...);)

LOL Raoul, but it is!!!!!
 
jeez, for a car enthusiast, he just doesn't sound terribly enthusiastic.

EnI, I understand that the 5er is a significant part of BMW's profit, 50% as you said. But if BMW lost that indelible quality that makes it a BMW, why would people flock to the blue and white instead of the 3-pointed star, the 4 rings, the leaping cat, etc.? Yes, I understand it's not completely diluted, but if the ride is similar to the E, what's there to compel me to get the 5er? I guess, the Sportspack might remedy that and will be opted by those who want a harder-edged ride. For the record, I'd still would take the 5er over any car in the sub $90K category.

Also, I read that the cars on the platform for the 5er, including the 5GT and 7er, account for the 50% profit not just the 5er.
 
jeez, for a car enthusiast, he just doesn't sound terribly enthusiastic.

EnI, I understand that the 5er is a significant part of BMW's profit, 50% as you said. But if BMW lost that indelible quality that makes it a BMW, why would people flock to the blue and white instead of the 3-pointed star, the 4 rings, the leaping cat, etc.? Yes, I understand it's not completely diluted, but if the ride is similar to the E, what's there to compel me to get the 5er? I guess, the Sportspack might remedy that and will be opted by those who want a harder-edged ride. For the record, I'd still would take the 5er over any car in the sub $90K category.



Look. Today - cars in this segment are huge and electronics command all the vital systems & features in the car - it's more or less down to the software to fine-tune the car.

Today all the cars in this segment are very capable - either in driving dynamics or comfort. The differences are much smaller then eg. 20 or 30 years ago. As said: all models are converging to the center: the comfortable ones becoming more dynamic, the dynamic ones becoming more comfortable.

Also - eg. years ago sever oversteer was a notorious feature of BMW. Making the BMW cars fun to drive - and quite demanding regarding driver's involvement. But today in this segment (and others) the majority of customers do not want sever oversteer. If any. Therefore all the nanny devices to prevent the oversteer. Even more: now some BMW models are showing even some understeer in some extreme situations - since customers want so, not because BMW engineers failed to eliminate it. And not only newcomers -also the long-term BMW customers are changing preferences & habits.

There is still difference between the cars in the particular segment. But a tiny one. Most customers won't even bother & notice - and will go for, brand image, design, driver's position, etc.

Hardly anyone - at least in the executive segment - drives the cars at extreme limits eg. on a track. Less than 1 percent of all customers races their regular version stock executive sedans on track. Therefore there are Ms, AMGs etc - and even in this case to mere majority of customers it's more about the lip-stick than true (track) performance.

The limit is always set by the customers in a way. The company HAS TO address customer needs - not individual but cumulative. So, if a certain high percent of customers want something, it's hard to ignore that. Otherwise they will go shop elsewhere.

Also: having all the electronics on board - and all the different modes - it requires from the driver to know them better. When choose some mode - for what situation etc. It takes time to set your car perfectly to suit you best. Eg. choosing Comfort mode for twisty road is beyond stupid - yet journalist do that, and then they complain how soft the car is. But the Comfort mode is there for eg. Autobahn cruising. Just like Sport+ is not suitable for bumpy country roads or Autobahn drives. etc.

Conclusion: mind F10 is very capable. More than E60. In M5 case this will be even more evident. It's still the class leader in the driving dynamics. And will stay so even when new A6 arrives - since it will be more luxury / comfort oriented, while A7 will be more sporty. Sure the difference is smaller than 20 or 30 years ago. But still big enough to differ BMW from other brands. Yet mind this differentiation line is flexible - changing with time, and customer needs & habits. They are completely different than 20 or 30 years ago - when eg. comparing an average BMW customer now with the one in eg 1990. Light years apart.

Sure the ride in F10 is more refined - meaning a bit less raw. It follows the customer demand. To get more raw feeling choose 6er or M5. Also ... 6er CS ... when it arrives then the 5er setup will make a perfect sense. If wanting more comfort: go for 5er GT or 7er.

With new models coming core models are repositioned slightly: eg. making them less raw and more all-round: targeting the center. While niche cars addresses the poles: M5, 5er GT, 6er, M6, 6er CS etc.




Also, I read that the cars on the platform for the 5er, including the 5GT and 7er, account for the 50% profit not just the 5er.

Actually it's 5er platform - the current one - to be technically correct. So, E60, E61, E63 & E64. Making almost 50% profit (46% or something).

Since current platform is shared with all 5er models, all 6er models, all 7 models & the RR Ghost - I'm sure this platform is VERY profitable. Making way over 50% of all BMW automobile profit. :t-cheers:
 
With new models coming core models are repositioned slightly: eg. making them less raw and more all-round: targeting the center. While niche cars addresses the poles: M5, 5er GT, 6er, M6, 6er CS etc.

So, does this mean that the M5 will not be a heavy, dumbed down, soft, AMG replica with the ability to artificially seem sporty?

I hate all the anti-fun electronics, they make the driving experience resemble a ride on this one:



I'm contemplating an E92 M3, manual, with the standard chassis and 18" wheels.
 
Look. Today - cars in this segment are huge and electronics command all the vital systems & features in the car - it's more or less down to the software to fine-tune the car.

Today all the cars in this segment are very capable - either in driving dynamics or comfort. The differences are much smaller then eg. 20 or 30 years ago. As said: all models are converging to the center: the comfortable ones becoming more dynamic, the dynamic ones becoming more comfortable.

Also - eg. years ago sever oversteer was a notorious feature of BMW. Making the BMW cars fun to drive - and quite demanding regarding driver's involvement. But today in this segment (and others) the majority of customers do not want sever oversteer. If any. Therefore all the nanny devices to prevent the oversteer. Even more: now some BMW models are showing even some understeer in some extreme situations - since customers want so, not because BMW engineers failed to eliminate it. And not only newcomers -also the long-term BMW customers are changing preferences & habits.

There is still difference between the cars in the particular segment. But a tiny one. Most customers won't even bother & notice - and will go for, brand image, design, driver's position, etc.

Hardly anyone - at least in the executive segment - drives the cars at extreme limits eg. on a track. Less than 1 percent of all customers races their regular version stock executive sedans on track. Therefore there are Ms, AMGs etc - and even in this case to mere majority of customers it's more about the lip-stick than true (track) performance.

The limit is always set by the customers in a way. The company HAS TO address customer needs - not individual but cumulative. So, if a certain high percent of customers want something, it's hard to ignore that. Otherwise they will go shop elsewhere.

Also: having all the electronics on board - and all the different modes - it requires from the driver to know them better. When choose some mode - for what situation etc. It takes time to set your car perfectly to suit you best. Eg. choosing Comfort mode for twisty road is beyond stupid - yet journalist do that, and then they complain how soft the car is. But the Comfort mode is there for eg. Autobahn cruising. Just like Sport+ is not suitable for bumpy country roads or Autobahn drives. etc.

Conclusion: mind F10 is very capable. More than E60. In M5 case this will be even more evident. It's still the class leader in the driving dynamics. And will stay so even when new A6 arrives - since it will be more luxury / comfort oriented, while A7 will be more sporty. Sure the difference is smaller than 20 or 30 years ago. But still big enough to differ BMW from other brands. Yet mind this differentiation line is flexible - changing with time, and customer needs & habits. They are completely different than 20 or 30 years ago - when eg. comparing an average BMW customer now with the one in eg 1990. Light years apart.

Sure the ride in F10 is more refined - meaning a bit less raw. It follows the customer demand. To get more raw feeling choose 6er or M5. Also ... 6er CS ... when it arrives then the 5er setup will make a perfect sense. If wanting more comfort: go for 5er GT or 7er.

With new models coming core models are repositioned slightly: eg. making them less raw and more all-round: targeting the center. While niche cars addresses the poles: M5, 5er GT, 6er, M6, 6er CS etc.






Actually it's 5er platform - the current one - to be technically correct. So, E60, E61, E63 & E64. Making almost 50% profit (46% or something).

Since current platform is shared with all 5er models, all 6er models, all 7 models & the RR Ghost - I'm sure this platform is VERY profitable. Making way over 50% of all BMW automobile profit. :t-cheers:

Yeah, cars are becoming increasingly similar, increasingly complicated, increasingly annoying, increasingly nannying.

What a nice progress.:t-banghea

I hate all those digitalized, all-beeping, buttons-laden pieces of mobile software that we now call cars. The drivetrains and motors are so fantastic in those modern cars, but the incredible weight and useless electronic gizmos are just ruining them completely.

Why the hell having 4 screens in teh dash, 100 buttons plus iDrive, billions of totally useless features that nobody actually uses? Is it absolutely vital to be able to control the amount of time that the follow-me-home stays lit or the way the electric boot moves? is it necessary to have a scrren in the gauges to say a million of things, while you don't even have a temperature gauge?
 
So, does this mean that the M5 will not be a heavy, dumbed down, soft, AMG replica with the ability to artificially seem sporty?


The new M5 will be more a Dr. Jekyll / Mr Hyde car persona. :D Much more tame & driver + passenger friendly for daily driving, while even more capable and fun to drive on a track. Sure it will be more refined than the current car.

I have no doubt journalists will be full of rage & criticism about new M5 is going tame & boring etc. Just like they were in E92 M3 case in the initial reviews. A techno-overkill instead of raw car. Since many of them think we are still deep in 80s or 90s, and everything should be compared to the original Ms.

Same case will be with the M6.

But to shut them up - they will be able to experience M3 GTS, and the "M1" soon: much more hard-core BMW cars. And more raw & "back-to-the-roots".

As said: there will be much more precise marketing from now on. It will be more clear what are Performance Parts, what M pack, what is models, what M models and what special models like GTS or CSL - and to whom they cater to.

Today the intra-model differentiation is bigger then ever before. Not to mention the inter-model differentiation. And there is plenty of choices - so a customer WILL HAVE to do a bit more to check & drive the cars to pick the one that suits him / her best.




I hate all the anti-fun electronics, they make the driving experience resemble a ride on this one:

I do too. But customer need are changing - they want idiot-proof solutions. Therefore all nannies. And if customers are not active in this respect, their governments & legislators are - creating standards, requirements, regulations concerning safety and eg. environment. Eg. commanding standard ESP & ABS, bigger mirrors, stiffer passenger cells, softer crash zones etc

In the future cars without all the nanny systems won't even be street legal!


Yeah, cars are becoming increasingly similar, increasingly complicated, increasingly annoying, increasingly nannying.

What a nice progress.

I hate all those digitalized, all-beeping, buttons-laden pieces of mobile software that we now call cars.

Yep, that's the "progress". And don't be shocked when in 30 to 50 years cars will automatically adjust the speed to speed limits, or drive in homogeneous line on highways - with super active cruise controls: making highway drive like a driving on railway. With electric cars such "toys" will be even easier to implement.

And IMO the future of driving is automated systems - auto-pilots. And manual overdrive will be possible in extreme situations only, or when you'll officially accept ALL the liabilities & responsibilities by digitally signing an e-paper etc. :D And with more & more traffic - especially in the large cities - this is an inevitable way to go.


"Fun-to-drive" will be changed into "fun-to-be-driven-in". ;) Eg. simulating sporty drive at low speeds, hehehe. :D Eg. with shaking seats, reproduced ICE NA engine & wind noise in the cabin, etc. :D

BMW. Sheer Driving Simulation Pleasure.

or

BMW. The ultimate driving simulation machine.


:D :D :D
 
Also: having all the electronics on board - and all the different modes - it requires from the driver to know them better. When choose some mode - for what situation etc. It takes time to set your car perfectly to suit you best. Eg. choosing Comfort mode for twisty road is beyond stupid - yet journalist do that, and then they complain how soft the car is. But the Comfort mode is there for eg. Autobahn cruising. Just like Sport+ is not suitable for bumpy country roads or Autobahn drives. etc.

This might sound reasonable, but it is wrong.
I talked to Jos van As in Portugal who is responsible for all the suspension work and he told me that it makes absolutely no difference in which mode you are as soon as you are cornering hard. Due to safety reasons it would be stupid to give the driver less ability to dodge an obstacle just because he is in comfort mode. The setup actually is adapted to every corner and the comfort setting vs. the sport+ setting is mainly different on straight roads and because sport+ activates DTC and not DSC. We actually tried it in Estoril and there was no difference in cornering when going in Comfort or in Sport+, at least nothing you could feel. So you get all the safety and driving dynamics when needed, even in comfort mode. When driving across bumpy roads the car is smooth, but when you want the car to corner very hard it will do just that, you can not get the feeling of driving a Mercedes in the new 5-series when you are cornering hard, only on the straights or when you are cornering way below the limit of the car like most people do in everyday driving.
 
So how come you've had the privilege to see the car already?? And where did you see it?

As for the agressive looks: the F10 looks already more agressive than the LCI E60. They somehow managed to make that car look like it's smiling and happy compared to the original E60. F10 feels cat like. Ready to jump on the back of an Impala.
 
new 5

Eni > you are right to say that the new 5 will be find for customer taste ... if someone give me it's email i will send him 3-4 pics I've take from my iphone ... because i cannot download them right now :)
 
arnoudlubbe@hotmail.com

I'll host them :)







289bc26910aaa5d9e79e2acca70d48f3.webp
 
EnI said:
I do too. But customer need are changing - they want idiot-proof solutions. Therefore all nannies. And if customers are not active in this respect, their governments & legislators are - creating standards, requirements, regulations concerning safety and eg. environment. Eg. commanding standard ESP & ABS, bigger mirrors, stiffer passenger cells, softer crash zones etc

In the future cars without all the nanny systems won't even be street legal!

Oh, the car electronics! For the last 4-5 years I drive two cars each day, that have 15 years difference. One from 1990 and one from 2005. And the differences are huge!

The first difference is in the overall feel. In older cars, that everything is mechanical, you feel your hands and feet are manually connected to every nut and bolt in the car. You can feel almost anything with a mechanical steering wheel, and you have total control with a mechanical gas pedal. You can enjoy heel'n'toe and synchronized downshifts, and fantastic throttle response.

Yet, in modern cars with hydraulic or electric steering and drive-by-wire gas pedals, everything feels distant. Everything. You get more noise from the tyres or the wind, you don't feel everything from the road, you are more comfortable with the engine, since with drive-by-wire the engine is smoother. The electronics don't let the wheels spin, nor the tail go out. And even when you turn them off, they will go on, if you press the car very hard.

In what do you feel more confident and in what more safe?

Sure, modern cars, despite the distant feel, they feel much more safer. You can feel the weight, the thickness and weight of the doors, the vault-like noise they make when they close, all the airbags and crumble-zones. Yes, you feel safe, but are you more confident?

I am not. I know that the electronics are there and in the very last momment they will kick in and save the day. This make me much less carefull and relaxed when I drive the 2005 car. And more idiotic-prone as well. I have been through many occassions, that I was over-optimistic about the car's capabilities, and nearly killed myself.

On the other hand, with the 1990 car, even though it's been through a lot, and I mean, a LOT, I am more confident. I have better control of the gas, better steering feel, and with the new springs (yes, the Clio is now on harder springs), I enjoy it much more than before.

Not to mention, that the security feel of modern cars, allows the driver to increase his average speed, while the "fear" that comes from the fantastic mechanical feel, of most older cars, makes you more cautious, but give you ten times more fun.


So, in the end, the electronic nannies are there to take all the fun out of a car?

No, they are there to make your everyday life easier. The Anti-spin system works great with a turbo car, and doesn't allow the wheels to spin, when you press it a little more. The ESP is there to help you if you go faster on a corner than you should. They make your everyday life easier and safer, but less fun.

The question is, whether you want to have fun or be safe.
The answer is up to each individual's preferences.

Personally, I want to be safe in my everyday life. But if the "ESP off" button, really turned off all the electronic nannies, I'd be gratefull. I want to experience some lift-off oversteer every now and then, but those damn swedes don't let me have the fun I want. Too much wheel spin, or too much oversteer turns the electronics on, and they take all the fun from you.

So, when I really want to have fun, I drive the old car. When I want to feel safe when going to work, I drive the bloody Volvo. My son will also get a Volvo. But when his balls grow bigger, I'll buy him and E30.

:D
 
20th March here in Sweden they will have big opening. New 5-series and facelifted E92. I'm going.....
 
The only thing I don't like is all those folds in the hood. Way too busy.

M
 
The only thing I don't like is all those folds in the hood. Way too busy.

M

Either that or the whole hood would have to be higher or bulgy - since EU pedestrian safety standards require a certain amount of space between the softer surface and the hard parts under the hood (eg. struts, engine block etc). Therefore the folds have a function, and are not just decorative. Check the latest cars - most of them have folds or bulges above struts & engine block. Or the entire hood sits higher - and then the surface can be flat.

Form follow function.

:t-cheers:

It was explain many times by engineers & designers why such hood designs. Sure the fold & bulge interpretations can be different from design to design.
 
EnI I know this already, I've already mentioned that several times about why hoods like the way they do when others ask the same question.

The thing is I didn't ask you why, I just simply said I didn't like it.

A higher hood would have looked better IMO than a bunch of creases and folds everywhere.


M
 

BMW

Bayerische Motoren Werke AG, abbreviated as BMW is a German multinational manufacturer of luxury vehicles and motorcycles headquartered in Munich, Bavaria, Germany. The company was founded in 1916 as a manufacturer of aircraft engines, which it produced from 1917 to 1918 and again from 1933 to 1945.
Official website: BMW (Global), BMW (USA)

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