7 Series (G11) BMW 7-Series (G11/12) reviews, test-drives, etc.

[mdartisian]

Ok ile sum it up to you shortly.
I do not belive BMW has the brand image to sell extremely expensive cars, this has been proven time and time again.
I belive that BMWs board knows this, and do not waste huge amounts of money into cars like that.
The 7er is tradition and a necessary evil, but you do not see them venturing into high end cars (sportscars and luxury) at all.
I belive that they need to sacrifice their youthful image in order to sell more cars at such price points, and they really do not need to do that, as their brand image is great in other segments and makes them alot of money.

I now hope this is clear and calm enough for you.

BMW definitely has the brand image to sell high end vehicles. Marketing has a lot to do with why people accept the Maybach S class as a true Bentley/RR competitor, when it is and isn't at the same time. From an engineering standpoint, anything MB can do BMW and Audi can do too. Actually, the German trio all help each other image wise. When one goes into a higher segment or establishes a new one, there is an expectation for the other two to respond. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, but they can...

If BMW didn't stop FWD Active tourers from marring their youthful image, they certainly won't stop their high end products from getting in the way of that now that they've decided to build high end luxury BMW's. It'll do wonders for the overall brand image tbh. The GKL BMW's are needed.

 

[mercpassion]

BMW definitely has the brand image to sell high end vehicles. Marketing has a lot to do with why people accept the Maybach S class as a true Bentley/RR competitor, when it is and isn't at the same time. From an engineering standpoint, anything MB can do BMW and Audi can do too. Actually, the German trio all help each other image wise. When one goes into a higher segment or establishes a new one, there is an expectation for the other two to respond. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, but they can...

If BMW didn't stop FWD Active tourers from marring their youthful image, they certainly won't stop their high end products from getting in the way of that now that they've decided to build high end luxury BMW's. It'll do wonders for the overall brand image tbh. The GKL BMW's are needed.

All to their own opinion, however I don't think many would agree that BMW has the brand image to do high-end cars, no matter what anyone says, it just doesn't work.

In terms of tech, even until today MB are clearly leading BMW and Audi in almost every area, bar some silly gimmicks like tablets or gesture control etc, so why cannot BMW or Audi pull of as many innovations as MB if they are so capable??

I just hope this 9 series business does not come to fruition, imo, it is just plain stupid..

 

[LaArtist]

BMW definitely has the brand image to sell high end vehicles. Marketing has a lot to do with why people accept the Maybach S class as a true Bentley/RR competitor, when it is and isn't at the same time. From an engineering standpoint, anything MB can do BMW and Audi can do too. Actually, the German trio all help each other image wise. When one goes into a higher segment or establishes a new one, there is an expectation for the other two to respond. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, but they can...

If BMW didn't stop FWD Active tourers from marring their youthful image, they certainly won't stop their high end products from getting in the way of that now that they've decided to build high end luxury BMW's. It'll do wonders for the overall brand image tbh. The GKL BMW's are needed.

Do they? what do you mean by sell? like a couple hundred or thousand? or are you talking about market dominance ( which im talking about)
How well has the Z8,8 series, 6er and 7er sold really?
We can agree on the fact that there is no doubt in this world that BMW can make a stellar luxury car, also there is no doubt they can make a great supercar.
Now given that, let's reverse the debate.
You answer me this: Why don't they?
I have a theory of why they don't, like i said before, i think their brand suffers above a certain price point, so it makes no business sense for them to venture into costly halo projects, when they can dump that money into proven formulas like SUVs and such.

What's your take on it? ( anyone feel free to put down your theory)

 

[mdartisian]

@LaArtist You know, the same brand that had trouble selling Maybach is enjoying much success with it by switching the formula. Too many factors involved in whether a vehicle is successful or not so, let's steer clear of that topic being that we know nothing of the GKL products besides the fact that they're coming. BMW has found a business case for high end models now and like you said, they can make a stellar luxury car so if they focus on LUXURY, they'll sell it. There is a reason Rolls Royce and Bentley sell luxury.

See this?
Luxury

Luxury

Luxury

They all can do it.

All to their own opinion, however I don't think many would agree that BMW has the brand image to do high-end cars, no matter what anyone says, it just doesn't work.
I just hope this 9 series business does not come to fruition, imo, it is just plain stupid..

 

[LaArtist]

@LaArtist You know, the same brand that had trouble selling Maybach is enjoying much success with it by switching the formula. Too many factors involved in whether a vehicle is successful or not so, let's steer clear of that topic being that we know nothing of the GKL products besides the fact that they're coming. BMW has found a business case for high end models now and like you said, they can make a stellar luxury car so if they focus on LUXURY, they'll sell it. There is a reason Rolls Royce and Bentley sell luxury.

See this?
Luxury

Luxury

Luxury

They all can do it.

if they make them, it will be very interesting to see if they fly or fail as has been the case in the past. the future (2020) will tell.

 

[klier]

What's up with off topc nonsense by MB fanboys here? Can some mods take control??

All to their own opinion, however I don't think many would agree that BMW has the brand image to do high-end cars, no matter what anyone says, it just doesn't work.

In terms of tech, even until today MB are clearly leading BMW and Audi in almost every area, bar some silly gimmicks like tablets or gesture control etc, so why cannot BMW or Audi pull of as many innovations as MB if they are so capable??

I just hope this 9 series business does not come to fruition, imo, it is just plain stupid..

Retarded comments are what's stupid. Stop making a fool out of yourself.

 

[Mick Briesgau]

I'm on my way collecting more impressions of this car. Review after the weekend; busy driving

 

[klier]

I'll be waiting for you to arrive in The Hague later today, so we can have some quality time together in the 7er.

Where do we meet?

 

[Matski]

Do they? what do you mean by sell? like a couple hundred or thousand? or are you talking about market dominance ( which im talking about)
How well has the Z8,8 series, 6er and 7er sold really?

I personally don't think market dominance is a pre-requisite for determining if a brand can sustain itself in any given segment. That would promote a lack of choice, and I can't help but feel that there'll always be an element of desirability provided by something being less common than the competition. Some people like to stand out a little from their peers and competitors.

As for the Z8, and E31, well, the Z8 was limited production only so that's no yardstick for success. The E31 did expose some mis-judgement on BMW's behalf (IMHO), but ultimately it took a big hit because of the recession at the time - personally I think BMW subsequently canning the Cabrio and the 830Ci was a mistake for the brand - even if not for the balance sheet.

As for the 6-er and 7-er, they sell what they sell, but I think anyone would be hard pressed to make an argument that BMW would be better off without them.

We can agree on the fact that there is no doubt in this world that BMW can make a stellar luxury car, also there is no doubt they can make a great supercar.
Now given that, let's reverse the debate.
You answer me this: Why don't they?
I have a theory of why they don't, like i said before, i think their brand suffers above a certain price point, so it makes no business sense for them to venture into costly halo projects, when they can dump that money into proven formulas like SUVs and such.

What's your take on it? ( anyone feel free to put down your theory)

I agree that both Mercedes and BMW have the ability to put cars out at the top level. To a point Audi does too - probably moreso from an engineering point of view, given VW's other brands... but at the same time, this is their achilles heal, they'll never achieve what they could at the top end, because Porsche, Lamborghini, Bentley and perhaps even Bugatti will take precidence.

As for why BMW traditionally haven't, I believe it's simply because of a lack of commitment, or resolve. They always play it too cautiously, I get the impression they spend too long ummm-ing and ahhh-ing over whether or not there is a business case, and eventually talk themselves out of doing it, or by the time they do, the world has changed, and it gets canned.

The M1 is remembered as a great product, but it was born out a colossal cock-up for the company, they'd have never okay'd it if they'd have known the problems they were going to have - but look at it now, they promote it as an icon and it adds value to the brand. They could have green-lit the M8, they could have green-lit the CS Concept, they could have green-lit the previous generation X7 that's been mentioned, they could've green-lit a V16 luxury saloon decades ago - and god knows how many other prototypes and studies that have never been by the public - but they don't! It's like they get to the last stage, and then change their minds.

They have to factor in how cars will be remembered, not just how they will affect the balance sheet - because that has a value to the brand that I don't think the bean-counters understand. And if there is a problem with BMW's image at this price range, it's not going to change until they bite the bullet and go for it.

I love BMW dearly, and I do get the phrase "business case", I really do... but it's bloody frustrating sometimes.

 

[mercpassion]

@LaArtist You know, the same brand that had trouble selling Maybach is enjoying much success with it by switching the formula. Too many factors involved in whether a vehicle is successful or not so, let's steer clear of that topic being that we know nothing of the GKL products besides the fact that they're coming. BMW has found a business case for high end models now and like you said, they can make a stellar luxury car so if they focus on LUXURY, they'll sell it. There is a reason Rolls Royce and Bentley sell luxury.

See this?
Luxury

Luxury

Luxury

They all can do it.

What's up with off topc nonsense by MB fanboys here? Can some mods take control??



Retarded comments are what's stupid. Stop making a fool out of yourself.

Yes I am humbly sorry for going off topic and understand that it is unnecessary. At the same time, I also apologise to BMW fanboys, who avoid to hear a simple opinion against their beloved brand, and instead calling it retarded is what I think is unacceptable...

 

[Donnalee]

The gesture control is stupid

 

[klier]

Yes I am humbly sorry for going off topic and understand that it is unnecessary. At the same time, I also apologise to BMW fanboys, who avoid to hear a simple opinion against their beloved brand, and instead calling it retarded is what I think is unacceptable...

Fair enough. I should have called it a silly comment. And it can be your opinion, but it's silly either way.

 

[mercpassion]

Fair enough. I should have called it a silly comment. And it can be your opinion, but it's silly either way.

OK, that's that then..

 

[LaArtist]

I personally don't think market dominance is a pre-requisite for determining if a brand can sustain itself in any given segment. That would promote a lack of choice, and I can't help but feel that there'll always be an element of desirability provided by something being less common than the competition. Some people like to stand out a little from their peers and competitors.

As for the Z8, and E31, well, the Z8 was limited production only so that's no yardstick for success. The E31 did expose some mis-judgement on BMW's behalf (IMHO), but ultimately it took a big hit because of the recession at the time - personally I think BMW subsequently canning the Cabrio and the 830Ci was a mistake for the brand - even if not for the balance sheet.

As for the 6-er and 7-er, they sell what they sell, but I think anyone would be hard pressed to make an argument that BMW would be better off without them.



I agree that both Mercedes and BMW have the ability to put cars out at the top level. To a point Audi does too - probably moreso from an engineering point of view, given VW's other brands... but at the same time, this is their achilles heal, they'll never achieve what they could at the top end, because Porsche, Lamborghini, Bentley and perhaps even Bugatti will take precidence.

As for why BMW traditionally haven't, I believe it's simply because of a lack of commitment, or resolve. They always play it too cautiously, I get the impression they spend too long ummm-ing and ahhh-ing over whether or not there is a business case, and eventually talk themselves out of doing it, or by the time they do, the world has changed, and it gets canned.

The M1 is remembered as a great product, but it was born out a colossal cock-up for the company, they'd have never okay'd it if they'd have known the problems they were going to have - but look at it now, they promote it as an icon and it adds value to the brand. They could have green-lit the M8, they could have green-lit the CS Concept, they could have green-lit the previous generation X7 that's been mentioned, they could've green-lit a V16 luxury saloon decades ago - and god knows how many other prototypes and studies that have never been by the public - but they don't! It's like they get to the last stage, and then change their minds.

They have to factor in how cars will be remembered, not just how they will affect the balance sheet - because that has a value to the brand that I don't think the bean-counters understand. And if there is a problem with BMW's image at this price range, it's not going to change until they bite the bullet and go for it.

I love BMW dearly, and I do get the phrase "business case", I really do... but it's bloody frustrating sometimes.

Finally someone willing to engage in a grown up fashion, kudos for that first of all.

Like you say market dominance is not a must, i appreciate the options BMW gives customers in said segments, they should not at all stop making these cars. They are needed and they turn a decent profit so good on them. What my issue is, is the fans that think that they dominate in every segment they enter, and they don't simply!
On the other hand they could, but that would need a totalt commitment to these segments, but its not in their interest obviously, they are busy dominating other segments.
Like MB or any other company you can not be all conquering, some segments fit the brand image and know how better, and these upper segments do not fit BMWs image as well as other segments ( like the small sedan segment where they dominate).

This lack of commitment that you are talking about, and also have show with so many examples of canned projects, my theory is that its all up to it not making business sense to the board.
Due to the reason that there is an apprehension towards halo projects from BMW HQ, maybe cause they got burned a few times, maybe cause of not having the guts.

I mean its a awefully boring company board wise, they are very cautious, and they have an enormous wealth of money, know how and everything else needed to make something high end fly.

Compared to MB who jump into new segments and release halo project after halo project it is a stark contrast.
Now all of MBs ventures do not bare fruit.
Here are some that did: CLS, ML, B class, AMG supercars and so on..
And some that did not: Shooting brakes, R class, Maybach brand and the list goes on.

Then there are cars like the SLR, SLR Sterling moss ( i mean who the hell green lights something like that, its like we are in the board, hence it being so kick ass), Black series cars..

TBH they give the people what they want and then some. BMW are very different.

I wish they would take more chances, as you said it will not change until they bite the bullet, and they have the resources to bite the bullet, if it fails than so what, and if it flies, well everything from a 1 series up will get a lift, cause people want to be associated with a brand that puts out dream cars. In a way i think they have more to gain than to loose.

I would not write walls of text about this if i didn't care about BMW, i feel your frustration. I want to see them compete in these segments, historically my fav BMWs has always been the extravagant ones, they do them so well, even if the market shuns them.
Love cars like the 7er, 6er .8er, Z8 all of them.. in their era they always had some kind of magic.

Or you can chalk it all up to a retarded post and call it trolling.

PS
It is my fault though, as i troll the BMW fans alot, so in instances like this i don't get taken seriously.
But i just can't give it up, it is my favourite hobby to get on the nerves of people like ENI, Klier and Scott..
If that means its impossible for me to carry on a discussion about BMW in a grown up manner, then so be it.. the gain is to SWEET

 

[Betty Swollocks]

I think the constant use of the word "retarded" is childish and immature.

 

[Donnalee]

I do like how this car has upgraded options in the backseat to rival S class and Even maybachs.

 

[klier]

Can a mod please delete the off topic stuff?

 

[SCOTT27]

The gesture control is stupid

Gesture Control will be on all cars within ten years. Mobile phones,Televisions and tablets sooner.

 

[mdartisian]

@Matski great post.

@mercpassion I'll admit, I didn't hear the point you may have been trying to communicate through all your criticisms.

 

[Matski]

Finally someone willing to engage in a grown up fashion, kudos for that first of all.

Like you say market dominance is not a must, i appreciate the options BMW gives customers in said segments, they should not at all stop making these cars. They are needed and they turn a decent profit so good on them. What my issue is, is the fans that think that they dominate in every segment they enter, and they don't simply!
On the other hand they could, but that would need a totalt commitment to these segments, but its not in their interest obviously, they are busy dominating other segments.
Like MB or any other company you can not be all conquering, some segments fit the brand image and know how better, and these upper segments do not fit BMWs image as well as other segments ( like the small sedan segment where they dominate).

This lack of commitment that you are talking about, and also have show with so many examples of canned projects, my theory is that its all up to it not making business sense to the board.
Due to the reason that there is an apprehension towards halo projects from BMW HQ, maybe cause they got burned a few times, maybe cause of not having the guts.

I mean its a awefully boring company board wise, they are very cautious, and they have an enormous wealth of money, know how and everything else needed to make something high end fly.

Compared to MB who jump into new segments and release halo project after halo project it is a stark contrast.
Now all of MBs ventures do not bare fruit.
Here are some that did: CLS, ML, B class, AMG supercars and so on..
And some that did not: Shooting brakes, R class, Maybach brand and the list goes on.

Then there are cars like the SLR, SLR Sterling moss ( i mean who the hell green lights something like that, its like we are in the board, hence it being so kick ass), Black series cars..

TBH they give the people what they want and then some. BMW are very different.

I wish they would take more chances, as you said it will not change until they bite the bullet, and they have the resources to bite the bullet, if it fails than so what, and if it flies, well everything from a 1 series up will get a lift, cause people want to be associated with a brand that puts out dream cars. In a way i think they have more to gain than to loose.

I would not write walls of text about this if i didn't care about BMW, i feel your frustration. I want to see them compete in these segments, historically my fav BMWs has always been the extravagant ones, they do them so well, even if the market shuns them.
Love cars like the 7er, 6er .8er, Z8 all of them.. in their era they always had some kind of magic.

Or you can chalk it all up to a retarded post and call it trolling.

PS
It is my fault though, as i troll the BMW fans alot, so in instances like this i don't get taken seriously.
But i just can't give it up, it is my favourite hobby to get on the nerves of people like ENI, Klier and Scott..
If that means its impossible for me to carry on a discussion about BMW in a grown up manner, then so be it.. the gain is to SWEET

I won't give it another wall of text, as this isn't the best thread for it... but I agree with a lot of what you said. The decision making process at Mercedes is very different to that at BMW. That's no criticism of either, and given the different corporate structure, I don't even think it's a fair comparison... but it is what it is... I welcome the Grand Class (GKL), just as I welcome the Under Class (UKL)

Personally, my growing affection for Mercedes doesn't come from those products they do better than BMW, it comes from those that they've got the balls to put out there... the 6×6 AMG is one of my top 6 vehicles, I love Mercedes for that.. . I hate the AMG GT... looks awful to me... but the McMerc and the 722, and the McMercSSM.. I like those too, and even hand made (insignificant) components for many of them...

Anyway..

In 50 years time, I wonder how we will look back on the decisions of these brands now.