Poll BMW G11/12 7-Series Vs. Mercedes-Benz W222 S-class Photo Comparison
- Thread starter Mr. Mercedes
- Start date
No. You have to be either a BMW or MB fanboy. There is no grey area in between. And whichever side you choose, that automatically renders the other side inferior.
How long have you been on this forum?
Mr Robert
Kraftwagen König
Oh, a while... rather whilish...
slicknick
Driving Dynamics Pro
Betting 100 bucks that it will at least have that giant touchscreen first featured on the 918 Spyder
Mr. Mercedes
Premium
Not really any problem with the exterior.
The interior is where I personally have a few 'issues'
Of course I am being very critical (I love the S class) ......but only because the S class is the vehicle that sets the standard for all others in the industry.
I really feel the problem stems from the desire to adopt cutting-edge design ideas but at the same time try to keep it appealing to conservative (and traditional) presumptions of what a luxury car interior should be. So there are some strange compromises (it's the only way I can describe it) such as the completely odd diamond-patterned perforated leather pieces applied to door panels and dashboard. This diamond pattern bears no relation to the Aqua-dynamic theme at all (such as the organic patterns stitched on the seats and the dynamic shapes of the wood parts) .......the perforated diamond pattern actually has a vaguely Retro 1950s feel about it.
The Maybach version emphasises this strange hybrid of styling themes ....the quilted and buttoned seats with throw cushions certainly looks very comfortable ......but barely relates to the beautiful high-tech details like the metallic switches. The doorhandles, speakers, and seat controls on the doors are certainly highlights in the cabin. The curvaceous side panels that flow into the doors are not well resolved in my opinion ......and the refrigerator compartment is in no way pretty. Once again the quilted leather pieces applied to the centre console lack substance with their only real purpose being to continue the diamond-pattern throughout the cabin.
When I look at the magnificent interior of Coupé concept, it becomes very clear to me that some of these styling decisions were compromises.
The designers who created this brilliant (concept) interior were obviously forced to make compromises for production interiors ....falling back on the usual clichés of luxury car interior design.
Note, for instance, there is no wood in this interior. This is what 21st century high-tech luxury is supposed to look like!
Having said that, the production S class Coupé is still a superb car inside and out.
If I was to be picky, I would say I am still not a fan of the Bentley-style air vents or the awkward (and unnecessary) wood sections on the rear side panels.
But this is a beautiful interior no doubt about it.
The Bentley GT still has more beautiful seats .....but the S class Coupé's dashboard is fantastic.
I get your point Rob. I really do. But why criticise MB when you know the reason for the 'compromises'? You said it yourself, they have to bear in mind the conservative and traditional presumptions of luxury. This is particularly important given the demographic of the buyer in this class. So yes while it would be great to see interiors closer to the concepts, Mercedes has done a damn fine job of pushing the design envelope with the 'aqua dynamic' forms and blending these with more traditional interpretations of luxury. For example, the shape of the wooden appliqués on the coupes front doors are just gorgeous and not seen anywhere else in the industry.
What cutting edge design idiom is the 7-series pushing? I'm no expert on these things, but as far as I can see, none really. It's a blinged up version of the dashboard structure adopted on 90% of their vehicle line up. It has almost none of the cutting edge thinking of BMW's luxury concepts.
SDNR
Kraftwagen König
No need to get upset Mohammed ....you take my critiques too personally
I am tough on Mercedes designers and engineers because I expect the best from them. Of course I appreciate the quality of the S class interior.....I am only expressing opinions based on my personal tastes (like everyone else) ....and IMO the Maybach interior may be very comfortable but it lacks the Mulsanne's class ....but I doubt that will even be noticed by the vast majority of buyers. However, I would choose the Maybach over the Ghost. The S Class Coupé is a truly special car ....I have made my feelings about it very clear.
klier
Premium
It's not my taste, but there is no denying the brilliance of the S class interior. Fit, finish and quality are on the highest possible level. BMW can only match it and not surpass it in this price range.
And I am also aware the S600 Maybach drives better than the Phantom. Sure a Phantom is not new anymore, but is also handmade and 3 times as expensive. MB did an excellent job, but BMW is my thing, can't help it. Even when the S class ends up being the better car, I'd still pick a 7er. It's beautiful and will be 'good enough'.
And I am also aware the S600 Maybach drives better than the Phantom. Sure a Phantom is not new anymore, but is also handmade and 3 times as expensive. MB did an excellent job, but BMW is my thing, can't help it. Even when the S class ends up being the better car, I'd still pick a 7er. It's beautiful and will be 'good enough'.
mdartisian
Tarmac Traveler
The S class has the better presentation and perception of quality, but as far as actual quality of materials used, from what I've seen and heard so far, the 7 series may be the better car this time around. We'll have to wait and see for ourselves.
It's all in perception. The official unveiling of the 7 could have...
Focused more on luxury
And less on technology
And the general public would've believed the 7 series is better than they believe it is now, though it's still the same car.
Mr. Mercedes
Premium
No need to get upset Mohammed ....you take my critiques too personally
I am tough on Mercedes designers and engineers because I expect the best from them. Of course I appreciate the quality of the S class interior.....I am only expressing opinions based on my personal tastes (like everyone else) ....and IMO the Maybach interior may be very comfortable but it lacks the Mulsanne's class ....but I doubt that will even be noticed by the vast majority of buyers. However, I would choose the Maybach over the Ghost. The S Class Coupé is a truly special car ....I have made my feelings about it very clear.
Not upset Rob. Sorry if it came across the way. Must be the hunger getting to me!
SDNR
Kraftwagen König
Oh, I forgot it was Ramadan. I heard some people talking about it recently.Not upset Rob. Sorry if it came across the way. Must be the hunger getting to me!
Well apart from the religious significance, fasting is apparently healthy as well ......and you will appreciate eating afterwards
Mr. Mercedes
Premium
It's my annual detox/weight loss month! 
That said, after turning 30 the weight doesn't drop off like it used to. And I used to think that was an old wives tale...
That said, after turning 30 the weight doesn't drop off like it used to. And I used to think that was an old wives tale...
Carmaker1
Quattro Commander
This is very hard for me, as I like to be as objective as possible. I was the grandson of a BMW man (importer) and still the son of a BMW gal (and Jaguar guy), but greatly in love with the W222. I have never personally had an S-Class in my immediately family growing up nor personally owned anything in this class for myself. I've grown up with the 7-Series since the E38 and my maternal grandfather owned an E32 as his last BMW.
By extended family and friends, I've come into contact with the various generations of S-Class here and there, but never at home. My father does not like Mercedes-Benz (except Geländewagen) the way the rest of his family does and prefers British makes (especially Jaguar) above everything, with the exception of Audi.
I love both brands for their own respective qualities, but will try to be honest. The amount of technology and refinement packed into the G11 certainly takes the 7er forward, but will this design last 7 more years is the question?
My only gripes with the G11 is the shaping of the headlights (they look swollen) and the dash design similarity to the F30. Even the E38 and F01 dash designs did not closely resemble that of the E36 and E90, the way the E32 and G11 have with the E30 and F30 respectively. The way the make up for this, is in the attention to detail, and superior fit & finish for their respective eras.
I talked with my mother about this and we both believe that some aspects of the S-Class are too overdone, while BMW has also underdone the G11 in some ways. Does not really matter anyway, as she will never buy an S-Class saloon over a 7er.
I had much more to say on this specific topic, but cannot really remember anymore. I am usually indecisive, that I'd honestly take both if I was in her position! You can't go wrong with either. As some of you said below, it is all about subjective taste.
That's how my father has always looked at things and has never really liked what Mercedes-Benz has to offer, except for the Geländewagen. He's strictly been about British autos and Audi, except when practicality and versatility is a factor. However, he has never liked the current XJ, but does like its replacement (a reason I will not want/need one). Again, I have no favourites of course. I am not too fond of Maserati, but they are still decent.
Well, that isn't quite fair to say, but I do agree somewhat. Some people are too badge-biased to the point, that Jaguar does not even get a chance and automatically render it inferior. This is "German Car Forum" not "British Car Forum, so it's understandably expected.
We do not exactly have the most resources to work with and brand cache like BMW and Mercedes-Benz do, so we've done what we can on gambles. Outside of BMW Individual, there have been some areas where BMW doesn't surpass Jaguar and Mercedes-Benz has only fully flourished as of late.
I can see why I post less here, as I am not an argumentative person, and quite tired of the endless digs thrown at Jaguar. GCF is still very much more objective, compared to many other sites, that would give me a migraine.
Oh really? We'll see about that then, as you're very unaware how we're in the middle of development on a very large project at the moment and the current XJ (X351) is not eternal nor fully representative of our best work under less limitations.
It is very helpful seeing what the W222 and G11 have to offer, but we've already made our own plans as well with substantial investment. If we are fully incapable, then I might as well as join the unemployment queue.
Robert Lešnik came to Mercedes-Benz in January 2009 and Karim Habib in March 2009, both towards the end of the W222 design process. Habib was in Advanced Design (influenced F800), with Lešnik somehow inserting himself into design of the W222. For the life of me, I cannot understand why both Lešnik and Mark Fetherston are continually given credit nearly every new MB's exterior design. Are they that good?
Il-hun Yoon was responsible for the W222 exterior, yet has been shoved into the background for mysterious reasons and late comer Lešnik getting the sole credit, when Yoon was still working on 1:1 W222 clay models in 2009 and did much of the sketches priorly. What did Lešnik do that was so spectacular and differentiating from Yoon's suggestions, that gave him such credit so last minute?
Yoon Sketch
Lesnik Post-Design Freeze Sketch
It's not so much Daimler/Chrysler era, but simply Peter Pfeiffer. When he got overall control in 1999, plus mixing the recent merger, things became a blocky mess. The W222 design was one of the first fully approved under Wagener 6 years ago and one he was allowed several months to oversee, compared to the CLS (C218).
Considering that Wagener designed the W221 himself in 2001, it is no wonder the transition from W221 to W222 went so well. Habib was promoted too late to preside over the G11 design process. The F800 was developed in 2009 for Geneve 2010 and looks to showcase Sensual Purity more.
One cannot solely blame Chrysler for Daimler's prior failures, they were both bad for each other. I have heard both sides of the story and neither is innocent. I do agree that Chrysler caused them to lose focus, as it was an unnecessary headache to additionally manage. Both companies were headed down the same path by 1993, thanks to Robert Eaton of Chrysler destroying Iacocca's visions and McKinsey's & Company's cost-cutting influence on Daimler-Benz.
The C218, W166, and X166 are of the "Aqua Dynamic" theme in my own opinion. The C218 and W166 were both frozen around the same time in 2008, while the GL followed after in 2009. Much of the design for the C218 was laid out in 2007 and probably the W166 as well.
The W222 was finished in 2009 and W205 in late 2010. The odd thing about the CLS is, that it underwent changes between design patent filings in June 2008 and the actual product was more angular. The Huckfeldt leak in May 2008 was 100% correct, but MB changed it up a bit by 2010.
Looking at the timing, Wagener was probably not allowed much leeway with aspects of the GL. He did barely take over in June 2008. I had said in the past on here, that the W212 was frozen in 2006 and X204 sometime in 2005. Pfeiffer's deep influence didn't really surface until about 2004, as no redesigns were launched in 2003. The W211 E-Class I've learned, was moreover a Sacco-influenced design and the R230 SL is also his through and through (June 16, 1997 sign-off).
When someone takes the lead post and has a different design idiom, their vision might take awhile to have proper effect. Peter Schreyer took over Hyundai design nearly 2.5 years ago and none of the recent redesigns were influenced by him. His supposed "Bauhaus" C5 A6 launched in 1997, was actually designed under Harmut Warkuss in 1991-1992 and frozen in June 1994. Schreyer took over Audi Design afterward in October 1994, yet is wrongly credited for that car. The TT was his first Audi and B6 his first saloon.
In many ways that is true, but Daimler also forced Chrysler to spend 40% less on their interiors, hence the terrible plastics that were used on their LX platform offerings from 2004-2010 and many other Chrysler vehicles. It was a very complex situation, but I am too tired to remember both sides fully. The end result has been like a bitter divorce, where "friends" of each have differing viewpoints.
Bear in mind that the E84 X1, while designed under Adrian van Hooydonk as BMW Brand Design director in 2006, Bangle was also BMW Group Design director back then. I cannot honestly vouch for how things changed, when van Hooydonk assumed his role in February 2004 and Bangle became formally in charge of all BMW Group Design.
I presume he had a say in how things were done, until departing 5 years later. Bangle's previous role (AvH's current role) as "Group design chief" is a unique one, as Ian and Gerry primarily do their work independent of each other at JLR. The F45/46 and F56 are very much of course recent stuff, so no argument there in being more subjective.
Well, he was definitely was there for the F10 and plenty more. When Bangle departed by February 3, 2009, BMW had already designed F07, E84, F10, F25, F12/13, and F20. The design for the F10 was chosen in December 2006 and frozen in mid-2007. Him leaving only had some bearing on future models (post-2012), as even the F30 was being designed back in 2008.
Lol! In some ways, that isn't too far off (no offense anyone). I always threw a fit whenever the latest thread post under the "Mercedes-Benz" section was "Mercedes-Benz A-Class (W176)", while I'm instead looking for W222/W205/C217/W213 spy shots and had to click further.
If he did, they were added very late in his tenure. I honestly would attribute those circular vents to the interior designer's visions, as plenty of Pfeiffer-directed designs have those. They just weren't on the level of the current style, that borrows more from English designs.
Quite unfair to pick on the X100 XK (and Jaguar in general), as that is very subjective and not really fact. I disagree about 1990s interiors, as you might as well include BMW interiors from the '80s as well. The E38, E39, and E46 were very good quality evolutions of their predecessors. MB took an unfortunate step-down in quality with obvious cost-cuts, while BMW worked their hardest to maintain profitability and improve on the E32, E34, and E36. Audi's only went up as well.
Some of it is because the F30 has been out for the 3.5 years and the G11 is just arriving, while the W205 C-Class was launched less than a year after the W222 S-Class. People have had plenty of time to get used to the 3er's design, while the S and C were nearly parallel, with the former preceding it. Audi was attacked for this greatly with the B8 A4 and D4 A8, which will not be an issue again with the D5 and B9.
My mother before even getting an invitation, was puzzled at the leaked winter shots and wondered why the G11 was not "very different" and "took after a smaller car". She is content now with it (due to features and etc), but still had to be convinced initially. She lives day-in-day-out with an F02 and has done-so for 5-6 years, so for her to feel that way begs the question.
Not quite, as the G11 design process began in 2010. The design was frozen about 3 years ago and design selection months before that. BMW most certainly was not starting the G11 design process as the F30 came out (Oct. 2011 prod, launch Feb. 2012), but were actually finishing up back then. It was essentially done by around June-July 2012.
The F15 design was reached in late 2010, if not Oct-November 2010 specifically, and by then the F30 was deep into testing. Much of the F30 was designed in 2008-2009, with proposal selection on March 2, 2009 and rapid design freeze in the following months.
The W222 is actually evolutionary (not revolutionary) in design, but differentiated enough from the angular W221 facelift through more organic shapes. The F01 was never particularly angular nor too organic, so the differences are not as obvious with the G11. I never really liked the W221 overall for that reason and preferred the F02. That's not to say it wasn't a wonderful car, as the level of quality improvement in the post-facelift W221 was excellent, while the original was a necessary stepping stone over the W220.
As for revolution, I think it will be the next 7er that will take that role. The E23, E32, and E38 were so similar, they're a family. The E65, F01, and G11 are a family of 21st 7ers. Not sure if what I'm saying makes sense.
Yes, pretty much the case here, even if the S-Class was out only less than a year before the W205 C. It is better in my opinion, for the flagship or halo model to lead the brand all the way. I am pleased that at Jaguar we have corrected this issue with next model, as the XJ just kept coming "last" since the 1990s (against XK, S-Type/XF, X-Type). Audi will do so as well with the D5, unlike the D4.
The 3-Series has always been a bridge between old BMW design and new BMW design. It helps keep the 3er fresh, while not taking away the shine from the flagship. Some people don't see it this way and automatically assume the 7 is an enlarged 3-Series. Only in the case of the E65, that this did not happen. There's nothing wrong with them being the same, but merely about hierarchy in the line-up. Top-down certainly does matter to a degree and Mercedes-Benz usually gets this right.
The difference is, the F30 has been in public long enough to make a lasting impression. The G11 is new and anyone who notices that, will make the correlation that "7er copied the cheaper car", similarly the way my mother did initially. Jaguar had this terrible problem 10-12 years ago, with the X-Type (2000-01) and X350 XJ (2002-03). Will not be happening, even if the XE has certain "weaknesses". The X760 (XE) successor will take after the redesigned XJ (X360), even though development has yet to begin on the former.
As you correctly said above, dimensions and perspective matter. Anyone that spots a 750Li and thinks it's a 318i, is clearly challenged. A C450 AMG Sport is far from being an S500.
What are you talking about? I'm not sure how these are particularly "cheaper". Maybe that applies to Mercedes-Benz more post-1995, but everybody else did very well in execution. Audi had its ascendancy for this very reason.
Audi V8 (1988-1991 version)-Cannot find any press shots
Audi V8 (1991-1994 version)-Dual Airbags, newer 4.2L
Audi A8 (D2)-A VAST improvement
You can't really say that is 100% correct (E65 copy), as the S-Class looks very oddly similar to a Japanese solution introduced in 1998. The same year BMW was designing i-Drive's layout and the E65 interior. Despite that, surely Mercedes-Benz were later on more focused on the E65, their closest competitor, rather than Nissan. How do you know the W221 was not frozen by the time the E65 was launched? It was very far along by December 2002.
Again, that is variable. Only the iDrive controller vs COMAND knob can be of question, as everything might have not come from BMW. BMW's screen placement solution may or may not been influenced by a Nissan interior from 1998 (designed in 1995).
I cannot properly speak for BMW, but the design of i-Drive interface in 1998 was an interesting story, but might've had prior influences of its own. It is Japanese automakers that came up with the idea for a higher screen placement, but BMW has full credit for the idea of a centre console-mounted control knob for the infotainment system on the E65.
Toyota was the first automaker to implement an infotainment screen at eye-level for better view, in January 1998 on the 100-Series Land Cruiser. Much of the design development for that was done between 1991 and mid-1994. Again, Nissan takes the credit in terms of screen set-up, not overall interface.
The Nissan interface handled audio, climate, communication, parking assist camera, TV, and GPS functions. That iDrive interface was a pioneering effort for BMW that influenced the marketplace, but one can see who is closer to the Japanese design and it isn't BMW.
The '90s Japanese interfaces are definitely inferior to iDrive, as the Toyota system was solely touchscreen and not fully housed with the instrument clustre. The Nissan controller knob was too small and too far away to operate. However, all somewhat give an idea of independent progression towards better ergonomics. Audi's MMI took a different approach, being mostly developed parallel to iDrive from 1997 to 2000.
Looking down at touch screens below the steering wheel was no longer favourable for driving conditions, such as the case in the E38, LS400, A8 (D2), W220.
As I said to klier, no it was not. The E65 only pioneered the infotainment system and use of a centre console-mounted controller knob, but the massive screen housing was a template already developed by Japanese automakers in the mid-1990s. The W221 and W222 COMAND screen placement resembles the Nissan example, more so than BMW's E65 i-Drive monitor placement. Not many cars have exactly copied the BMW set-up per se, if BMW was not first.
Ironically, the same individual supposedly designed both the W222 (2009) and W205 (2010). As we've seen, the W205 still took quite some work.
The S Coupe concept looked so sexy (oh god yes it did!) with that fully upright shark nose, as that is the only element missing on the C217. Clearly the production C217 was designed years before it, so it was too last minute. Hopefully they are implementing it for the C217 facelift in 2018.
Of course, the ultimate and original shark nose is this.
That is specifically your subjective taste, which is quite good (based on those beautiful examples), but other's ideas of ultra luxury are not necessarily inferior.
The Germanic interpretation isn't the end-all, be-all. Everything is very subjective, as some people feel German interiors are "cold" and "clinical", compared to "warmer and more inviting" English interiors. The W222, W205, and C217 have eliminated this to a degree. BMW has also done very well with the G11, by adding certain "touches" to it for once, especially in Individual trim. In fact many BMW interiors are improving significantly via better material selection and accenting.
Also, the idea that the Japanese somehow use "plastic" or "shiny" wood is quite an unfair, if not heavily biased opinion. One has seen many odd interpretations from German offerings alike.
No, you're actually not. My father purchased one in late 2005 and still owns it till this day. It resides with my sister in Georgia now. Wonderful car, but it's unfortunately the "best" XJ interior of this generation (X350) and that apparently isn't saying much. The '09 SV8 Portfolio (X359) that joined it temporarily, his last Jaguar purchase, is nothing special. Reaching 10 years old, it is very reliable and the best example of that generation all-around.
By extended family and friends, I've come into contact with the various generations of S-Class here and there, but never at home. My father does not like Mercedes-Benz (except Geländewagen) the way the rest of his family does and prefers British makes (especially Jaguar) above everything, with the exception of Audi.
I love both brands for their own respective qualities, but will try to be honest. The amount of technology and refinement packed into the G11 certainly takes the 7er forward, but will this design last 7 more years is the question?
My only gripes with the G11 is the shaping of the headlights (they look swollen) and the dash design similarity to the F30. Even the E38 and F01 dash designs did not closely resemble that of the E36 and E90, the way the E32 and G11 have with the E30 and F30 respectively. The way the make up for this, is in the attention to detail, and superior fit & finish for their respective eras.
I talked with my mother about this and we both believe that some aspects of the S-Class are too overdone, while BMW has also underdone the G11 in some ways. Does not really matter anyway, as she will never buy an S-Class saloon over a 7er.
I had much more to say on this specific topic, but cannot really remember anymore. I am usually indecisive, that I'd honestly take both if I was in her position! You can't go wrong with either. As some of you said below, it is all about subjective taste.
That's how my father has always looked at things and has never really liked what Mercedes-Benz has to offer, except for the Geländewagen. He's strictly been about British autos and Audi, except when practicality and versatility is a factor. However, he has never liked the current XJ, but does like its replacement (a reason I will not want/need one). Again, I have no favourites of course. I am not too fond of Maserati, but they are still decent.
Well, that isn't quite fair to say, but I do agree somewhat. Some people are too badge-biased to the point, that Jaguar does not even get a chance and automatically render it inferior. This is "German Car Forum" not "British Car Forum, so it's understandably expected.
We do not exactly have the most resources to work with and brand cache like BMW and Mercedes-Benz do, so we've done what we can on gambles. Outside of BMW Individual, there have been some areas where BMW doesn't surpass Jaguar and Mercedes-Benz has only fully flourished as of late.
I can see why I post less here, as I am not an argumentative person, and quite tired of the endless digs thrown at Jaguar. GCF is still very much more objective, compared to many other sites, that would give me a migraine.
Oh really? We'll see about that then, as you're very unaware how we're in the middle of development on a very large project at the moment and the current XJ (X351) is not eternal nor fully representative of our best work under less limitations.
It is very helpful seeing what the W222 and G11 have to offer, but we've already made our own plans as well with substantial investment. If we are fully incapable, then I might as well as join the unemployment queue.
Interesting. In my humble opinion, the 222 style evolved thusly: "Aqua-dynamic theme" pioneered by Lee, Rhoades, Wagener et al. around 2005-2007. Then Habib and Robert Lešnik join the team. And the Rising Car sculpture arrives at NAIAS 2010, followed by the F800 Style in Geneva 2010, before the 222 premiered in Hamburg in May of 2013.
2007:
http://www.germancarforum.com/threads/mercedes-advanced-design-studio.24788/#post-582216
2010:
http://www.germancarforum.com/threa...pture-for-naias-2010.31963/page-4#post-748444
2013:
http://www.germancarforum.com/threads/2014-mercedes-benz-s-class-w222.48988/page-226#post-748725
Robert Lešnik came to Mercedes-Benz in January 2009 and Karim Habib in March 2009, both towards the end of the W222 design process. Habib was in Advanced Design (influenced F800), with Lešnik somehow inserting himself into design of the W222. For the life of me, I cannot understand why both Lešnik and Mark Fetherston are continually given credit nearly every new MB's exterior design. Are they that good?
Il-hun Yoon was responsible for the W222 exterior, yet has been shoved into the background for mysterious reasons and late comer Lešnik getting the sole credit, when Yoon was still working on 1:1 W222 clay models in 2009 and did much of the sketches priorly. What did Lešnik do that was so spectacular and differentiating from Yoon's suggestions, that gave him such credit so last minute?
Yoon Sketch
Lesnik Post-Design Freeze Sketch
Yes that makes sense .....obviously my thoughts are based on observation and feelings.
Thanks for telling us the name to the F800's styling theme (Aqua-dynamic). It certainly has an aquatic look.
Do you not think the styling ideas changed quite dramatically when we compare the F700 and the F800?
The rising car sculpture fits with the Aqua-dynamic theme.
The Aqua-dynamic theme can be clearly seen in the interior of the W222 ...but on the exterior we only really see the subtle influence of this theme on the standard front bumber styling.
Any thoughts?
....and what about the Ocean Drive Concept .....is there any future for this or was this the last breath of the Daimler/Chrysler era?
It's not so much Daimler/Chrysler era, but simply Peter Pfeiffer. When he got overall control in 1999, plus mixing the recent merger, things became a blocky mess. The W222 design was one of the first fully approved under Wagener 6 years ago and one he was allowed several months to oversee, compared to the CLS (C218).
Considering that Wagener designed the W221 himself in 2001, it is no wonder the transition from W221 to W222 went so well. Habib was promoted too late to preside over the G11 design process. The F800 was developed in 2009 for Geneve 2010 and looks to showcase Sensual Purity more.
One cannot solely blame Chrysler for Daimler's prior failures, they were both bad for each other. I have heard both sides of the story and neither is innocent. I do agree that Chrysler caused them to lose focus, as it was an unnecessary headache to additionally manage. Both companies were headed down the same path by 1993, thanks to Robert Eaton of Chrysler destroying Iacocca's visions and McKinsey's & Company's cost-cutting influence on Daimler-Benz.
The C218, W166, and X166 are of the "Aqua Dynamic" theme in my own opinion. The C218 and W166 were both frozen around the same time in 2008, while the GL followed after in 2009. Much of the design for the C218 was laid out in 2007 and probably the W166 as well.
The W222 was finished in 2009 and W205 in late 2010. The odd thing about the CLS is, that it underwent changes between design patent filings in June 2008 and the actual product was more angular. The Huckfeldt leak in May 2008 was 100% correct, but MB changed it up a bit by 2010.
Looking at the timing, Wagener was probably not allowed much leeway with aspects of the GL. He did barely take over in June 2008. I had said in the past on here, that the W212 was frozen in 2006 and X204 sometime in 2005. Pfeiffer's deep influence didn't really surface until about 2004, as no redesigns were launched in 2003. The W211 E-Class I've learned, was moreover a Sacco-influenced design and the R230 SL is also his through and through (June 16, 1997 sign-off).
When someone takes the lead post and has a different design idiom, their vision might take awhile to have proper effect. Peter Schreyer took over Hyundai design nearly 2.5 years ago and none of the recent redesigns were influenced by him. His supposed "Bauhaus" C5 A6 launched in 1997, was actually designed under Harmut Warkuss in 1991-1992 and frozen in June 1994. Schreyer took over Audi Design afterward in October 1994, yet is wrongly credited for that car. The TT was his first Audi and B6 his first saloon.
In many ways that is true, but Daimler also forced Chrysler to spend 40% less on their interiors, hence the terrible plastics that were used on their LX platform offerings from 2004-2010 and many other Chrysler vehicles. It was a very complex situation, but I am too tired to remember both sides fully. The end result has been like a bitter divorce, where "friends" of each have differing viewpoints.
Bear in mind that the E84 X1, while designed under Adrian van Hooydonk as BMW Brand Design director in 2006, Bangle was also BMW Group Design director back then. I cannot honestly vouch for how things changed, when van Hooydonk assumed his role in February 2004 and Bangle became formally in charge of all BMW Group Design.
I presume he had a say in how things were done, until departing 5 years later. Bangle's previous role (AvH's current role) as "Group design chief" is a unique one, as Ian and Gerry primarily do their work independent of each other at JLR. The F45/46 and F56 are very much of course recent stuff, so no argument there in being more subjective.
Well, he was definitely was there for the F10 and plenty more. When Bangle departed by February 3, 2009, BMW had already designed F07, E84, F10, F25, F12/13, and F20. The design for the F10 was chosen in December 2006 and frozen in mid-2007. Him leaving only had some bearing on future models (post-2012), as even the F30 was being designed back in 2008.
This board went to hell after the new A-class were exposed. Sooo many new Benz supporters arrived to this place
Lol! In some ways, that isn't too far off (no offense anyone). I always threw a fit whenever the latest thread post under the "Mercedes-Benz" section was "Mercedes-Benz A-Class (W176)", while I'm instead looking for W222/W205/C217/W213 spy shots and had to click further.
Round vents? The 1997 Mercedes-Maybach Concept featured them when it premiered in Tokyo. Bruno Sacco may have liked them?
1997 Mercedes-Maybach Concept featuring round six slat air nozzles on the center dash.
164 ML and X164 GL with round six slat air nozzles.
Aesthetics No 2 premiered in Detroit in January 2011.
If he did, they were added very late in his tenure. I honestly would attribute those circular vents to the interior designer's visions, as plenty of Pfeiffer-directed designs have those. They just weren't on the level of the current style, that borrows more from English designs.
Maybe you're right.
The 1990s was not a particularly great decade for luxury car interiors.
God this is hellishly ugly!
Quite unfair to pick on the X100 XK (and Jaguar in general), as that is very subjective and not really fact. I disagree about 1990s interiors, as you might as well include BMW interiors from the '80s as well. The E38, E39, and E46 were very good quality evolutions of their predecessors. MB took an unfortunate step-down in quality with obvious cost-cuts, while BMW worked their hardest to maintain profitability and improve on the E32, E34, and E36. Audi's only went up as well.
Some of it is because the F30 has been out for the 3.5 years and the G11 is just arriving, while the W205 C-Class was launched less than a year after the W222 S-Class. People have had plenty of time to get used to the 3er's design, while the S and C were nearly parallel, with the former preceding it. Audi was attacked for this greatly with the B8 A4 and D4 A8, which will not be an issue again with the D5 and B9.
My mother before even getting an invitation, was puzzled at the leaked winter shots and wondered why the G11 was not "very different" and "took after a smaller car". She is content now with it (due to features and etc), but still had to be convinced initially. She lives day-in-day-out with an F02 and has done-so for 5-6 years, so for her to feel that way begs the question.
The way I've seen it was, automakers and the industry as a whole began placing heavy emphasis on design around late 2012/13. BMW was still of the mindset going into development of the G11 that all core BMW models should have conservative designs. I'm not sure but, didn't the G11 begin development during the time the F30 3series came out? If so, taking into consideration that in their design studios, the F30 was the next phase of their evolutionary design with the grill to the headlights connection and all that. Fast forward to the release of the X5 and somehow that headlight to grill connection became outdated faster than BMW's design process had evolved. This 3 series is very successful and an overall nice evolution of BMW design, but that particular design language of headlight connected to grill is very homogenous and tends to take away from the freshness of the face of the car as it leaves the feeling that that face has already been seen before even though they are all distinct in their own way and not exactly cut and paste. It doesn't help that BMW's designs has experience dilution from copy-cat brands.
People probably had high expectations of the G11 showcasing BMW's VFL design language, but I see the G11 as a refinement of the design phase that began at F30, continued in the X5, with a bit of a salute to the Concept CS.
As far as the future of BMW interior design goes, people are ready for a revolution at BMW and I think BMW is already prepared for that, but the question is, what year is BMW design studio operating in for production vehicles? MB's design studio is in a revolutionary phase that's why they appear so new in relation to BMW design.
But BMW design studio is just as new if not more so as far as cutting edge design goes.
BMW has arguably the most identifiable design identity of the German trio (kidney grills/hofmeister kink ) so they could go revolutionary and still be accepted as BMW.
Not quite, as the G11 design process began in 2010. The design was frozen about 3 years ago and design selection months before that. BMW most certainly was not starting the G11 design process as the F30 came out (Oct. 2011 prod, launch Feb. 2012), but were actually finishing up back then. It was essentially done by around June-July 2012.
The F15 design was reached in late 2010, if not Oct-November 2010 specifically, and by then the F30 was deep into testing. Much of the F30 was designed in 2008-2009, with proposal selection on March 2, 2009 and rapid design freeze in the following months.
The W222 is actually evolutionary (not revolutionary) in design, but differentiated enough from the angular W221 facelift through more organic shapes. The F01 was never particularly angular nor too organic, so the differences are not as obvious with the G11. I never really liked the W221 overall for that reason and preferred the F02. That's not to say it wasn't a wonderful car, as the level of quality improvement in the post-facelift W221 was excellent, while the original was a necessary stepping stone over the W220.
As for revolution, I think it will be the next 7er that will take that role. The E23, E32, and E38 were so similar, they're a family. The E65, F01, and G11 are a family of 21st 7ers. Not sure if what I'm saying makes sense.
Yes, pretty much the case here, even if the S-Class was out only less than a year before the W205 C. It is better in my opinion, for the flagship or halo model to lead the brand all the way. I am pleased that at Jaguar we have corrected this issue with next model, as the XJ just kept coming "last" since the 1990s (against XK, S-Type/XF, X-Type). Audi will do so as well with the D5, unlike the D4.
Agree with you. Yes. This is the problem. People are saying the 7 is a big 3 Series, which is bad, and the C Class looks so good it almost looks like a small S Class, which is good.
In the end, to me, it's all the same. It's always been that way. Look at an E30 side to side with an E34 and E32, from the front, they are very much alike, from the sides too. The real difference is in the rear. And that's about it. Same with the W201 190E and the bigger Benzes of the time.
Automakers want their cars to look like each other, MB doesn't want their S Class to be confused with no stinkin BMW, and likewise, BMW wants their cars to look like BMWs, not Audis or Mercs.
I hear it (and read it online) all the time, how people complaint about cars looking the same nowadays, but it was not different 40 years ago.
Also, am I the only one who thinks the interior of the BMW in tan looks a bit, uhm Swedish?
I'm liking it more now
The 3-Series has always been a bridge between old BMW design and new BMW design. It helps keep the 3er fresh, while not taking away the shine from the flagship. Some people don't see it this way and automatically assume the 7 is an enlarged 3-Series. Only in the case of the E65, that this did not happen. There's nothing wrong with them being the same, but merely about hierarchy in the line-up. Top-down certainly does matter to a degree and Mercedes-Benz usually gets this right.
The difference is, the F30 has been in public long enough to make a lasting impression. The G11 is new and anyone who notices that, will make the correlation that "7er copied the cheaper car", similarly the way my mother did initially. Jaguar had this terrible problem 10-12 years ago, with the X-Type (2000-01) and X350 XJ (2002-03). Will not be happening, even if the XE has certain "weaknesses". The X760 (XE) successor will take after the redesigned XJ (X360), even though development has yet to begin on the former.
As you correctly said above, dimensions and perspective matter. Anyone that spots a 750Li and thinks it's a 318i, is clearly challenged. A C450 AMG Sport is far from being an S500.
What are you talking about? I'm not sure how these are particularly "cheaper". Maybe that applies to Mercedes-Benz more post-1995, but everybody else did very well in execution. Audi had its ascendancy for this very reason.
Audi V8 (1988-1991 version)-Cannot find any press shots
Audi V8 (1991-1994 version)-Dual Airbags, newer 4.2L
Audi A8 (D2)-A VAST improvement
You can't really say that is 100% correct (E65 copy), as the S-Class looks very oddly similar to a Japanese solution introduced in 1998. The same year BMW was designing i-Drive's layout and the E65 interior. Despite that, surely Mercedes-Benz were later on more focused on the E65, their closest competitor, rather than Nissan. How do you know the W221 was not frozen by the time the E65 was launched? It was very far along by December 2002.
Again, that is variable. Only the iDrive controller vs COMAND knob can be of question, as everything might have not come from BMW. BMW's screen placement solution may or may not been influenced by a Nissan interior from 1998 (designed in 1995).
I cannot properly speak for BMW, but the design of i-Drive interface in 1998 was an interesting story, but might've had prior influences of its own. It is Japanese automakers that came up with the idea for a higher screen placement, but BMW has full credit for the idea of a centre console-mounted control knob for the infotainment system on the E65.
Toyota was the first automaker to implement an infotainment screen at eye-level for better view, in January 1998 on the 100-Series Land Cruiser. Much of the design development for that was done between 1991 and mid-1994. Again, Nissan takes the credit in terms of screen set-up, not overall interface.
The Nissan interface handled audio, climate, communication, parking assist camera, TV, and GPS functions. That iDrive interface was a pioneering effort for BMW that influenced the marketplace, but one can see who is closer to the Japanese design and it isn't BMW.
The '90s Japanese interfaces are definitely inferior to iDrive, as the Toyota system was solely touchscreen and not fully housed with the instrument clustre. The Nissan controller knob was too small and too far away to operate. However, all somewhat give an idea of independent progression towards better ergonomics. Audi's MMI took a different approach, being mostly developed parallel to iDrive from 1997 to 2000.
Looking down at touch screens below the steering wheel was no longer favourable for driving conditions, such as the case in the E38, LS400, A8 (D2), W220.
As I said to klier, no it was not. The E65 only pioneered the infotainment system and use of a centre console-mounted controller knob, but the massive screen housing was a template already developed by Japanese automakers in the mid-1990s. The W221 and W222 COMAND screen placement resembles the Nissan example, more so than BMW's E65 i-Drive monitor placement. Not many cars have exactly copied the BMW set-up per se, if BMW was not first.
Ironically, the same individual supposedly designed both the W222 (2009) and W205 (2010). As we've seen, the W205 still took quite some work.
The S Coupe concept looked so sexy (oh god yes it did!) with that fully upright shark nose, as that is the only element missing on the C217. Clearly the production C217 was designed years before it, so it was too last minute. Hopefully they are implementing it for the C217 facelift in 2018.
Of course, the ultimate and original shark nose is this.
I think wood can offer a very warm and pleasing aesthetic atmosphere ......but it is quite strange we should have wood in car interiors.
It goes without saying that wood gives a traditional character to the cabin ........but high luxury does not always require wood
Look at these two pictures, both are finest quality ....the pre-War Mercedes is more Modern and timeless than the Rolls-Royce from the 1960s
1939 Mercedes-Benz 540K Spezial Roadster
1960 Rolls-Royce Phantom V
A little bit of wood used carefully can have a sublimely refined quality.
1938 Talbot Lago
But wood can also look terrible
Wood doesn't have to be traditional though. Love these examples:
BMW Gran Lusso
That is specifically your subjective taste, which is quite good (based on those beautiful examples), but other's ideas of ultra luxury are not necessarily inferior.
The Germanic interpretation isn't the end-all, be-all. Everything is very subjective, as some people feel German interiors are "cold" and "clinical", compared to "warmer and more inviting" English interiors. The W222, W205, and C217 have eliminated this to a degree. BMW has also done very well with the G11, by adding certain "touches" to it for once, especially in Individual trim. In fact many BMW interiors are improving significantly via better material selection and accenting.
Also, the idea that the Japanese somehow use "plastic" or "shiny" wood is quite an unfair, if not heavily biased opinion. One has seen many odd interpretations from German offerings alike.
Ι believe that I am the only fan of this interior in the whole GCF.
No, you're actually not. My father purchased one in late 2005 and still owns it till this day. It resides with my sister in Georgia now. Wonderful car, but it's unfortunately the "best" XJ interior of this generation (X350) and that apparently isn't saying much. The '09 SV8 Portfolio (X359) that joined it temporarily, his last Jaguar purchase, is nothing special. Reaching 10 years old, it is very reliable and the best example of that generation all-around.
Wolfgang
Kraftwagen König
MB and now BMW designer Hussein Al-Attar explained it thusly:
The design process at Mercedes is kind of different than the one at BMW in the sense that not (like in the case of BMW) only one designer is responsible for executing their original idea, but some designers start, others pick up and maybe someone else finishes.
The original design proposal that "started it all" if you will, is courtesy of Mr. Il-Hun Yoon, who has been referred to as the Asian gentleman in the video. Robert Lesnik either finished the design, meaning he was responsible for the best possible transformation from the 1/4 scale model to the full scale model, or he was in charge of finishing it, supervising Mr. Yoon.
The interior designer you can see in the video is Peter Balko.
http://www.germancarforum.com/threads/2014-mercedes-benz-s-class-w222.48988/page-23#post-639373
And in this vid advanced global lead Steffen Köhl talks about S design.
klier
Premium
@Carmaker1's post has got to be one of the longest in the history of the forum haha, it's an entire thread in itself.
Will give it a try to respond later when I can properly read it and re-read the older conversations. Great post though, and in my brief glimpse I saw I might have been a bit harsh on Jaguar, but I probably wantd to irritate Kiwirob a bit there
Will give it a try to respond later when I can properly read it and re-read the older conversations. Great post though, and in my brief glimpse I saw I might have been a bit harsh on Jaguar, but I probably wantd to irritate Kiwirob a bit there
ThroughandThrough
Kraftkurve King
...and I fooled myself into believing I knew something about cars.
Busty
Highway Hunter
Great post, overall. I do not agree with all your statements about how the E65 HMI solution came up since its origin was not in Japanese examples at all. But the idea of only German brands bringing up big automotive innovations is kinda flawed. For that matter: Jaguar is actually working on some very innovative topics and has one major advantage compared to the German brands .... they don't get lost in internal politics and fights at Jag and do not over-test every new tech. I am pretty optimistic that we will see some serious tech from them soon.
DjordjeC63
Vorsprung Visionary
Why only Japan got that CNS? Because they are technology freaks or?
Mr. Mercedes
Premium
MB and now BMW designer Hussein Al-Attar explained it thusly:
The design process at Mercedes is kind of different than the one at BMW in the sense that not (like in the case of BMW) only one designer is responsible for executing their original idea, but some designers start, others pick up and maybe someone else finishes.
The original design proposal that "started it all" if you will, is courtesy of Mr. Il-Hun Yoon, who has been referred to as the Asian gentleman in the video. Robert Lesnik either finished the design, meaning he was responsible for the best possible transformation from the 1/4 scale model to the full scale model, or he was in charge of finishing it, supervising Mr. Yoon.
The interior designer you can see in the video is Peter Balko.
http://www.germancarforum.com/threads/2014-mercedes-benz-s-class-w222.48988/page-23#post-639373
And in this vid advanced global lead Steffen Köhl talks about S design.
@Wolfgang, around the time the W222 was introduced there were reports that when Lesnik arrived at Mercedes he basically begged/convinced Wagoner to let him have a go at the S-class. Does this mean he probably took Yoon's proposal and worked on interpreting that rather than starting from a clean sheet?
Also if Yoon and Lesnik did the S, who did the C?
Has anyone noticed that Asian designers are becoming more and more prominent within German Car design departments? It's great to see and proof that they are amazing designers in their own rights. Furthermore it suggests it is most likely the corporate culture at companies like Honda, Toyota, Lexus etc. that stifle their creativity.
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