M1 AutoZeitung: New "M1" supercar from BMW?

[Sunny]

AFAIK courts didn't have anything to do with it. It was cause VW or rather Piech wanted both and outbid BMW. But BMW made a smart move and got rights for the RR name from the RR aircraft engine makers (Rolls Royce plc). So at one point VW owned RR but couldn't call their cars that cause BMW owned the name. So they both negotiated and VW sold RR to BMW for a nominal price.

 

[Sunny]

Here is a more accurate version from Wikipedia.

In 1998, owners Vickers decided to sell Rolls-Royce Motors. The most likely buyer was BMW, who already supplied engines and other components for Rolls-Royce and Bentley cars, but BMW's final offer of £340m was beaten by Volkswagen's £430m.
However Rolls-Royce plc, the aero-engine maker, decided it would license certain essential trademarks (the Rolls-Royce name and logo) not to VW but to BMW, with whom it had recently had joint business ventures. VW had bought rights to the "Spirit of Ecstasy" hood ornament and the shape of the radiator grille, but it lacked rights to the Rolls-Royce name necessary to build the cars. Likewise, BMW lacked rights to the grille and mascot. BMW bought an option on the trademarks, licensing the name and "RR" logo for £40m, a deal that many commentators thought was a bargain for possibly the most valuable property in the deal. VW claimed that it had only really wanted Bentley anyway.
BMW and VW arrived at a solution. From 1998 to 2002 BMW would continue to supply engines for the cars and would allow use of the names, but this would cease on January 1, 2003. On that date, only BMW would be able to name cars "Rolls-Royce", and VW's former Rolls-Royce/Bentley division would build only cars called "Bentley". Rolls Royce's convertible, the Corniche, ceased production in 2002.

So in the end BMW got RR for £40m, I say damn good deal.

 

[martinbo]

Back on to the topic of supercars and M CSL's...

In this month's EVO rumours are circulating that BMW is indeed looking at a supercar - what form that supercar will take is unknown; front mid-engined or mid-engined. I feel that, yes, very specialised halo models are a drain on profits. However, judging by the reaction of the press, public and general motoring enthusiasts BMW has a very strong contender in the form of Audi - a brand that they simply cannot lose the mantle of "best driver's cars for the money" to.

I still implicitly understand why BMW cars are better drivers' cars on the whole than Audi cars but the gap is narrowing with every year. And, of course, the concept of what makes a "driver's car" is fraught with subjectivity. Some say that RWD and a 50:50 weight distribution are paramount, others will counter by saying that all-wheel drive combined with muscular engines is the new thrill.

Now, chuck in an absolutely fabulous mid-engined supercar into the fray and suddenly...

 

[EnI]

AFAIK courts didn't have anything to do with it. It was cause VW or rather Piech wanted both and outbid BMW. But BMW made a smart move and got rights for the RR name from the RR aircraft engine makers (Rolls Royce plc). So at one point VW owned RR but couldn't call their cars that cause BMW owned the name. So they both negotiated and VW sold RR to BMW for a nominal price.

VW were willing to do that because RR & Bentley cars which were in production right then featured quite a lot parts supplied from BMW (incl engine & transmission). BMW threatened to cease the supply of those parts - yet that would cause end of production and irreparable damage to both brands - Bentley & RR. So both sides agreed it's the best to make a deal, and divide the brands.

It was a loose-loose situation for both companies since both trademarks were essential for their brand portfolio. BMW are still badly missing a sporty luxury brand, while VW has nothing to offer to fight RR & Maybach directly (price & image wise Bentley is still position lowered).

VW went for RR / Bentley only due to Piech's megalomaniac ego - because he had an obsession to acquire as many premium brands as possible. Piech even approached the Quandts asking them to sell then troubled BMW AG (due Rover debacle) to VAG. Of course the Quandts refused such "offer".

That move (BMW getting rights for RR trademark, check-mates VW in RR deal) made a great impression on Piech (he credited BMW CEO for that) so Piech managed to convince supervisory board to hire such "great mind" after BMW fired him (due the Rover debacle). And after loosing a job at BMW AG, Pischetsrieder became a CEO of VAG.

 

[Sunny]

As for supercars, I will settle for a BMW powered Lotus Espirit successor - best of both worlds, the best engine maker and the best chassis maker.

 

[EnI]

As for supercars, I will settle for a BMW powered Lotus Espirit successor - best of both worlds, the best engine maker and the best chassis maker.

BMW acquiring Lotus trademark (and know-how) is also a very interesting idea.



Although I have no info any such activities are in progress.

 

[martinbo]

Mmm, I've had the same idea for some time now too... [Me 'n that Sunny chap - we're on the same wavelength I tell you] Lotus would be a fabulous co-brand for BMW.

And with the Lotus brand, you're not limited to having to make Elise-based niche models only. Famous names like the Esprit and Eclat could be revised for supecar and grand-touring coupe applications respectively. The Lotuses would then get the one thing that kept them on the brink of greatness: a really good engine.

~~~

Warot, I believe that a moniker steeped in motoring exclusivity like that of the CSL badge shouldn't be bandied about frivolously. I don't think BMW or their consumers need an M5 CSL (sounds contradictory as it is...) nor an M6 CSL for that matter. The CSL treatment should be reserved for exclusively for the M3 and another smaller M-style coupe. A 135 CSL sounds better than a tii I reckon.

 

[Cashmere]

this has been a very informative thread with lots of great input.

Why does BMW not want to offer CSL versions in North America?

 

[EnI]

Back on to the topic of supercars and M CSL's...

In this month's EVO rumours are circulating that BMW is indeed looking at a supercar - what form that supercar will take is unknown; front mid-engined or mid-engined. I feel that, yes, very specialised halo models are a drain on profits. However, judging by the reaction of the press, public and general motoring enthusiasts BMW has a very strong contender in the form of Audi - a brand that they simply cannot lose the mantle of "best driver's cars for the money" to.

I still implicitly understand why BMW cars are better drivers' cars on the whole than Audi cars but the gap is narrowing with every year. And, of course, the concept of what makes a "driver's car" is fraught with subjectivity. Some say that RWD and a 50:50 weight distribution are paramount, others will counter by saying that all-wheel drive combined with muscular engines is the new thrill.

Now, chuck in an absolutely fabulous mid-engined supercar into the fray and suddenly...

Your claims are extremely contradictory.

With rivals closing the driving dynamics gap to core BMW models it is essential for BMW to focus even more on development on core platforms - to gain advantage over competitors again, not focusing on supercar (especially the M division).

If focusing on mid-engined supercar BMW could risk core models fell behind some rivals. And that would be fatal for BMW brand.

Mid-engined supercar does not make the brand sporty-performance oriented. C'mon even Nissan has a supercar. And Ford has it as well.
Does that make Ford & Nissan sporty-performance oriented brands? No.

Supercar is not essential to BMW. It's an ace card which will be played when needed. Won't be just a "me too" move.


*****

Regarding Lotus - yes, that would make a lot more sense. A separeate super-sporty performance brand within BMW Group - coming with it's own know-how & platforms.

 

[coolraoul]

It is as fatal to fall behind the competition for core BMW, as to loose the sporty image because of the lack of a sporty flagship.

I know a lot of people wit a 3-Series, which you will agree on that is the core of the core of BMW.

They don't even know what driving involvement and steering feel means. If i close their eyes, put them behind the wheel of my Golf, they won't even feel a difference. Only the lack of power and the look of the dash.

They bought it because of the sporty IMAGE, not the sporty DRIVING. It looks good, has a sporty and dynamic image, the price is okay for them, let's go, 3-Series.
For many of them, the C-Class has a too OLD image. not dynamic. It could be more sporty to drive than a CGT, they wouldn't buy it because the C-Class does not have the right image.

Therefore, the R8 and the heavy advertisments of it by Audi will make the brand Audi more sporty, and people will begin to say Hey, this Audi looks good, and Audi is super-sporty brand, LeMans, R8... Sporty image, it's all me!So they will consider the A4. it is already the case.

For me (anf of course that is only my feeling), image is more important than driving feel in that category. Look at how well the previous A4 sold, even with its noisy diesel motors and inferior handling. People just don't know about that, and they don't care. The car has to drive, that is all.

All these driving impression, steering wheel, handling, is only for car nuts: That is not the majority. The majority sees the R8, the SLR, and the...what, the 760? the X5?

Like I said, also, now everybody has an M3 and an M5 in the line-up, so BMW can't stay with them. It is not enough any more, because it is now normal for every premium carmaker.

Therefore I think BMW needs a sporty flagship. Something flashy, noisy, spectacular, something looking like a supercar.

 

[Zafiro]

BMW do not need to build a supercar ala CGT or a Zonda. However, they need to build more sportcars, everything from R8 competitior down to a Impreza/Evo competitior.

Give me several CSL, Tii and CS models and I will be satisfied.

M3 CSL
M3 CS
M6 CSL
135tii
120Csi

+ a nice sporty Roadster

 

[EnI]

It is as fatal to fall behind the competition for core BMW, as to loose the sporty image because of the lack of a sporty flagship.

Like I said, also, now everybody has an M3 and an M5 in the line-up, so BMW can't stay with them. It is not enough any more, because it is now normal for every premium carmaker.

Therefore I think BMW needs a sporty flagship. Something flashy, noisy, spectacular, something looking like a supercar.

?????

BMW have been without supercar in their portfolio for 27 years! Since 1981 when M1 production ended (and it was in production from 1978 - 1981).

8-series & Z8 were not considered as supercars. They were just flagship GT & roadster. And their successors are coming in the near future.

So, in this 27 years without supercar BMW managed to gain the sportiest image within premium brands, and even became #1 premium brand in the world (saleswise), and managed to retain the sportiest image. I don't think absence / presence of supercar changes everything. Because BMW did not gain sporty image because of that few years when the had M1 in their portfolio!!!

Audi was not considered as sporty brand. Nor was Lexus. That's why they need supercars. It's an instant try to get sporty image. A supercar without sporty core models means nothing!

Btw, once more: MB has a super car, Ford has a super car, Nissan has a supercar, Honda & Toyota had supercars, etc. But that did not make these brand sporty-performance premium brands? No. It takes a lot more than that.

M models have a serious history and a long tradition - gaining an excellent image & reputation of hard-core sporty performance models: making a huge hallo effect on regular BMW models, which still are essential for BMW brand.

Right now there is absolutely no need for BMW supercar.

And like Scott said: supercars are 15-minute cars. Anybody still talking about SLR today? Or Ford GT? No. Or Zonda? No. Or FXX? No. And when LF-A will be launched, and some new Ferrari, Lambo etc will come out R8 won't be in spotlight anymore. Because new supercars will be better, faster, more exotic.

And with new design philosophy & other technological innovations BMW gained much greater (and longer lasting) publicity - and also having opportunity to present & communicate their sporty image - than non supercar could done that.

Current A8 & S8 was more damaging to BMW image than R8 would ever be - since outclassing E65 7er in home category: sporty luxury image.

Therefore for BMW's sporty performance luxury image new 7er and especially the new 8er are much more important & needed than a supercar. And I can say the same for M & CSL models - based on regular models.

Supercars by non-supercar brands are just wet dreams of motoring world ... In reality they are not as important as it seems.
[SIZE=-1]
You can put lipstick on a pig, in the end, it's still a pig. [/SIZE]

 

[warot]

Mmm, I've had the same idea for some time now too... [Me 'n that Sunny chap - we're on the same wavelength I tell you] Lotus would be a fabulous co-brand for BMW.

And with the Lotus brand, you're not limited to having to make Elise-based niche models only. Famous names like the Esprit and Eclat could be revised for supecar and grand-touring coupe applications respectively. The Lotuses would then get the one thing that kept them on the brink of greatness: a really good engine.

~~~

Warot, I believe that a moniker steeped in motoring exclusivity like that of the CSL badge shouldn't be bandied about frivolously. I don't think BMW or their consumers need an M5 CSL (sounds contradictory as it is...) nor an M6 CSL for that matter. The CSL treatment should be reserved for exclusively for the M3 and another smaller M-style coupe. A 135 CSL sounds better than a tii I reckon.

I agree that the CSL name should only be kept to Coupes only. I just think that it might be worthwhile looking at making CSL more marketable... not to the point of spreading it across ala AMG. But just provide an even more hardcore car...
For example:
MCoupe CSL
M3 CSL
M6 CSL
1 Series something CSL

These are enticing ideas imo, and these cars will be absolute rockets. It creates a whole other niche, although I understand people will be against it

 

[coolraoul]

?????

BMW have been without supercar in their portfolio for 27 years! Since 1981 when M1 production ended (and it was in production from 1978 - 1981).

8-series & Z8 were not considered as supercars. They were just flagship GT & roadster. And their successors are coming in the near future.

So, in this 27 years without supercar BMW managed to gain the sportiest image within premium brands, and even became #1 premium brand in the world (saleswise), and managed to retain the sportiest image. I don't think absence / presence of supercar changes everything. Because BMW did not gain sporty image because of that few years when the had M1 in their portfolio!!!

Audi was not considered as sporty brand. Nor was Lexus. That's why they need supercars. It's an instant try to get sporty image. A supercar without sporty core models means nothing!

Btw, once more: MB has a super car, Ford has a super car, Nissan has a supercar, Honda & Toyota had supercars, etc. But that did not make these brand sporty-performance premium brands? No. It takes a lot more than that.

M models have a serious history and a long tradition - gaining an excellent image & reputation of hard-core sporty performance models: making a huge hallo effect on regular BMW models, which still are essential for BMW brand.

Right now there is absolutely no need for BMW supercar.

And like Scott said: supercars are 15-minute cars. Anybody still talking about SLR today? Or Ford GT? No. Or Zonda? No. Or FXX? No. And when LF-A will be launched, and some new Ferrari, Lambo etc will come out R8 won't be in spotlight anymore. Because new supercars will be better, faster, more exotic.

And with new design philosophy & other technological innovations BMW gained much greater (and longer lasting) publicity - and also having opportunity to present & communicate their sporty image - than non supercar could done that.

Current A8 & S8 was more damaging to BMW image than R8 would ever be - since outclassing E65 7er in home category: sporty luxury image.

Therefore for BMW's sporty performance luxury image new 7er and especially the new 8er are much more important & needed than a supercar. And I can say the same for M & CSL models - based on regular models.

Supercars by non-supercar brands are just wet dreams of motoring world ... In reality they are not as important as it seems.
[SIZE=-1]
You can put lipstick on a pig, in the end, it's still a pig. [/SIZE]

Good points for sure.

But i still think BMW shouldn't be the only one without a sporty flagship. Especially not BMW.

I think Mercedes did not advertise enough about the SLR, that's why it is not that visible, however a lot of person I know, and who are really everything but car nuts, know and love the SLR. Mercedes has not the same image as before, with F1 and the SLR, they now have a youger image. That's the only thing I give to the credit of Disaster Schrempp.

The R8 is heavily advertised by Audi, and therefore is well-known, and will do a lot of good to Audi.

Of course BMW was 27 years without supercars. But so were its competitors. Now Mercedes, Audi, Lexus have such cars, and even have serious M3 and M5 competitors..

I don't understand...BMW should be about passion and dreams, not only about money, cold numbers and cost-cutting programs. They have enough resources I think to develop a cool sportcar, they even have a perfect V10 to fit in it.

I understand the need to make money. But it should be used by the engineers to create their dreamcars.

A company without dreams, that always plays the safe card, is not a company I'm interested in, to be honest.

 

[Cashmere]

oh btw, I completely disagree with the a supercar being "a 15 minute car". Thats the lamest excuse for BMW to not make a supercar. By those measures it would make the X5 a 1 minute car and the 1 series a 1 second car.

The SLR is still a drop dead gorgeous head turner and will be even after 20 years. IMO it raised Mercedes stature to a level of absolute motoring perfection. Something I expected BMW to do long before their rivals.

 

[EnI]

Good points for sure.

But i still think BMW shouldn't be the only one without a sporty flagship. Especially not BMW.

The R8 is heavily advertised by Audi, and therefore is well-known, and will do a lot of good to Audi.

Audi is already a very established brand (except in US market). Like I said: supercar alone would not change the perception of the brand. Excellent core models (eg. A4, A6, A8 etc) will. And I can prove it: Audi image was boosted by latest A8, A6, A3 & A4 models - especially being very sporty oriented & of very high fit&finish (while eg BMW & MB struggled with quality issues, and E65 was too porky to fight A8). And that was before R8 supercar - which will just confirm the earned image.

Of course BMW was 27 years without supercars. But so were its competitors. Now Mercedes, Audi, Lexus have such cars, and even have serious M3 and M5 competitors..

True. But making a supercar just for the sake of it??? Doesn't make any sense. I would not approve it If I were a member of the Board. And btw all those brands needed supercar to gain sporty image - while BMW do not need such instant image booster.

I don't understand...BMW should be about passion and dreams, not only about money, cold numbers and cost-cutting programs. They have enough resources I think to develop a cool sportcar, they even have a perfect V10 to fit in it.

I understand the need to make money. But it should be used by the engineers to create their dreamcars.

A company without dreams, that always plays the safe card, is not a company I'm interested in, to be honest.

IMO BMW is very engineering driven company - but lately marketing factor is much more important ... So the company is leaning to being consumer driven. But still sticking with core brand's values.

And the point of the company is to find the best compromise to please all 3 most important subjects: owners / investors, customers, and employees.

It's not enough to materializing dreams of one subject only, or two. It has to please all 3 of them. Rover episode was a shock therapy for BMW - they are much more careful by making strategic business moves.
But there are still some risky moves being made - eg. new radical design / styling; making new niche segments; etc. So BMW are not playing safe card very strictly, nor being without dreams (hint: BMW Welt).

Regarding M engineers: cars like M3 CSL is a huge challenge. To make impossible possible. It's much easier to make a super-performance car from scratch than make it from an existing donor-model.
And the new 8er will be very interesting task as well.

BMW won't offer supercar only to show the world they can do it.
Again: the decision for such a car should be (and will be) supported by a rational reasons: eg. a huge demand from customers; a need for instant image boost; as a celebration for successful engagement in motosport (F1 Championship victory) - eg. R8 is also a celebration of Audi's success in LeMans series.


PS: supercars are "silicon boobs" of automotive world. A wet dream, a porn, a vulgar excess. How many of you would marry a porn star with fake boobs?

 

[Zafiro]

oh btw, I completely disagree with the a supercar being "a 15 minute car". Thats the lamest excuse for BMW to not make a supercar. By those measures it would make the X5 a 1 minute car and the 1 series a 1 second car.

bmw will sell many many more X5 and 1er but very few supercars. Building a X5 and 1er is more logical to build than a supercar no one can afford.

 

[Sunny]

If you don't count the true Italian exotic only manufacturers (Ferrari and Lamborghini), a true Super car happens very rarily in a manufacturer's life time. Think about it, Porsche has had 2 in its modern existence. Mercedes has had 1. Audi 0 (no R8 is not a supercar, neither was NSX). Jaguar 1 (not counting the very limited XJ15). BMW 1 (not counting BMW's involvement with McLaren F1). I am sure another one will come from BMW sometime in the future, but to clamor for a second BMW super car right now sounds a lot like a childish "I want it right now" tantrum.

 

[vedjo01]

Blah,blah..blah..I could have draw it better that AutoZeitung artists .No,seriously now..IMO,BMW should develop 2 or 3 CSL versions ot their M badged car,like Andreas said..and leave super car out of the game for now..I belive that most of us think that way,as BMW fans and sport car fans equally.
Give us 150-200 kgs lighter and 30-40 HP more powerfull M3 and M6 and would work just fine by me .

 

[coolraoul]

If you don't count the true Italian exotic only manufacturers (Ferrari and Lamborghini), a true Super car happens very rarily in a manufacturer's life time. Think about it, Porsche has had 2 in its modern existence. Mercedes has had 1. Audi 0 (no R8 is not a supercar, neither was NSX). Jaguar 1 (not counting the very limited XJ15). BMW 1 (not counting BMW's involvement with McLaren F1). I am sure another one will come from BMW sometime in the future, but to clamor for a second BMW super car right now sounds a lot like a childish "I want it right now" tantrum.

When i say supercar I don't mean a CGT or a Zonda, an R8/911 competitor will do...

Anyway, I understand your point EnI, even if I don't agree...
That was an interesting discussion