M1 AutoZeitung: New "M1" supercar from BMW?

[SCOTT27]

"I agree that the CSL name should only be kept to Coupes only. I just think that it might be worthwhile looking at making CSL more marketable... not to the point of spreading it across ala AMG. But just provide an even more hardcore car...
For example:
MCoupe CSL
M3 CSL
M6 CSL
1 Series something CSL

These are enticing ideas imo, and these cars will be absolute rockets. It creates a whole other niche, although I understand people will be against it"

Good you understand the direction we have taken. For one supercar we can have many other identifiable premium products which put performance and weight at the forefront.

Everything begins with the 1er and then the expansion continues upwards. - We especially want that era of the 2002 and the heritage of the E30 we want performance in our profitable products we want to show that no other manufacturer can compete here with the tradition and heritage of the small BMW , We want to be at the forefront in small performance Coupes just like where we were before.
We have the ability to progress and all that input can be squandered on just one car which in these times is not required.

It is been discussed many times before but the management decison on such image projects is clear that such a product would be the forefront of "Efficient Dynamics" meaning possibly using hydrogen or hybrid technology as a means of progressive performance. Anything else would tend to eventually become unnoticed.

 

[Guibo]

PS: supercars are "silicon boobs" of automotive world. A wet dream, a porn, a vulgar excess. How many of you would marry a porn star with fake boobs?

If actually presented with that option, there might be more takers than you'd imagine. But marriage seems so fatal; how about a "lease?"

Why does BMW not want to offer CSL versions in North America?

Good question. Did anyone answer it yet? I looked, but I may have missed it. Has BMW done any survey in the US to try to answer this question? Surely with the success of the Elise and GT3, plus limited entry of CLK Black Series) and clamor on various forums for the CSL, there is some market for this.

For SCOTT27:
As for weight and wanting the "era of the 2002," don't you think the 1er coupe has missed the mark somewhat? Not only does the base 128i seem overly burdened with standard equipment, it even looks heavy. It's supposed to convey a more youthful, fun image. Yet the color choices seem right out of a 5- or 7-Series options list. If you've seen a car like BMW's own restored 2002tii in person, I think you'll know what I mean.

 

[martinbo]

Your claims are extremely contradictory.

I'm sorry. I don't understand what you're saying.
a) I'm not claiming anything.
b) Where is the extreme contradiction in what I've said?

Is it that BMW are making a supercar? Not my claim but you're welcome to buy EVO 115 if you wish.

Is it an extreme contradiction that Audi have narrowed the driving dynamics gap infinitesimally close to BMW with the RS4 and perhaps even surpassed this with the R8?

With rivals closing the driving dynamics gap to core BMW models it is essential for BMW to focus even more on development on core platforms - to gain advantage over competitors again, not focusing on supercar (especially the M division).

If focusing on mid-engined supercar BMW could risk core models fell behind some rivals. And that would be fatal for BMW brand.

Mid-engined supercar does not make the brand sporty-performance oriented. C'mon even Nissan has a supercar. And Ford has it as well.
Does that make Ford & Nissan sporty-performance oriented brands? No.

Supercar is not essential to BMW. It's an ace card which will be played when needed. Won't be just a "me too" move.

I agree to an extent that BMW launching a mid-engined supercar would look like a bit of playing catch-up with Audi. My sentiments are the same as yours regarding a "me too" reaction.

But the question I ask then is, what ought BMW to do to raise the prominence of its high performance capability? M-Division models of otherwise mainstream products alone can't sustain BMW's and M Division's status. The M5 and M6 are impressive - always - but they don't capture the hearts and imagination of the general car buying public. Popular opinion is often what dictates the purchasing decisions of the wealthy. And I bet my bottom dollar that the R8 is an unwelcome competitor (on the pricelists and in image stakes) to the M6. There is a two year waiting list for the R8 down here. M6's are available off the floor and there's only around R 200,000.00 difference in price between the two.

BMW need a supercar, I think. I don't necessarily feel it has to be mid-engined. It could be a front-mid design made from exotic materials and a tweaked S85. What it needs to be though, is absolutely and undeniably beautiful in order to capture the imagination of the car-loving public.

 

[martinbo]

Also, I must just add that the Audi R8 straddles the boundary between sportscar and true supercar. I mean, it certainly more exotic than a cooking 911 but hardly as much as a Superleggera

 

[PanterroR]

BMW need a supercar, I think. I don't necessarily feel it has to be mid-engined. It could be a front-mid design made from exotic materials and a tweaked S85. What it needs to be though, is absolutely and undeniably beautiful in order to capture the imagination of the car-loving public.

Well said and of course, i agree.

 

[coolraoul]

I fully agree Martinbo.

My feeling is that BMW is a bit too over-confident on that matter, they still have a relatively young, dynamic and sporty image.

But with too many big and heavy cars and few real passion-carrier (an M3 is basically a 3-Series with quad-exhaust, not the thing that turnes heads) it could change fast.

The 1-Series Coupe is approximatively 30kgs lighter than a 3-series, quite expensive and not really sporty loking. Saying it's a 2002 is good, but it needs more than that.

When you look at the line-up, what possibly can make Average Joe dream? If you put Audi, MB and Beemers line-up on a parking, be sure nobody will look at the Beemers.

Cars like the R8, the SLR, the CLK Black Series are real eye-catcher, and they are the kind of cars that do a lot for the image.
They make the young boys dream, and they later will buy the cars of the brand that made them dream.

It is not because BMW HAS this image that they should say "we are sporty enough, we don't need a sportcar, Audi tries it because tey don't have this image yet".

Do not underestimate the competition and the power of dreams.

Who does not go forwards, goes backwards. For me BMW does not go forwards on this, and they better be careful.

You know...for you and me, an M3 is a dream-car. But today, the young boys dream R8, SLR, CGT, Ferrari. Not M3 or M5. Even CSL does not change anything to that. They need something that really stands out, now that even Opel has a "competition division".

And if the young generation does not dream on your cars, but dream on cars the competitioon makes, you have lost a big battle.

 

[EnI]

I'm sorry. I don't understand what you're saying.
a) I'm not claiming anything.
b) Where is the extreme contradiction in what I've said?

I was referring to your claim when you stated BMW core models were losing edge over the competitors, and therefore BMW desperately needed a "supercar".



My reaction was an explanation saying such thinking is wrong. The offered solution was wrong.
Mind if rivals are closing the gap BMW should be able to widen it again: by making core models better, not by making a supercar. That would not solve the problem, just they symptom (for a short time) - since it would be an instant & purely cosmetic marketing move.

I agree to an extent that BMW launching a mid-engined supercar would look like a bit of playing catch-up with Audi. My sentiments are the same as yours regarding a "me too" reaction.

I'm glad we finally agree on something.

But the question I ask then is, what ought BMW to do to raise the prominence of its high performance capability? M-Division models of otherwise mainstream products alone can't sustain BMW's and M Division's status. The M5 and M6 are impressive - always - but they don't capture the hearts and imagination of the general car buying public. Popular opinion is often what dictates the purchasing decisions of the wealthy.

Oh, really? If that was true nobody would be buying BMWs today since they are "fugly" and featuring "idiotic iDrive" - since a you know popular opinion claims that (BMW being fugly & iDrive is idiotic).

And again: people won't buy more 1er coupes, M3s, X6s etc if BMW had a supercar in their portfolio. Nor BMW would be able to claim higher prices since "hey, we have a supercar in portfolio therefore our core models are more special". Motoring enthusiasts are buying BMW cars since EVERY models drives sporty & is fun to drive (high level of driver engagement). If that wasn't a fact no supercar could not help to overturn it.

And btw, cars are made for experiencing the motoring, not to catching imagination. Check the lipstick on pig remark in my previous posts.

And M cars can't really be compared to AMG or RS - not talking performance wise but production & sales wise! - since M cars are "supercars for common people", much more available than RS & AMG cars which are extremely low-volume cars. And that's the main point of BMW brand: to offer hard-core motoring experience to a broader base, not just to car-collecting enthusiasts, or automotive porn lovers. This has been so successful formula now everybody else are copying it (by offering ultra-sporty spin-offs: AMG, RS, F, R etc).

BMW need a supercar, I think. I don't necessarily feel it has to be mid-engined. It could be a front-mid design made from exotic materials and a tweaked S85.

No they don't. They really don't. It's like asking an extremely beautiful woman with great personality & character to do a boob job just because everybody else is doing it, and to please the imagination of porn lovers. It's so form over function / content.

Like I said many times before: according to my sources BMW are planning a hard-core M-exclusive spin-off coupe from upcoming new Z8 roadster. A car that press name it "M10" or "M9". But that won't be a classic supercar since it won't have an original / dedicated platform. It will be a donor platform (new Z8), yet M will put their magic hands on it. The car will be something similar to upcoming SL Black Series.

But do not expect a calssic supercar with dedicated platform - either mid-engined or not.

What it needs to be though, is absolutely and undeniably beautiful in order to capture the imagination of the car-loving public.

Do you really think BMW would produce a supercar just to please automotive porn lovers?

And members of automotive forums, and readers of certain automotive magazines, and public of certain auto (= lusting for their imagination to be pleased).

 

[Merc1]

And M cars can't really be compared to AMG or RS - not talking performance wise but production & sales wise! - since M cars are "supercars for common people", much more available than RS & AMG cars which are extremely low-volume cars. And that's the main point of BMW brand: to offer hard-core motoring experience to a broader base, not just to car-collecting enthusiasts, or automotive porn lovers. This has been so successful formula now everybody else are copying it (by offering ultra-sporty spin-offs: AMG, RS, F, R etc).

What? How is AMG copying anything from M? AMG has been around 40 years or so.

M

 

[coolraoul]

And again: people won't buy more 1er coupes, M3s, X6s etc if BMW had a supercar in their portfolio. Nor BMW would be able to claim higher prices since "hey, we have a supercar in portfolio therefore our core models are more special". Motoring enthusiasts are buying BMW cars since EVERY models drives sporty & is fun to drive (high level of driver engagement). If that wasn't a fact no supercar could not help to overturn it.

And btw, cars are made for experiencing the motoring, not to catching imagination. Check the lipstick on pig remark in my previous posts.

And M cars can't really be compared to AMG or RS - not talking performance wise but production & sales wise! - since M cars are "supercars for common people", much more available than RS & AMG cars which are extremely low-volume cars. And that's the main point of BMW brand: to offer hard-core motoring experience to a broader base, not just to car-collecting enthusiasts, or automotive porn lovers. This has been so successful formula now everybody else are copying it (by offering ultra-sporty spin-offs: AMG, RS, F, R etc).




No they don't. They really don't. It's like asking an extremely beautiful woman with great personality & character to do a boob job just because everybody else is doing it, and to please the imagination of porn lovers. It's so form over function / content.

Like I said many times before: according to my sources BMW are planning a hard-core M-exclusive spin-off coupe from upcoming new Z8 roadster. A car that press name it "M10" or "M9". But that won't be a classic supercar since it won't have an original / dedicated platform. It will be a donor platform (new Z8), yet M will put their magic hands on it. The car will be something similar to upcoming SL Black Series.

But do not expect a calssic supercar with dedicated platform - either mid-engined or not.




Do you really think BMW would produce a supercar just to please automotive porn lovers?

And members of automotive forums, and readers of certain automotive magazines, and public of certain auto (= lusting for their imagination to be pleased).

I think you forget one thing: the majority of 3-Series are sold to people who does not know the significance of steering feel.
BMW does not sell to enthusiasts any more. Not all clients are fascinated by Beemers driving feel. They buy Beemers because they suit the image they want to give to the people. They coud drive like gasrbage, they still would buy it.

I don't say BMW should stop making fabulous cars.
I'm saying BMW should also care about its image, it is a fundamental selling point.

Sure, a supercar will not double the sells.
But it will prepare the young generations. If a boy has the poster of a Beemer in his room, there are strong possibility he will try to buy a Beemer later. If you don't offer him anything worth putting in his room, you will loose your good, attractive image for the future.
You will say it is very simplistic, and you will be right. But, in a sense, I think it is not false. Dream are an important part in the process of buying a premium car.

 

[Zafiro]

Throw the supercar fantasy in the dumpster, bmw do not need a SLR/CGT competitior.
BMW need more "affordable" sportcars and not one supercar, they need several sportcars. And that will be better for what BMW stand for. I have already named what models Im thinking about.

 

[Merc1]

A sports cars, supercar, whatever, something besides another crossover or goofy hatchback sedan concept, suv or crossover.

M

 

[EnI]

What? How is AMG copying anything from M? AMG has been around 40 years or so.

M

Yes, they have been. Since 1967. But not as in-house MB tuner.

Officially they have been in-house tuner from let's say from 1991 when MB acquired 51% stake in AMG, while only in 2005 MB (DC) become a 100% owner of AMG.

And I was referring to in-house tuned performance models.

 

[Merc1]

Yes, they have been. Since 1967. But not as in-house MB tuner.

Officially they have been in-house tuner from let's say from 1991 when MB acquired 51% stake in AMG, while only in 2005 MB (DC) become a 100% owner of AMG.

And I was referring to in-house tuned performance models.

Absolutely none of this has anything to do with BMW's M or "copying" from BMW.

M

 

[coolraoul]

Throw the supercar fantasy in the dumpster, bmw do not need a SLR/CGT competitior.
BMW need more "affordable" sportcars and not one supercar, they need several sportcars. And that will be better for what BMW stand for. I have already named what models Im thinking about.

A sports cars, supercar, whatever, something besides another crossover or goofy hatchback sedan concept, suv or crossover.

M

Exactly my feeling. An R8 competitor will do, even a front-engined.

It must be a dream-carrier, a car made of passion, to enhance BMW's ability to do gorgeous sportcar and not only sporty-oriented sedans and suvs. To make kids dream, and to establish BMW even further.

These focussed, spectacular sportcars are quite visible, stars drive them, rappers use them in their videos...they are glamorous, they are passion.

Do you think Porsche NEEDED the CGT? They are stronger then ever, win a lot of money, and were not part of VAG when they released it.
But Porsche is about passion, and they developped the CGT with their heart.

Cayenne to win money...and to allow them to build what they really want: the CGT.

BMW should have the same view.
They are carmaker, remember? Not only cashmaker. And sometimes, a bit more passion and crazyness can make the cashmaker even more efficient.

BMW has this cash now, it may won't always be the case, I don't know, but what I know is that a BMW sportcar like an R8 will not harm BMW reputation. It can do only good. Because BMW should not become too reasonable and too serious imo.

 

[EnI]

I think you forget one thing: the majority of 3-Series are sold to people who does not know the significance of steering feel.
BMW does not sell to enthusiasts any more. Not all clients are fascinated by Beemers driving feel. They buy Beemers because they suit the image they want to give to the people. They coud drive like gasrbage, they still would buy it.

Not really. A lot of customers still opts for BMW because they like how they drive. Since that's the main selling point of BMW cars. Yes, today the difference among direct rivals are smaller yet people still opt for BMW. Although they never explore the whole potential of the car - they just feel good to own a car with better potential than a rival model.

And finally: Yes. Many people do buy BMW only due the badge. But - like you said - that's because they identify with core BMW brand values: dynamism, power, agility, sporty performance, premium, modernity, pioneering etc. And as you can see it is working.

You boost something when it is slowing down, or stop working - not when the thing is working extremely well.

And be sure BMW can handle the brand management very well.

I don't say BMW should stop making fabulous cars.
I'm saying BMW should also care about its image, it is a fundamental selling point.

BMW image is fine. And will be fine till BMW will produce sportier cars than the direct rivals. Whole product line counts, not just one model. Like I said: one supercar does not change image. It can enhance it, but not change it. There are no instant solutions for image building. And BMW image is just fine, and when it will be in danger I'm sure BMW will opt for an super-sporty image boosting car. But right now it's just too early.

The problem with BMW brand is that majority of luxury buyers still do not consider BMW as a pure luxury brand (premium sporty brand -yes, luxury brand -no). Ironic. Having to strong sporty-performance image for their own good. Therefore BMW are now focused to polish their luxury image more fiercely.

A sporty-performance luxury 4dr GT is much better choice right now.

While Sporty-performance image is nursed by involving in F1, and making great core models, and offering performance models like M and M CSL.

Sure, a supercar will not double the sells.
But it will prepare the young generations. If a boy has the poster of a Beemer in his room, there are strong possibility he will try to buy a Beemer later. If you don't offer him anything worth putting in his room, you will loose your good, attractive image for the future.
You will say it is very simplistic, and you will be right. But, in a sense, I think it is not false. Dream are an important part in the process of buying a premium car.

For young customers a car like 1er coupe is more essential than a supercar.

And btw, do you really thing everybody is into supercars???

I doubt many BMW enthusiasts have M1 posters in their room. Even the young boys. But their interest in BMW brand is still much higher than in eg. Audi brand. And one R8 won't change that.

But ... when Audi will start adding cars like R4, A7, A5 SB & cabrio that will be more dangerous. One model (R8) does not change image - but a bunch of sporty-oriented models do. And BMW are aware of that.

And BMW's only weapon to those cars will be even better BMW models. Not a supercar. That would be a cosmetic move.

Btw, BMW will offer a bunch of performance models in the future - besides all cross-over models.

Eg. more M models, new CSL models, more "tii"-like models, new roadsters & coupes (Z2, Z8, 8er, M9 / M10 etc).

But there will be no supercar.

I know I'm like a broken record, but again: be sure BMW can manage brands extremely well.





PS: a big luxury super-sporty roadster is coming (new Z8). And an M-exclusive coupe spin-off (M9 / M10). I think that will be sufficient. Think BMW California Spyder Concept.

 

[Merc1]

And finally: Yes. Many people do buy BMW only due the badge. But - like you said - that's because they identify with core BMW brand values: dynamism, power, agility, sporty performance, premium, modernity, pioneering etc. And as you can see it is working.

I don't know about elsewhere around the world, but in the U.S. it isn't nearly that deep for the majority of 328i drivers who found their way to BMW because of a good (i.e. cheap) leasing deal. The overwhelming majority of car buyers and yes even BMW buyers aren't even close to be being this deeply in tune with all of that or some type dyed in the wool enthusiast.

M

 

[PanterroR]

Where do you guys find energy and will to talk about the same thing over and over again...?

 

[coolraoul]

I know I'm like a broken record, but again: be sure BMW can manage brands extremely well.

That is very true. And I of course am no marketing-expert or advertisement-specialist.

What I insist on, is that a lot of 3-Series buyers don't buy it for its sporty driving characteristics but for the image it gives to the world. For someone not really interested in cars it is very hard to spot differences in the way a car drives.
This is why a lot of people buy vans or pick-ups or things like that, they just don't feel it's garbage. You can't expect from every client to be a car-expert able to detect a pressure loss in the rear-left tyres only by going into the car.

Concerning the "M1", I only give my feeling... which is that today BMW has a strong, dynamic image, but that they shouldn't wait till it's broken down to fix it. Giving it some polish from times to times can't hurt. Especially with menacing competitors.

I think that in our actual world, "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is a nonsense.

 

[coolraoul]

@ Tyc, I find it interesting and quite funny to discuss it, especially as everybody has very valuable views and arguments. Such debates makes things go further I think.

What I regreat is that we don't have precious "insiders" or people in-the-know like EnI or Scott, so we can't really discuss as deep because we don't have the real explanations behing the moves and decisions of the brand. And sometimes I am sure we are missing some important points...

So these very interesting discussions are only possible concerning BMW..

 

[EnI]

^

Be sure BMW will offer a super-sporty car when needed.

Now it's not the right time.

I agree "don't fix if not broken" rule is a bit old-fashioned.

The point is to prevent things from getting broken. And changes are necessary to keep in touch with (or stay ahead of) rivals. Yet the timing when apply such changes / novelties is crucial. It won't have a reduced effect (or even none) if changes are introduced too early or too late.

And as you can see BMW are not afraid of making changes (radical change in design philosophy, investing much in EfficientDynamics program etc).