Vs Autozeitung: BMW 335i Touring vs Audi S4 Avant vs MB C55 AMG T-Modell
- Thread starter Zafiro
- Start date
Yperion
Cornering Kingpin
It's lighter and more fuel efficient, yet performs as well.
Audi's 2.0 TFSI also performs better than BMW's 2.5 lt I6 but from an engineering point of view a 6 cylinder has the advantage over a 4 cylinder.
Zafiro
Supreme Roadmaster
If V8 is not better than a I6 then why new M3 will have a V8? And why M5 has a V10?
that has nothing to do with it
V10 had to do with formula 1 and from merketing view. M3 using a v8 is becuase BMw found it there wasnt much to more power to take out from the engine (I6) and it was time to move on. Also M5 is now using V10 so M3 can get a V8 instead. Also F1 cars are now using V8.
If V10 is a better engine than a V8 then M3 would get a V10 as well.
No, bmw using v8 or v10 has nothing do to with what is best. BMW change engines cylinders sometimes, nothing new
warot
Track Technician
How so? I don't really see it. You gotta define what you mean by better. When you say perform, do you mean more hp and tq? Each engine has it's +'s and -'s
You have to compare apples with apples. For example, I remember when Top Gear tested the TT, they said the 2.0 was actually their pick over the 6 cylinder.
Sunny
Premium
If V8 is not better than a I6 then why new M3 will have a V8? And why M5 has a V10?
You should really think twice before making dumb ass blanket statements like that. Most engine configurations have their pros and cons, making each better at certain things.
chonkoa
Aerodynamic Artisan
If V8 is not better than a I6 then why new M3 will have a V8? And why M5 has a V10?
I don't mean to take sides, but there is a need for the M3 to use a bigger powerplant without increasing litre/cylinder beyond 0.5 to respond to competition.
I am also aware that for the time-being, M versions are NA and nof FI engines, of course this might change by the flip of a coin.
So, in order to have more power without going FI on the I6 will require increasing the bore on the I6, which I believe BMW does not intend on following: thus 4.0 litre V8 in the upcoming M3.
Now between Inlines and V or W engines, every engine has a frequency at which it achieves harmonic balance.
For six cylinder engines with BMW, maybe I6 offers better balance than V6 with their chasis, and perhaps V8 offer better balance than another 8 cylinder configuration with their chasis, I don't know.
But when you mount an engine on a chasis, you have the take into the account the harmony of the engine and the chasis.
PC Valkyrie
Headlight Hero
Come on guys, let's not get into a shouting match.
The facts are pure and simple. The 335i from BMW is a HUGE step forward in terms of performance compared to cars in its class (A4 3.2, C350, IS350, G35, Acura TL). Before it's introduction, the only way you can get this level of performance is to spend the big bucks and get a M3/C55/S4. Now, you can spend much less money with the 335i and be just as quick (in most situations) as those more special and expensive cars.
Having said that, there are some things the old M3/C55/S4 are still "special" at. First off, these M/AMG/S cars will always remain more exclusive than their standard counterparts. The 335i, is afterall, just a "standard 3 series", as many currrent E46 M3 owners like to point out on BMW forums. Just as the previous B5 S4/RS4, E36 M3, W202 C36/C43 will always remain more "special" over time, so will the B7 S4, E46 M3, W203 C32/C55, even though there will be newer and relatively cheaper cars that will match/or beat their performance in the future. This may sound "snobby", but there IS something special about owning an AMG. You're part of a more exclusive club.
95% of the time, I can't exploit the performance my car can offer simply because I rarely go to the track, just like a 335i owner likely won't be able to fully exploit his car's potential most of the time. All this hype about the 335i's performance is just feeding people's ego about what their car COULD do. So if feeding the ego is what these cars do most of the time for their owners, having the knowledge that you own a M/AMG/S/RS car ADDS to that ego boosting. Another way to look at it is this: why buy designer jeans or a Rolex, when a cheap pair of Levi's or a Timex watch will do just fine?.......because it FEELS good to own something special.
Another point I want to make relates to the argument over engine configurations. As good as the new 335i engine is (and there is no doubt it is damn good in terms of power output), there is a more subjective "advantage" for larger displacement V8/V10 engines. And that is the engine sound. Part of owning a performance car is "feeling" the power. And the sound coming from the engine bay is very important for that "feeling". When I went to the track with a local BMW club earlier this year, I had more than one person come up to me afterwards to tell me how good my V8 sounded. A larger displacement V8 offers more of a deep sounding growl, which is very different than the high pitched metallic scream of the E46 M3. A large V8 generally sounds better (for most people) than any I4 or I6 configuration, regardless of whether there is forced induction or not. Notice how Ferrari's, Lambo's are all naturally aspirated large displacement V8/V12's??
The facts are pure and simple. The 335i from BMW is a HUGE step forward in terms of performance compared to cars in its class (A4 3.2, C350, IS350, G35, Acura TL). Before it's introduction, the only way you can get this level of performance is to spend the big bucks and get a M3/C55/S4. Now, you can spend much less money with the 335i and be just as quick (in most situations) as those more special and expensive cars.
Having said that, there are some things the old M3/C55/S4 are still "special" at. First off, these M/AMG/S cars will always remain more exclusive than their standard counterparts. The 335i, is afterall, just a "standard 3 series", as many currrent E46 M3 owners like to point out on BMW forums. Just as the previous B5 S4/RS4, E36 M3, W202 C36/C43 will always remain more "special" over time, so will the B7 S4, E46 M3, W203 C32/C55, even though there will be newer and relatively cheaper cars that will match/or beat their performance in the future. This may sound "snobby", but there IS something special about owning an AMG. You're part of a more exclusive club.
95% of the time, I can't exploit the performance my car can offer simply because I rarely go to the track, just like a 335i owner likely won't be able to fully exploit his car's potential most of the time. All this hype about the 335i's performance is just feeding people's ego about what their car COULD do. So if feeding the ego is what these cars do most of the time for their owners, having the knowledge that you own a M/AMG/S/RS car ADDS to that ego boosting. Another way to look at it is this: why buy designer jeans or a Rolex, when a cheap pair of Levi's or a Timex watch will do just fine?.......because it FEELS good to own something special.
Another point I want to make relates to the argument over engine configurations. As good as the new 335i engine is (and there is no doubt it is damn good in terms of power output), there is a more subjective "advantage" for larger displacement V8/V10 engines. And that is the engine sound. Part of owning a performance car is "feeling" the power. And the sound coming from the engine bay is very important for that "feeling". When I went to the track with a local BMW club earlier this year, I had more than one person come up to me afterwards to tell me how good my V8 sounded. A larger displacement V8 offers more of a deep sounding growl, which is very different than the high pitched metallic scream of the E46 M3. A large V8 generally sounds better (for most people) than any I4 or I6 configuration, regardless of whether there is forced induction or not. Notice how Ferrari's, Lambo's are all naturally aspirated large displacement V8/V12's??
PanterroR
Lap Time Luminary
As long as their boxer engines kick @$$ in terms of performance when compared to most V8 engines...There's no need for that. Other thing though is if they want to put it in the next 911 gen...
vedjo01
Cornering Connoisseur
Well,I would not count on it because IMO 911 would loose too much with heavy V8 in the tail,especially on handling..BMW showed the way with 3.0 TT and is only naturally that others will try to do something similar in their engine department..IMO
Merc1
Premium
As long as their boxer engines kick @$$ in terms of performance when compared to most V8 engines...There's no need for that. Other thing though is if they want to put it in the next 911 gen...
Well I think they're reaching the limits of what can be done with a naturally aspirated flat 6. I read somewhere that once you pass 3.6-3.8 liters you run into NVH problems. I'm sure they have enough brain power to keep the classic flat 6 alive for another couple of generations of 911. With direct-injection and other little tricks they should be good for a few more rounds.
M
Yperion
Cornering Kingpin
The sound is one of the advantages of a 8 Cyl. compared to a 6 Cyl. engine. Other advantages are smooth operation
(although I6 are very smooth) , large percentage of torque from low RPM , also a V8 technically has more horse power per given displacement.
Zafiro
Supreme Roadmaster
V8 also drink more fuel and generally V8 engines weigh more than I6.
there are advantages and disadvantages with all engines.
PC Valkyrie
Headlight Hero
I'm not so sure about your last statement. You don't "need" a V8 to get >100HP/litre of displacement (the magical number BMW M fans always are proud of).
HP = torque x engine speed x (some coefficients). Torque is the measured twisting force the engine actually makes, which can be measure at the crank or at the drive wheels, while HP is often a calculated value.
To get high torque, you either need large displacment (like the C55), or forced induction (like the 335i). However, that is not the only way to get high HP, as illlustrated beautifully by the E46 M3 and E60 M5. They have relatively smaller displacement engines (and lowish torque), but they depend on high engine speed to compensate. And the only way to get very high engines speeds without blowing up the engine is to have a short stroke (which means the engine can't be that large).
That's why it is relatively rare to have a high reving large displacment engine, while the smaller rev happy engines are always the ones with the >100HP/Litre of displacement. There are exceptions, but this is a general rule. Engines in F1 are the perfect examples of small engines making tons of HP because of super high engine speeds.
Yperion
Cornering Kingpin
True. BMW is also making some of the best V8 and V10 engines in the world so that proves that an I6 configuration (even with turbo) has it's limits.
klier
Premium
Of course. Just look at the F1 engines...all V8 now.
V8 simply has much more potential than a V6/I6. Just like a V10 has that over a V8, and a V12 over a V8.
EnI
Piston Pioneer
EnI
Piston Pioneer
I'm sure they'll deliver it.
But first I hope they'll finally introduce 3.2 FSI with ValveLift - that 300HP baby.
Where is this engine now?
