Vs Autobild: Mercedes-Benz S450 vs Lexus LS460 (PART II)

[Bruce]

.. generally classify these people as non-enthusiasts, except for our member Bruce, who is the exception.

Thanks Wimmer. Although I'm sure there are a few other people like myself around..

For the very same reason, I predict that you see no sense in a VW Phaeton as well. I get where you're going, but I feel that if a brand (like Toyota, or VW) is supported by substance (LS460, Phaeton), I'm willing to look beyond the history/heritage/prestige of a brand to appreciate the car for what it is. After all, it's the car that you're buying... The brand's just for status. And that's where I agree with you, Lexus or VW can never be status symbols.

I agree with a great deal of your statement, James. Nice post

 

[RICHBOY]

If you say so...but given the relatively small numbers Mercedes were sold in in Australia, the number of old ones still on the road represent far in excess the percentage of the market they had when new.

I guess they only send the defective ones to the states. I asked my mechanic weather or not it would be a good idea for my friend to buy a 2003 C-Class, he told me "once it hits 100,000 miles he'll wish he brought a Camry and bank the extra cash". Ask yourself this, why is it Japanese cars depreciate the least? I know I'm taking a un-popular position in this thread, but I didn't join this form to follow along with popular opinion! I honestly don't believe half the people in this form who bash Lexus even mean half the BS they post about them. It's merely a great position to take, and your garenteed many FANBOY's who'll co-sign on any negative remark in regards to them. I would take the new S-Class over the LS any day of the week, but if I only had anuff cash to buy a used one 6 or 7 years old, I wouldn't have to think about it.

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

I guess they only send the defective ones to the states. I asked my mechanic weather or not it would be a good idea for my friend to buy a 2003 C-Class, he told me "once it hits 100,000 miles he'll wish he brought a Camry and bank the extra cash". Ask yourself this, why is it Japanese cars depreciate the least? I know I'm taking a un-popular position in this thread, but I didn't join this form to follow along with popular opinion! I honestly don't believe half the people in this form who bash Lexus even mean half the BS they post about them. It's merely a great position to take, and your garenteed many FANBOY's who'll co-sign on any negative remark in regards to them. I would take the new S-Class over the LS any day of the week, but if I only had anuff cash to buy a used one 6 or 7 years old, I wouldn't have to think about it.

From my experience (and by mine I refer to the experience of my extended family) Japanese cars tend to start giving trouble at around 180000 Kilometers. While I'm not sure how long the Mercedes of the 90's and early 00's would last, as we have changed them every 3-4 years, several of those that we bought in the 80's are still going strong back in Africa.

About the depreciation, In Australia German marques dominate the resale value list. The highest placing Japanese brand is Honda, and Lexus performs very poorly.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Lexus hater in the least. There cars are overall excellent. But I don't buy into this indistructable build and reliability most Lexus Fans continue to harp on about. While it may have rung true for the 1998 LS400, 1999 ES300 and 1998 GS300 bought by my family, the 05 GS300 and 06IS250 have had their fare share of flaws. I attribute this to the fact that previously Lexus were relatively bareboned in terms of features. As they have continued to mimick the Germans obsession with electronics and gizmos, they too have experienced similar problems, if not to the same magnitude.

 

[Bruce]

While it may have rung true for the 1998 LS400, 1999 ES300 and 1998 GS300 bought by my family, the 05 GS300 and 06IS250 have had their fare share of flaws

I'm glad you made this comment. While Lexus' vehicles are still relativley well built and reliable, Lexus' newer cars are most certainly not as reliable and as well built as older models.

In my opinion, while the newer Lexus models have a number of positives over the past models (paint quality, power, features - not that I wan't those "features"), I feel they have somewhat cheapened out on the newer models.

 

[RICHBOY]

I'm glad you made this comment. While Lexus' vehicles are still relativley well built and reliable, Lexus' newer cars are most certainly not as reliable and as well built as older models.

In my opinion, while the newer Lexus models have a number of positives over the past models (paint quality, power, features - not that I wan't those "features"), I feel they have somewhat cheapened out on the newer models.

So then Lexus build quality has dropped off? If so why is it the only place I'm hearing about it is on this form?
I have no problem being wrong, but I want to know what sources you guy's are getting your information from. I was under the impression that the Germans build quality had stepped up, but your saying that Lexus has falled off!

 

[Bruce]

So then Lexus build quality has dropped off? If so why is it the only place I'm hearing about it is on this form?
I have no problem being wrong, but I want to know what sources you guy's are getting your information from. I was under the impression that the Germans build quality had stepped up, but your saying that Lexus has falled off!

RICHBOY, I'm not arguing with about Lexus. Lexus happens to be one of my favourite manufacturers and most everyone on this forum knows that. However, yes I am saying that. I'm not denying Mercedes has stepped up their reliability and quality, because they have. While Lexus' are still great vehicles, they in my opinion are not as good as some of the cars which they once produced.


My source is myself : Who has much experience with Toyota Motorcorp (Below is a list of Toyota vehicles my family has owned)


1978 - Toyota Celica
1982 - Toyota Supra
1988 - Toyota Supra
1988 - Toyota MR2 Supercharged
1991 - Toyota Cressida
1992 - Toyota Camry XLE V6 Sport
1993 - Lexus ES300
1994 - Lexus SC400
1995 - Lexus LS400
1998 - Lexus GS400

Aside from the above list, I have tested various years of LS, ES and GS automobiles.

 

[RICHBOY]

RICHBOY, I'm not arguing with about Lexus. Lexus happens to be one of my favourite manufacturers and most everyone on this forum knows that. However, yes I am saying that. I'm not denying Mercedes has stepped up their reliability and quality, because they have. While Lexus' are still great vehicles, they in my opinion are not as good as some of the cars which they once produced.


My source is myself : Who has much experience with Toyota Motorcorp (Below is a list of Toyota vehicles my family has owned)


1978 - Toyota Celica
1982 - Toyota Supra
1988 - Toyota Supra
1988 - Toyota MR2 Supercharged
1991 - Toyota Cressida
1992 - Toyota Camry XLE V6 Sport
1993 - Lexus ES300
1994 - Lexus SC400
1995 - Lexus LS400
1998 - Lexus GS400

Aside from the above list, I have tested various years of LS, ES and GS automobiles.

I only asked a question, I apologies if it seemed I had a hidden motive. The only thing I don't understand is that you feel that their quality has declined from testing more recent model. So I guess you had problems with those model's during testing? That's kinda odd IMHO. The older models you've owned were built well, but during testing you ran into build quality issues? Amazing, really what's the chances of that, I'm assuming you spent a limited amount of time in test models right? If so that's rather strange!

 

[Bruce]

The only thing I don't understand is that you feel that their quality has declined from testing more recent model. So I guess you had problems with those model's during testing? That's kinda odd IMHO. The older models you've owned were built well, but during testing you ran into build quality issues?

No, I did not suffer any relability troubles while driving any of the newer models or any quality defects. Never said I did, I was simply stating my opinion (which I believe to be informed)

When it comes to build quality it is my personal opinion that the newer Lexus models are not as well built as previous models. When I mean "build quality", I mean most everything. Dash plastics, door handles, buttons..

I'm am not downplaying Lexus' newer vehicles, In fact I happen to think highly of most of them (I'd buy an LS460 in a minute, over an S-Class, 7er or A8) Same goes for the IS, I'd rather have it over the 3er, C or A4. It's just that I found those particular items to not be quite as good as previous Lexus models.

Amazing, really what's the chances of that, I'm assuming you spent a limited amount of time in test models right? If so that's rather strange!

Some were limited time and some were not. Doesn't take rocket science though.. Especially when one has had much experience with many vehicles from that particular manfacturer.


When it comes to reliability I agree with Mr. Mercedes for the most part. While they have adapted a number of technological features, they have traded some of their reliability.

 

[Mr. Chigga_Chan]

Is is so hard to comprehend that its possible that Toyota's quality may be deteriorating? Perhaps they have fallen into the trap that the Germans have. Not to say thats true, but you cannot dismiss the possibility of stagnation from the Japanese.

They aren't "test" models, he has just sampled the cars themselves.

It makes sense that you would see many older Japanese models around because of the massive volume of cars that were sold compared to older German models. Especially in the area where I live where the population leans heavily toward asian cars, you would still see several MB and BMW models that are over 10 years old if not 15 year old vehicles driving around.

If you could compare the initial quality of those cars new, and their condition now, that might be noteworthy. Problem is there are so many factors that play a role in how reliable the car is, based on maintenence, conditions of driving, owner care etc.

Oh well, the S450 rocks.

 

[Bruce]

Is is so hard to comprehend that its possible that Toyota's quality may be deteriorating? Perhaps they have fallen into the trap that the Germans have. Not to say thats true, but you cannot dismiss the possibility of stagnation from the Japanese....

They aren't "test" models, he has just sampled the cars themselves.

Thank you

I'm am not trying to argue with anyone here. Simply stating my observations (which I can tell you understand)

 

[RICHBOY]

No, I did not suffer any relability troubles while driving any of the newer models or any quality defects. Never said I did, I was simply stating my opinion (which I believe to be informed)

When it comes to build quality it is my personal opinion that the newer Lexus models are not as well built as previous models. When I mean "build quality", I mean most everything. Dash plastics, door handles, buttons..

I'm am not downplaying Lexus' newer vehicles, In fact I happen to think highly of most of them (I'd buy an LS460 in a minute, over an S-Class, 7er or A8) Same goes for the IS, I'd rather have it over the 3er, C or A4. It's just that I found those particular items to not be quite as good as previous Lexus models.




Some were limited time and some were not. Doesn't take rocket science though.. Especially when one has had much experience with many vehicles from that particular manfacturer.


When it comes to reliability I agree with Mr. Mercedes for the most part. While they have adapted a number of technological features, they have traded some of their reliability.

Thanks for clearifing your points. I guess the only place we don't see eye 2 eye is the assumption that this current generation isn't as well built as previous ones. I'm not going to assume fault until it's proven to be true.

 

[cawimmer430]

And that's where I agree with you, Lexus or VW can never be status symbols.

BTW Wimmer, where's part I?

I never posted Part I because I never bought the issue and when I heard about it, I couldn't find the article on Autobild's website and the links on other forums wouldn't work.

BTW, call me crazy, but to me, Volkswagen has more prestige than Lexus for the sole reason that they've been around longer, have produced innovative cars and have enjoyed a huge cult following. You don't hear of "Toyota Corolla Meetups" like you do about the various VW meetups in Europe and the infamous WATERFEST in the US.

 

[cawimmer430]

Listen "Mr. Mercedes" with the exception of one model the E-Class, Mercedes, Audi, BMW, and even my favorite brand Porsche can't compete with the reliability of the Japanese! Say what ya want, I don't see 20 year old Mercedes every day, heck not even in a weeks time! For you or anyone else to claim the Germans, Italians, or Americans are on the level with the Japanese build quality is insulting. But most of all goes to show that you and anyone else taking such a position is the ultimate FANBOY!! I wish this wasn't the case but as it stands now that's the way it is!! I brought my fiances brother a 1990 Honda Accord with 377,000 miles on it in 2000, this car has outlast every German, and American car I've had since then. No nickle in diming, just a new head lamp, tires, brake pads, that's about it. I have high expectations for the current Audi's, Benzes, and Bimmers to match the Japanese but come on, know body buy's 10 year old German saloons with expectations any longer than a year or two! Take your blindfolds off.

Reliability and Build Quality are two different things.

The Japanese might have the edge in reliability, but when it comes to build quality, the Europeans are just as good, if not a little better.

And please don't call people "fanboys" on this site, that's almost bordering on personal insults. It's ok to talk about the losers on Autospies as fanboys, but not in our established forum community here.

 

[cawimmer430]

Thanks Wimmer. Although I'm sure there are a few other people like myself around..

There definitely are, I just have not met them yet.

 

[Mr. M]

I never posted Part I because I never bought the issue and when I heard about it, I couldn't find the article on Autobild's website and the links on other forums wouldn't work.

BTW, call me crazy, but to me, Volkswagen has more prestige than Lexus for the sole reason that they've been around longer, have produced innovative cars and have enjoyed a huge cult following. You don't hear of "Toyota Corolla Meetups" like you do about the various VW meetups in Europe and the infamous WATERFEST in the US.

I'll keep a lookout for Part I.

That's true, VW has a cult following for its iconic Beetle, Golf and even Passat models. But it's virtually unheard of in the high-end market... That was what I was referring to.

 

[cawimmer430]

I'll keep a lookout for Part I.

That's true, VW has a cult following for its iconic Beetle, Golf and even Passat models. But it's virtually unheard of in the high-end market... That was what I was referring to.

As much as I like Phaeton and respect VW for this technological marvel, I feel it was a wrong move.

VW never stood for luxury but a car for the masses. Over the years, they've established themselves as a somewhat "elevated mainstream manufacturer" meaning that they're slightly above other mainstreamers like Toyota, Nissan etc. in terms of target market (more expensive).

VW should continue to do what it does best. Design some of the best-looking and fun-to-drive mainstreamers in its segment. Leave the luxury market to Audi.


BTW, check:

1) Maserati Picture Thread

2) Spotted Today

 

[Mr. M]

As much as I like Phaeton and respect VW for this technological marvel, I feel it was a wrong move.

VW never stood for luxury but a car for the masses. Over the years, they've established themselves as a somewhat "elevated mainstream manufacturer" meaning that they're slightly above other mainstreamers like Toyota, Nissan etc. in terms of target market (more expensive).

VW should continue what it does best. Design some of the best-looking and fun-to-drive mainstreamers in its segment. Leave the luxury market to Audi.


BTW, check:

1) Maserati Picture Thread

2) Spotted Today

I agree.

 

[RICHBOY]

Huh?

If we're honest, this is an excuse that was invented by Lexus fanboys that has made its way around the internet. There is no proof that this even true. Lexus are well-made cars, but so are those from the competition.

Many people criticized the Mercedes W210 E-Class (1996-2002) for lacking the durability and build quality of past Mercedes, and yet, one of father's friends has an 1996 or 1997 E230 W210 with over 500,000 km on the odometer and the car according to him has never failed him. This man uses his car to travel to Eastern Europe to do business there and as far as I know, they have some pretty bad roads there that should shake up a car pretty quickly. He also owns a 300SE (W126) S-Class with a similar mileage.

The point? Don't believe everything you hear. The LS and S-Class are both well-built cars that will last long enough. Also, Mercedes' recent quality offensive has shown tremendous improvements in build quality. If my father's friends E230 can last so long, then imagine an S-Class.

Respectfully Mr. Moderator you started the Fanboy labeling not me.

 

[cawimmer430]

Respectfully Mr. Moderator you started the Fanboy labeling not me.

If you'll reread my post, I said the "fanboys on Autolies". I NEVER called anyone in this community a fanboy.

 

[Karabiner98k]

Lexus engine really looks nice,4.6L 380hp 493nm
It managed to achieve more than 4.7L mercedes.