Vs Autobild: Mercedes-Benz S450 vs Lexus LS460 (PART II)

[Merc1]

Not sure about the load capacity thing, but the trunk space shrinks when you order the optional rear A/C unit. In the GS45h it is the hybrid battery pack that takes up the trunk space. Goes to show that Lexus engineers aren't as foward thinking as some would like you to believe. A Mercedes or BMW or Audi wouldn't ask you to make such compromises, especially for a rear A/C unit. Thats ridiculous for the simple fact that if you need the extra rear A/C unit you must be carrying more passengers, yet you have to decrease the amount of luggage you can carry. Retarded.

M

 

[Merc1]

I can't wait to see how MBUSA prices the S450 when it arrives for the 2008 model year. For the first time a S-Class might cost the same as the Lexus, the LS460L version to be exact, loaded or mildy equipped. It was so brilliant for them to launch the S550 here first in order to win all the comparos and built momentum.

M

 

[Centurion]

"When four adult males use an LS to go to the airport, they need to rent a taxi to transport their luggage. Embarassing."

They would probably need to rent a Toyota Tundra to transport the luggage.

 

[cawimmer430]

is the permissible weight thingy for real? then a lot of people in the us need to get on diet before buying this car.

LOL

It's not that bad I suppose. I think most LS's will either be driven by a single driver (the owner) or two to three people: chauffeur and passenger. I can't really see this car as a "family car" in the US, I don't even have that impression of the S-Class in America.

Here in Europe though, the S-Class is quite a successful family and executive car. Not sure about the LS: there are just hardly any around over here.

 

[cawimmer430]

...if you were looking for a car that's gonna last you 10 to 15 years even though we no that wouldn't be the case, their's no way in hell you'd pick the S-Class!

Huh?

If we're honest, this is an excuse that was invented by Lexus fanboys that has made its way around the internet. There is no proof that this even true. Lexus are well-made cars, but so are those from the competition.

Many people criticized the Mercedes W210 E-Class (1996-2002) for lacking the durability and build quality of past Mercedes, and yet, one of father's friends has an 1996 or 1997 E230 W210 with over 500,000 km on the odometer and the car according to him has never failed him. This man uses his car to travel to Eastern Europe to do business there and as far as I know, they have some pretty bad roads there that should shake up a car pretty quickly. He also owns a 300SE (W126) S-Class with a similar mileage.

The point? Don't believe everything you hear. The LS and S-Class are both well-built cars that will last long enough. Also, Mercedes' recent quality offensive has shown tremendous improvements in build quality. If my father's friends E230 can last so long, then imagine an S-Class.

 

[cawimmer430]

I can't wait to see how MBUSA prices the S450 when it arrives for the 2008 model year. For the first time a S-Class might cost the same as the Lexus, the LS460L version to be exact, loaded or mildy equipped. It was so brilliant for them to launch the S550 here first in order to win all the comparos and built momentum.

M

What I like about the S450 is that you have the option of choosing what you want and what you need. That's not possible in the Lexus LS460 because it comes fully equipped, often with stuff that nobody will need or never use.

I applaud Lexus for this, but coming from a conservative European background, I don't see the point in equipping a car with every conceivable option. First, it adds weight which affects fuel economy and I hate the idea of driving something that has this and that option that I'll never use.

My father insisted on ordering our E320 with a sunroof. I've never been a fan of sunroofs and needless to say, when driving the E320, I never use it. And it annoys me that the car has this option, despite me never making use of it. What's worse, my dad also hardly uses the sunroof. Other options we never use include the navigation system and the hands-free-cellphone system. We have an APS-50 navigation system in the car - yet my parents both are so old fashioned and like to rely on maps. How retarded is that!?

 

[cawimmer430]

They would probably need to rent a Toyota Tundra to transport the luggage.

 

[Merc1]

What I like about the S450 is that you have the option of choosing what you want and what you need. That's not possible in the Lexus LS460 because it comes fully equipped, often with stuff that nobody will need or never use.

I applaud Lexus for this, but coming from a conservative European background, I don't see the point in equipping a car with every conceivable option. First, it adds weight which affects fuel economy and I hate the idea of driving something that has this and that option that I'll never use.

My father insisted on ordering our E320 with a sunroof. I've never been a fan of sunroofs and needless to say, when driving the E320, I never use it. And it annoys me that the car has this option, despite me never making use of it. What's worse, my dad also hardly uses the sunroof. Other options we never use include the navigation system and the hands-free-cellphone system. We have an APS-50 navigation system in the car - yet my parents both are so old fashioned and like to rely on maps. How retarded is that!?

Lexus' options for the LS460/L here in the U.S. are just crazy:

Base Model $0.00
Base Model

Luxury Package with Additional Options $7,637.00
Luxury Package includes:
- Semi-aniline leather-trimmed interior
- Climate comfort front and rear seats with heat/cool knob
- Power rear seats with memory and power headrests
- Ecsaine headliner
- Rear-seat side airbags (SRS)

Additional Options:
- Mark Levinson® Audio System Package
- Advanced Parking Guidance System
- Lexus Link®
- Intuitive Parking Assist
- Preferred Accessory Package (includes Cargo net, Trunk mat and Wheel locks)



Luxury Package with Additional Options $7,736.00
Luxury Package includes:
- Semi-aniline leather-trimmed interior
- Climate comfort front and rear seats with heat/cool knob
- Power rear seats with memory and power headrests
- Ecsaine headliner
- Rear-seat side airbags (SRS)

Additional Options:
- Mark Levinson® Audio System Package
- Advanced Parking Guidance System
- Lexus Link®
- Intuitive Parking Assist
- Preferred Accessory Package (includes Cargo net, Trunk mat and Wheel locks)
- All-weather floor mats


Luxury Package with Additional Options $14,232.00
Luxury Package includes:
- Semi-aniline leather-trimmed interior
- Climate comfort front and rear seats with heat/cool knob
- Power rear seats with memory and power headrests
- Ecsaine headliner
- Rear-seat side airbags (SRS)

Additional Options:
- Lexus Pre-Collision System (PCS) and Dynamic Radar Cruise Control
- Mark Levinson® Audio System Package
- Adaptive Variable Air Suspension (AVS) and Variable Gear-Ratio Steering (VGRS)
- Rear-Seat Upgrade Package
- Advanced Parking Guidance System
- Lexus Link®
- Intuitive Parking Assist
- Preferred Accessory Package (includes Cargo net, Trunk mat and Wheel locks)


Luxury Package with Additional Options $14,331.00
Luxury Package includes:
- Semi-aniline leather-trimmed interior
- Climate comfort front and rear seats with heat/cool knob
- Power rear seats with memory and power headrests
- Ecsaine headliner
- Rear-seat side airbags (SRS)

Additional Options:
- Lexus Pre-Collision System (PCS) and Dynamic Radar Cruise Control
- Mark Levinson® Audio System Package
- Adaptive Variable Air Suspension (AVS) and Variable Gear-Ratio Steering (VGRS)
- Rear-Seat Upgrade Package
- Advanced Parking Guidance System
- Lexus Link®
- Intuitive Parking Assist
- Preferred Accessory Package (includes Cargo net, Trunk mat and Wheel locks)
- All-weather floor mats


Executive-Class Seating Package with Additional Options $22,275.00
Executive-Class Seating Package includes:
- Four-person seating with rear fixed console
- Semi-aniline leather-trimmed interior
- Four-zone automatic climate control with rear-seat infrared temperature sensor, interior air filter, smog sensor and automatic recirculation mode
- Rear-seat air purifier
- Right-rear power recliner with multi-function massager and legrest
- Rear seat wood-trimmed table
- Lexus DVD Rear-Seat Entertainment System (RSES) with power 9 inch screen
- Rear-seat audio controls
- Rear-seat cool box
- Power rear-door sunshades
- Ecsaine headliner
- Rear-seat side airbags (SRS)

Additional Options:
- Lexus Pre-Collision System (PCS) and Dynamic Radar Cruise Control
- Mark Levinson® Audio System Package
- Adaptive Variable Air Suspension (AVS) and Variable Gear-Ratio Steering (VGRS)
- Advanced Parking Guidance System
- Lexus Link®
- Intuitive Parking Assist


Executive-Class Seating Package with Additional Options $22,601.00
Executive-Class Seating Package includes:
- Four-person seating with rear fixed console
- Semi-aniline leather-trimmed interior
- Four-zone automatic climate control with rear-seat infrared temperature sensor, interior air filter, smog sensor and automatic recirculation mode
- Rear-seat air purifier
- Right-rear power recliner with multi-function massager and legrest
- Rear seat wood-trimmed table
- Lexus DVD Rear-Seat Entertainment System (RSES) with power 9 inch screen
- Rear-seat audio controls
- Rear-seat cool box
- Power rear-door sunshades
- Ecsaine headliner
- Rear-seat side airbags (SRS)

Additional Options:
- Lexus Pre-Collision System (PCS) and Dynamic Radar Cruise Control
- Mark Levinson® Audio System Package
- Adaptive Variable Air Suspension (AVS) and Variable Gear-Ratio Steering (VGRS)
- Advanced Parking Guidance System
- Lexus Link®
- Intuitive Parking Assist
- Preferred Accessory Package (includes Cargo net, Trunk mat and Wheel locks)
- All-weather floor mats


Each package adds 1 or 2 more items more than the last one. It is kinda ridiculous. On Edmunds some of the buyers are really confused as to what they've even ordered or are getting because of this.

M

 

[cawimmer430]

That's one long list of options and packages! Holy crap!

 

[RICHBOY]

Huh?

If we're honest, this is an excuse that was invented by Lexus fanboys that has made its way around the internet. There is no proof that this even true. Lexus are well-made cars, but so are those from the competition.

Many people criticized the Mercedes W210 E-Class (1996-2002) for lacking the durability and build quality of past Mercedes, and yet, one of father's friends has an 1996 or 1997 E230 W210 with over 500,000 km on the odometer and the car according to him has never failed him. This man uses his car to travel to Eastern Europe to do business there and as far as I know, they have some pretty bad roads there that should shake up a car pretty quickly. He also owns a 300SE (W126) S-Class with a similar mileage.

The point? Don't believe everything you hear. The LS and S-Class are both well-built cars that will last long enough. Also, Mercedes' recent quality offensive has shown tremendous improvements in build quality. If my father's friends E230 can last so long, then imagine an S-Class.

Good copout with the fanboy remark! My point being I see tons of old Lexus vehicles all over the place, as well as Toyota's and Nissans! What you expect me to believe that I just seem to miss the huge amounts of old German vehicles? I doubt that! Further more, you can't believe what you hear from Mercedes fanboys on built quality until it has a life cycle even close to Lexus, until then it's only talk!

 

[Mr. M]

Still Chris, I haven't heard of load capacity being a problem for any car until this review came along... It's a little suspect, but I guess it's a problem indeed.

I'm sure plenty of people exceed the load capacities of their cars without even knowing, and I wonder what will happen/have happened to them. Never heard of any mishaps involving such a case.

 

[cawimmer430]

Further more, you can't believe what you hear from Mercedes fanboys on built quality until it has a life cycle even close to Lexus, until then it's only talk!

I never listen to Mercedes fanboys. I have a mind of my own.

 

[cawimmer430]

Still Chris, I haven't heard of load capacity being a problem for any car until this review came along... It's a little suspect, but I guess it's a problem indeed.

I'm sure plenty of people exceed the load capacities of their cars without even knowing, and I wonder what will happen/have happened to them. Never heard of any mishaps involving such a case.

Check the users manual of your family's Maserati Quattroporte. There is bound to be a section that states what the max. permissible weight and load capacity is.

Exceeding the load capacity will affect the handling and braking qualities of the car the most and if accidents occur, the insurance will often not pay because you exceeded the max. permissible weight of the car. At least that's what it's like in Germany.

During my England roadtrip with my parents in the E320, that car was so overloaded with luggage and purchases. I knew we had exceeded the max. permissible weight and it showed. The car handled extremely poor, acceleration was slower than usual and your braking distance increased. This is why max. permissible weight is so important. It keeps things within the safety limit.

Here's a pic of our overloaded E320 in some town in Southern England.

 

[rev]

Call me crazy, but I could never imagine my self spending 82.000 Euros for a Toyota! I know the car is called Lexus but it's still a Toyota, the car maker of cheap everyday cars! Mercedes on the other hand, is a car maker with prestige, known for building high quality luxurious cars, with a history of more than 100 years! Even if Lexus made better cars in future than Mercedes, they would never become a status symbol like Merecedes

 

[cawimmer430]

Call me crazy, but I could never imagine my self spending 82.000 Euros for a Toyota! I know the car is called Lexus but it's still a Toyota, the car maker of cheap everyday cars! Mercedes on the other hand, is a car maker with prestige, known for building high quality luxurious cars, with a history of more than 100 years! Even if Lexus made better cars in future than Mercedes, they would never become a status symbol like Merecedes

Thanks.

One thing about Lexus though is that they generally appeal to people who just want a well-equipped premium car and don't care as much about tradition and history or the badge as others. I generally classify these people as non-enthusiasts, except for our member Bruce, who is the exception.

I'm not a Lexus fan either, but I do respect them and the competition they're offering against the big German three is good enough to get them to better their products. In the end, we as consumers win.

And I am a huge Mercedes fan. I've always been attracted to this brand because of their spectacular history. It's a very emotional brand and I feel that in those 100+ years that Mercedes has been around, their expertise, knowledge and innovations make their way into all their cars. With Lexus, you don't really get that. Hence my opinion that most Lexus customers care more about the value side of things.

 

[rev]

In the end, we as consumers win.

Couldn't agree with you more!

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

Good copout with the fanboy remark! My point being I see tons of old Lexus vehicles all over the place, as well as Toyota's and Nissans! What you expect me to believe that I just seem to miss the huge amounts of old German vehicles? I doubt that! Further more, you can't believe what you hear from Mercedes fanboys on built quality until it has a life cycle even close to Lexus, until then it's only talk!

Are you kidding Richboy? lol. Minus the 90's disaster decade, Mercedes build quality and durability was outstanding. The newer vehicles are a return to form for the marque and there is no reason why they shouldn't last as long, if not longer, than a lexus.

My uncle has a 05 current shape lexus GS with 25000km on the clock, and my father a 03 E-class with 55000km on the clock. The lexus has had as many electronic glitches as the Benz, and guess which one has developed more annoying squeeks and rattles in the interior despite being considerably newer. The newer Lexus vehicles in my family have been far from flawless.

 

[Mr. M]

Call me crazy, but I could never imagine my self spending 82.000 Euros for a Toyota! I know the car is called Lexus but it's still a Toyota, the car maker of cheap everyday cars! Mercedes on the other hand, is a car maker with prestige, known for building high quality luxurious cars, with a history of more than 100 years! Even if Lexus made better cars in future than Mercedes, they would never become a status symbol like Merecedes

For the very same reason, I predict that you see no sense in a VW Phaeton as well. I get where you're going, but I feel that if a brand (like Toyota, or VW) is supported by substance (LS460, Phaeton), I'm willing to look beyond the history/heritage/prestige of a brand to appreciate the car for what it is. After all, it's the car that you're buying... The brand's just for status. And that's where I agree with you, Lexus or VW can never be status symbols.

BTW Wimmer, where's part I?

 

[RICHBOY]

Are you kidding Richboy? lol. Minus the 90's disaster decade, Mercedes build quality and durability was outstanding. The newer vehicles are a return to form for the marque and there is no reason why they shouldn't last as long, if not longer, than a lexus.

My uncle has a 05 current shape lexus GS with 25000km on the clock, and my father a 03 E-class with 55000km on the clock. The lexus has had as many electronic glitches as the Benz, and guess which one has developed more annoying squeeks and rattles in the interior despite being considerably newer. The newer Lexus vehicles in my family have been far from flawless.

Listen "Mr. Mercedes" with the exception of one model the E-Class, Mercedes, Audi, BMW, and even my favorite brand Porsche can't compete with the reliability of the Japanese! Say what ya want, I don't see 20 year old Mercedes every day, heck not even in a weeks time! For you or anyone else to claim the Germans, Italians, or Americans are on the level with the Japanese build quality is insulting. But most of all goes to show that you and anyone else taking such a position is the ultimate FANBOY!! I wish this wasn't the case but as it stands now that's the way it is!! I brought my fiances brother a 1990 Honda Accord with 377,000 miles on it in 2000, this car has outlast every German, and American car I've had since then. No nickle in diming, just a new head lamp, tires, brake pads, that's about it. I have high expectations for the current Audi's, Benzes, and Bimmers to match the Japanese but come on, know body buy's 10 year old German saloons with expectations any longer than a year or two! Take your blindfolds off.

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

Listen "Mr. Mercedes" with the exception of one model the E-Class, Mercedes, Audi, BMW, and even my favorite brand Porsche can't compete with the reliability of the Japanese! Say what ya want, I don't see 20 year old Mercedes every day, heck not even in a weeks time! For you or anyone else to claim the Germans, Italians, or Americans are on the level with the Japanese build quality is insulting. But most of all goes to show that you and anyone else taking such a position is the ultimate FANBOY!! I wish this wasn't the case but as it stands now that's the way it is!! I brought my fiances brother a 1990 Honda Accord with 377,000 miles on it in 2000, this car has outlast every German, and American car I've had since then. No nickle in diming, just a new head lamp, tires, brake pads, that's about it. I have high expectations for the current Audi's, Benzes, and Bimmers to match the Japanese but come on, know body buy's 10 year old German saloons with expectations any longer than a year or two! Take your blindfolds off.

If you say so...but given the relatively small numbers Mercedes were sold in in Australia, the number of old ones still on the road represent far in excess the percentage of the market they had when new.

No one buying 10 year old German saloons? So how does that explain the industry leading resale values of a Benz compared to the outrageously poor ones of Lexus? Maybe the Australian market is an 'annomaly' but I doubt it.

Please don't throw the word FANBOY around with such ease. You don't know me well enough to be in a position to judge whether I am one or not.