Vs Autobild: Audi R8 vs Porsche 997 4S

[martinbo]

I doubt it will happen. Porsche tried to kill the 911 and rear engined layout, but they're stuck with it.

Well then thank heaven's for small mercies! The world is a better place...

Well I'd go for a Cayman if we're talking Porsche sport cars.

Nah, too slow and not enough torque...

We'll I'd kind of agree. VW AG definatelly has an identity crisis as opposed to say Porsche but also BMW.

Oooo, you don't wanna go down that road - that is such a contentious statement and it'll be the start of a flame war of galactic proportions. Let sleeping dogs lie bro. Let's keep this about R8 vs 911.

BTW, Carbon fibre is always good.

Not when it's just slapped on the side in the middle of nowhere like a piece of Biltong hanging in a Free State farmer's barn. (You'll have to look that up to get what I mean har har har... ) Seriously, it just looks tacky.

 

[martinbo]

That's Rubbish Martin. You're no Grandpa!

Thanks Bruce! Yeah - I do know that though, just having a bit o' sport with my good pal Mirage77.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

IE, I'm sorry but in a modern day context that generalisation doesn't hold sway.

I disagree, just because the 911 has been incrementally engineered over the years to be more "driver-friendly" doesn't make it any less exciting to drive. What you have to appreciate is that these modern cars are so much faster than their "death-trap" ancestors. Don't think you can have a 911 white-knuckle, heart in the mouth moment in a modern 997? Go watch any reputable motoring program... These new cars carry so much speed through a corner that, believe me, when taking a fast sweep flat-out at 180 km/h if you cock it up no amount of PASM, PSM, SPAM, Beef-jerky and Jack Daniels is going to save the day.

Faster yes, and a lot safer too.

Sorry Martimbo, but a 180 Km/h cornering can be a lot easier and safer that cornering in a old rear engined car at 80 Km/h.

Aids direct and indirect taken from F1 and the WRC will do that.
And you really don't know their limit
[(hint: Senna shaving the tyres at Monaco in qualifications with millimetrical precision; unseens before or after the ban of the active ride cars);
(or the fan cars witch went full steam ahead on wet track and oil as if Jesus was walking on water)].

Besides which, your assertion of the engine being in the wrong place is completely contradictory with you stance on modern 911's becoming soft.

It's flaws have been much neutralised/corected/ counter-acted by the above mentioned aids.

The same can be said about any sporting car out there. These days real motoring elitists are few and far between. Welcome to the commodotised world of the 21st Century.

BINGO.

Zonda F??? The Zonda F had no impact whatsoever on CGT sales and appeared so late that the CGT was on the verge of being discontinued. The Zonda F is in such limited series production for cash-strapped Pagani that there simply aren't enough of them around to justify meaningful comparison.
Besides, this discussion is off-topic - I merely suggested the CGT as an example of how precisely Porsche understand the virtues of the mid-engined layout. Oh, and the CGT still is the quickest car of its kind around the Ring or Bedford or wherever so yes, a smearing was the order of the day - come what may.

Come on Martin stop being so unrationally defensive of the CGT.
It's a great car, but it didn't smack (all) the competition not did it have the impact of the McLaren F1.

Driving any car to your or its limits demands 110% concentration. No matter how safe and easy to drive they might seem. This I say in my professional opinion - because I get paid to teach it.

The 997 Turbo is in nowhere near as demanding as the 930/934/935 Turbo at high speed cornering, or the C4S to the 2.7 RS.
At this coming from folks who owned/raced these cars.

Porsche's heritage and achievements in competition are unquestionable. Does anyone remember a certain race called Le Mans? In the modern day prospect of car ownership, Porsche's countless successes in all manner of endurance racing (remember that a 959 won the Paris Dakar for example) is a testament to their cars' legendary reliability - another mitigating factor in undestanding the supremacy of the most profitable car maker on the planet.

So yes, more relative than this, you can't get.

I know about LeMans and Dakar but my mates don't. Whenever I watch the LMS or ALMS they say "what is this non-sense".

Typical chat:
LeMans ... what's that ?!
... never heard about it ...
... what about the F1 championships, Ferrari, McLaren MB, BMW, Renault ... Porsche is were in this ?!

 

[Imhotep Evil]

Well then thank heaven's for small mercies! The world is a better place...

Well it was a case of lack of resources and/or balls.

Nah, too slow and not enough torque...

But, it's mid engined and a bit lighter, and smaller.

Not when it's just slapped on the side in the middle of nowhere like a piece of Biltong hanging in a Free State farmer's barn. (You'll have to look that up to get what I mean har har har... ) Seriously, it just looks tacky.

But, it's lighter and more rigid tacky-ness as opposed to heavier and less rigid tacky-ness, witch would still have been there, IMO.

 

[martinbo]

But, it's lighter and more rigid tacky-ness as opposed to heavier and less rigid tacky-ness, witch would still have been there, IMO.

Ha ha - too funny.

Sorry Martimbo, but a 180 Km/h cornering can be a lot easier and safer that cornering in a old rear engined car at 80 Km/h.

Easier - perhaps, given the way modern cars reach such high levels of performance with such ease these days. Safer? Impossible. If you think you're safe cornering at 180 km/h per hour in any car then you're delusional. See one times E92 (I estimate the speed was around 180 km/h-200km/h) strewn amongst the trees in another thread on this forum. No amount of electronic wizadry can overcome the laws of physics. It's all down to Sir Isaac Newton vs. Thomas Edison. And when the decks are loaded, Sir Isaac always wins.

It's flaws have been much neutralised/corected/ counter-acted by the above mentioned aids.

No, that's not the entire story... 911's have been incrementally improved with every generation. The 993 Turbo was a much more forgiving drive than the 964 or 930 Turbos before it. PASM is an enhancement to current 997's already superlative dynamic disposition and has only appeared on the current car. The 996 was every bit the user-friendly car the 997 is now - it simply has less electronic wizadry to make do with. In fact, I've read several reports that suggest that the 997 Turbo is more of a handful than the highly praised 996 Turbo when overstepping the bounds of its prodigious limits.

Come on Martin stop being so unrationally defensive of the CGT.
It's a great car, but it didn't smack (all) the competition not did it have the impact of the McLaren F1.

Of course not. The McLaren is a monumental landmark that, in its day, set such a high standard of engineering attention to detail that has yet to be surpassed. But this has nothing to do with the F1. And no, I'm not being irrationally defensive of the CGT - I just recognise a great car when I see one.

 

[Centurion]

It's a great car, but it didn't smack (all) the competition not did it have the impact of the McLaren F1.

You right it didn't but no other super car out there has, not even the Zonda. With the CGT Porsche proved they can play the mid engine game too. The CGT came in one version and it rocked the world. Don't bring in the Zonda because Pagani and koennigseg update and modifies their car almost every 2nd or third year. Porsche manufacture the the most precise mid engine cars in the world, the CGT, Boxster and Cayman.

 

[Zafiro]

Future battle: Audi R8 V10 vs 997 Turbo

 

[Bruce]

You right it didn't but no other super car out there has, not even the Zonda. With the CGT Porsche proved they can play the mid engine game too. The CGT came in one version and it rocked the world. Don't bring in the Zonda because Pagani and koennigseg update and modifies their car almost every 2nd or third year. Porsche manufacture the the most precise mid engine cars in the world, the CGT, Boxster and Cayman.

Sorry Luw, but let's not confuse Pagani as a model "update whore". I'm not saying you are, but in any event Pagani is actually quite subtle when it comes to model updates. Unlike Koenigsegg who releases a new model every 6 months and is constantly screwing customers with poor marketing strategy

Sorry for the OT

 

[Imhotep Evil]

Easier - perhaps, given the way modern cars reach such high levels of performance with such ease these days. Safer? Impossible. If you think you're safe cornering at 180 km/h per hour in any car then you're delusional. See one times E92 (I estimate the speed was around 180 km/h-200km/h) strewn amongst the trees in another thread on this forum. No amount of electronic wizadry can overcome the laws of physics. It's all down to Sir Isaac Newton vs. Thomas Edison. And when the decks are loaded, Sir Isaac always wins.

Not impossible.
An old 356 on a windy day, small, light, skinny tyres, on its VW suspensions would be more dangerous at cornering at 80 Km/h than a 997 Turbo cornering at 180 Km/h.

As for the aids they don't break or bend the laws of physics really, but use some laws of physics to counter-act/neutralise other laws of physics.

BTW was that an AWD E92, with active/semi-active supensions and spoiler ?!

Besides, Sir Newton lost to Herr Einstein.
You know it's relative.

No, that's not the entire story... 911's have been incrementally improved with every generation. The 993 Turbo was a much more forgiving drive than the 964 or 930 Turbos before it. PASM is an enhancement to current 997's already superlative dynamic disposition and has only appeared on the current car. The 996 was every bit the user-friendly car the 997 is now - it simply has less electronic wizadry to make do with. In fact, I've read several reports that suggest that the 997 Turbo is more of a handful than the highly praised 996 Turbo when overstepping the bounds of its prodigious limits.

Adding all those thing was part of the improvement.
And it goes to the 901 S witch had a longer wheelbase, and the 2.7 RS witch had wider rear tyres and the wing, and they also moved the fuel tank, and pushed the engine a bit and so on and so on ...

Of course not. The McLaren is a monumental landmark that, in its day, set such a high standard of engineering attention to detail that has yet to be surpassed. But this has nothing to do with the F1. And no, I'm not being irrationally defensive of the CGT - I just recognise a great car when I see one.

I recognise it as a great car too, for me it just wasn't as great as the F1 at its time.

 

[Centurion]

Sorry Luw, but let's not confuse Pagani as a model "update whore". I'm not saying you are, but in any event Pagani is actually quite subtle when it comes to model updates. Unlike Koenigsegg who releases a new model every 6 months and is constantly screwing customers with poor marketing strategy

Sorry for the OT

Don't worry Bruce I don't think of Pagani as an updae whore, but they will be if the launch another Zonda "update" in the coming years. Koenigsegg on the other hand needs to get their act together and develop a damn new car.

 

[Bruce]

Don't worry Bruce I don't think of Pagani as an updae whore, but they will be if the launch another Zonda "update" in the coming years.

Actually yeah, I'd have to agree in that case. However, as far as I'm aware the Zonda F and the Zonda R (ok, slight whoring here ) will be the last versions of the Zonda that we'll see.

2008 will be a new vehicle from Pagani.

Koenigsegg on the other hand needs to get their act together.

Agreed

 

[Imhotep Evil]

What is this update whoring non-sense?!

Once upon of time in America cars were updated yearly. And let's not forget F1 cars are updated on a weekly/monthly basic.

 

[Bruce]

What is this update whoring non-sense?!

Once upon of time in America cars were updated yearly. And let's not forget F1 cars are updated on a weekly/monthly basic.

That may be the case with those particular vehicles, but in the past exotics/supercars didn't have thirty other variants. The market has expanded to level at which companies can now offer multiple versions of $200,000 vehicles.

For Example:

Pagani Zonda: F/S/C12/R
Koenigsegg CC: CC8S/CCR/CCX/CCXR

Mind you, the difference between Pagani and Koenigsegg is that the Zonda variants have been divided by two year gaps.

Lamborghini has go absoulutely insanse with Gallardo variants. Firstly we had the coupe and then we had the 520bhp Gallardo SE, which followed a near technically indentical Gallardo four months after the S4 with the '06 and now, we've got a Superleggera.

The rate at which models are being turned and replaced is unbelievable.

 

[DeDe]

Any scans of the AMuS-comparison of the R8 vs. 911?

 

[Imhotep Evil]

That may be the case with those particular vehicles, but in the past exotics/supercars didn't have thirty other variants. The market has expanded to level at which companies can now offer multiple versions of $200,000 vehicles.

For Example:

Pagani Zonda: F/S/C12/R
Koenigsegg CC: CC8S/CCR/CCX/CCXR

Mind you, the difference between Pagani and Koenigsegg is that the Zonda variants have been divided by two year gaps.

Lamborghini has go absoulutely insanse with Gallardo variants. Firstly we had the coupe and then we had the 520bhp Gallardo SE, which followed a near technically indentical Gallardo four months after the S4 with the '06 and now, we've got a Superleggera.

The rate at which models are being turned and replaced is unbelievable.

So what's the problem ?!
How many variants does Porsche have with the 911 ?!

 

[Bruce]

So what's the problem ?!

Well it can be interpreted many different ways. It might not bother you, but it bothers me when supercar companies constantly release new model updates every year and slowly diminish the meaning of the supercar (in my eyes, anyways).

I think the point which Luwalira was trying to make originally is that the Carrera GT was released with one variant, where as the other supercar makers have released multiple variants.

Anyhow, you've got my apologies for going off topic.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

For me their special ness comes from performance, and as an F1 fan constant improvement upgrading is always good IMO.

 

[Deutsch]

Whoa! Way too many quotes to quote.

1st, the Lambo shows the R8 nothing in design. Da Silva designed both cars, and both cars were developed around-if not the same time. Of course they had to strategically plan the launch of both cars and it only made sense that the Lambo be launched first, as it was an all new addition to an existing solo car lineup for a limited production, super car brand. The R8 could afford to wait an intro, as it would be a further addition to an already full model portfolio.

As for the 911; "if it ain't broke don't fix it". They only reason there are so many variants and very little change in the 911 theme is because the customer demands it. If there's any problem to be had I strongly suggest you go out and attempt to "sell" other sports cars to 911 buyers. Good luck, you're going to need it.

 

[Mr. M]

Whoa! Way too many quotes to quote.

1st, the Lambo shows the R8 nothing in design. Da Silva designed both cars, and both cars were developed around-if not the same time. Of course they had to strategically plan the launch of both cars and it only made sense that the Lambo be launched first, as it was an all new addition to an existing solo car lineup for a limited production, super car brand. The R8 could afford to wait an intro, as it would be a further addition to an already full model portfolio.

As for the 911; "if it ain't broke don't fix it". They only reason there are so many variants and very little change in the 911 theme is because the customer demands it. If there's any problem to be had I strongly suggest you go out and attempt to "sell" other sports cars to 911 buyers. Good luck, you're going to need it.

Wasn't the Gallardo designed by the Belgian, Luc Donckerwolke? Unless you're referring to another Lambo.

 

[SDNR]

I like both very much ...but they Porsche is what I would choose. It's hotter than Workout Barbie