Vs Autobild: Audi R8 vs Porsche 997 4S

[Zafiro]

BTW the 9974S will have its power increased with 12hp or 25hp with the face lift, so it will be even better next year.



The 997GT3 is not a track car, it just does well on a track like any other 911 or Porsche. Further more the R8 has been labeled a super car and is Audi's attempt of tackling the big boys GT3, Gallardo and F430.

its more of a trackcar than what R8 is. Sorry Luw even today I cant agree with you R8 is not Gallardo competitor, Audi is shooting them in the foot if thats the case.

 

[Centurion]

its more of a trackcar than what R8 is. Sorry Luw even today I cant agree with you R8 is not Gallardo competitor, Audi is shooting them in the foot if thats the case.

Okay the R8 might not be a direct Gallardo competitor because of the family situation Audi and Lamborghini has got going on. Just because the GT3 handles better doesn't make it more of a track car, it makes it a better sports car. If it was like you are saying one would even call the Boxster a track car just because it performs better than a TT around a track. See what problems that type of reasoning causes?
Porsche are keen on making their car usable in real life which is why Porsche active suspension management is standard on the GT3 allowing you to switch between two different setting.

Most importantly, if the R8 is going to be labeled as a super car then hell yeah it should be put up for a proper test.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

Okay the R8 might not be a direct Gallardo competitor because of the family situation Audi and Lamborghini has got going on. Just because the GT3 handles better doesn't make it more of a track car, it makes it a better sports car. If it was like you are saying one would even call the Boxster a track car just because it performs better than a TT around a track. See what problems that type of reasoning causes?
Porsche are keen on making their car usable in real life which is why Porsche active suspension management is standard on the GT3 allowing you to switch between two different setting.

Most importantly, if the R8 is going to be labeled as a super car then hell yeah it should be put up for a proper test.

On the PASM, from what I've got on the Cayenne Turbo S:

Porsche Norge: Nye Cayenne Turbo S

Suspension with fully-controlled self-levelling and active damper system as standard

The robust but nevertheless responsive suspension of the Cayenne Turbo S boasts all control systems appropriate for a high-performance sports utility vehicle: the springs are adjustable air springs with integrated self-levelling serving, inter alia, to lower the entire body of the vehicle in two steps at high speeds. Superior damping and shock absorption is ensured by PASM Porsche Active Suspension Management consistently controlling damper forces and reducing both body roll and pitch.


Now such things were used on the active suspension/active ride F1 cars between 1987 and 1993, but were banned (I think some were also used on the WRC cars).

So the PASM isn't there just for comfort, but also, more so, for track performance. And as I mention it blows the current F1 suspension system out of the water.

 

[Centurion]

^^
Off course it's not just there for comfort. It tries to keep the car during heavy breaking and heavy acceleration from a standstill. Not to mention in corners.


Current F1 suspension system uses water? Why, because it is lighter than oil?

 

[Imhotep Evil]

^^
Off course it's not just there for comfort. It tries to keep the car during heavy breaking and heavy acceleration from a standstill. Not to mention in corners.

My points were:
- it's not a comfort only architecture
- it goes way beyond your average suspension be it comfort or sport/racy one
- the GT3 tough taimed in its 997 incarnation is still a lot more of a track/sport/race animal vs. the R8.

 

[martinbo]

I'm not a vociferous critic of the 911.

Yeah right, and I'm Roger Federer... C'mon, don't be like that, I can recall lots of posts where you've clearly had it in for the 911. Don't you remember calling the Carrera 4S a poseurs car for girlies (or something like that?)

[ You should meet/chat with some members of the air colled rear engine brotherhood to find out what a vociferous critic of the modern 911 is.
[You will be on your knees begging for mercy. ]]

Those people need to move on with the times. Things change. Just because a 911 is now water-cooled doesn't make it anything less than a 911 in the modern idiom.

I think in this test it is the real winner. The R8 just happens to have an engine placed mid-rear with more power witch is always a better thing.

Yes, I agree with this.

Oh and the CGT didn't smeared the competition into the tarmac.

It so did.

Agreed that the rear-engined layout of the 911 is part of its heritage and every bit part of its dynamic appeal, but the a rear engine is not what Dr. Porsche planned/wanted.

He created the mid engined car and believed, that on a sport car, the engine should be placed mid-rear, close to the rear axle, but not after it .

But the Bettle plays a major part as to its legacy, descendece and partially to its succes.

Look there's no denying the validity or logic of what you're saying. And I don't question your knowledge on this matter either. Yes, it's very important that we recognise that the 911's mechanical layout was borne out of a compromise rather than necessity.

But here's the thing: There are a multitude of virtues that a 911 has that completely overwhelm the car's only drawback: its high polar moment of inertia. Being far too many to list, I'll mention but a few.

The 911 has such massive appeal first and foremost because it's unique. There isn't another car out there like it. It has character and charisma in abundance as a result of this uniqueness.

The 911 is enduring; in a world where great cars wax and wane, the 911 persists and continues to improve despite Sir Isaac Newton's Principia. This lends the car an air of class and desirability - sure, it's just a car but there's no denying that a 911 makes for one of motoring's most covetable - yet usable - possessions.

The 911 is beautiful. It's silhouette is as unmistakable as some of the great mechanical designs of our time: the elliptical wings of the Spitfire or the classic elegance of a Bell JetRanger. The relatively upright windscreen arching backward into a gently tapering tear-drop shape is one of the most emphatic statements of elegance I can think of. The 911 is the only car that carries off a short wheelbase combined with long front and rear overhangs with such graceful ease and its wide, rounded rear haunches make the car a delight to behold from behind.

The 911 is compact; in a world of ever-burgeoning car dimensions and weights the 911 continues to differentiate itself as being more compact, yet no less practical than its competitors. The car's concentrated, nuggety proportion is a clear signal of intent and purpose and the promise of a totally unique and captivating motoring experience.

And so with this rant now over I'll leave you with one parting thought:

Can the same be said for the R8 with all of its exotic design, its superior layout, its greater by far "exclusivity" and its halo car status? In my considered opinion, no.

 

[PanterroR]

Great discussion IE and Martin...

 

[Centurion]

Those people need to move on with the times. Things change. Just because a 911 is now water-cooled doesn't make it anything less than a 911 in the modern idiom.

Thank you.

 

[Zafiro]

The R8 beated the 997 4S with 2 seconds. Enuff said!

 

[Merc1]

This is a tough one since I'm nuts about the 911. However this R8 is stunning. Solution: get both!

M

 

[DaSilva]

This is a tough one since I'm nuts about the 911. However this R8 is stunning. Solution: get both!

M

Both ? sorry, then I'll rather buy 1 Lambo.
Come on..

 

[Merc1]

Both ? sorry, then I'll rather buy 1 Lambo.
Come on..

Make it a Gallardo Spyder and I'm with you!

M

 

[DaSilva]

Make it a Gallardo Spyder and I'm with you!

M

Deal!

 

[Mr. M]

Can the same be said for the R8 with all of its exotic design, its superior layout, its greater by far "exclusivity" and its halo car status? In my considered opinion, no.

Not too sound offensive... But I do think, Porsche needs a new model, the 911 has been around for too long. I can see where you're coming from with your points in your post, but I do not feel nostalgic about the 911 like you do. Maybe it's a generation gap thing, or most probably it's because I've never driven a 911.

The R8 is better than the 997C4S for me in every way.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

Those people need to move on with the times. Things change. Just because a 911 is now water-cooled doesn't make it anything less than a 911 in the modern idiom.

It's not the water cooled engine that is as much the problem as it is the electronical and/or mecanical direct and indirect aids taken from Formula 1 and the WRC witch make the 911 easy to drive, accessible to every one as opposed to the widow makers/death on 4 wheels meant for only and handfull few elite bastards.

Esentially it became a badge poseur car (meant rather for executives/managers, lawyers, fashion people and their sons) as opposed to a special elitist car (meant for people who raced at LeMans, Mille Miglia, Spa, Nurburgring, Carrera Panamericana, Targa Florio, Sebring, Daytona, Laguna Seca).

It so did.

Nope it didn't. Think Zonda F.
But really the CGT didn't have the impact that the McLarean F1 (LM) had.

Look there's no denying the validity or logic of what you're saying. And I don't question your knowledge on this matter either. Yes, it's very important that we recognise that the 911's mechanical layout was borne out of a compromise rather than necessity.

But here's the thing: There are a multitude of virtues that a 911 has that completely overwhelm the car's only drawback: its high polar moment of inertia. Being far too many to list, I'll mention but a few.

The 911 has such massive appeal first and foremost because it's unique. There isn't another car out there like it. It has character and charisma in abundance as a result of this uniqueness.

The 911 is enduring; in a world where great cars wax and wane, the 911 persists and continues to improve despite Sir Isaac Newton's Principia. This lends the car an air of class and desirability - sure, it's just a car but there's no denying that a 911 makes for one of motoring's most covetable - yet usable - possessions.

The special thing about rear engined Porsches were that their were elite driver's cars demanding 110% concentration and above average driving skills and experience.
It's flaws demanded this, and thats why a handfull of weird, quirky, "sado-masochists" elite bastards loved them.
Covetable yet unusable my most, special, perfect because of being so flawed.

The 911 is beautiful. It's silhouette is as unmistakable as some of the great mechanical designs of our time: the elliptical wings of the Spitfire or the classic elegance of a Bell JetRanger. The relatively upright windscreen arching backward into a gently tapering tear-drop shape is one of the most emphatic statements of elegance I can think of. The 911 is the only car that carries off a short wheelbase combined with long front and rear overhangs with such graceful ease and its wide, rounded rear haunches make the car a delight to behold from behind.

The 911 is compact; in a world of ever-burgeoning car dimensions and weights the 911 continues to differentiate itself as being more compact, yet no less practical than its competitors. The car's concentrated, nuggety proportion is a clear signal of intent and purpose and the promise of a totally unique and captivating motoring experience.

And so with this rant now over I'll leave you with one parting thought:

Can the same be said for the R8 with all of its exotic design, its superior layout, its greater by far "exclusivity" and its halo car status? In my considered opinion, no.

Apart from the 993 (Turbo) and the 2.8 RSR I don't find any 911 as beautiful.
Tastes are subjective and I personally find the 300 SL, 540K SR, 328 MM roadster and 507 as the most beautiful german cars ever. The 911 isn't even on the chart IMO.

My mates are even worse, the use words like the "ugly frog" ... and if you try to reason with them they'll come up with "how many F1 WCs has Porsche won ?!" as opposed to Ferrari, McLaren ... or "it's got the engine in the wrong place".

So it's all relative.

 

[martinbo]

Not too sound offensive... But I do think, Porsche needs a new model, the 911 has been around for too long. I can see where you're coming from with your points in your post, but I do not feel nostalgic about the 911 like you do. Maybe it's a generation gap thing, or most probably it's because I've never driven a 911.

The R8 is better than the 997C4S for me in every way.

No offense taken Mirage. This is after all the forum for such comparative discussion and this is internal combustion all the same?

Yes, maybe Porsche does need a new model - I'd be delighted to see a new mid-engined sports car / supercar to assume the mantle of the 911. But can it be called a 911 - personally I think that would be unfair.

Contrary to what you may interpret, my reverance for the 911 isn't based on nostalgia - despite my having a healthy appreciation of the marque and its heritage. I don't walk around a 997 GT3 RS and go "ah, magnificence: the modern day iteration of the classic 1972 Carrera RS..."
No, I see a car that represents the pinnacle of performance and desirability in the modern idiom. A car so good that its engine generates a ludicrous amount of power and torque for a 3.6 litre flat-six without direct injection or individual throttle bodies per cylinder. A car so meticulously engineered that it weighs just 5 kg more than its predecessor.

I am no less appreciative of a 997 C4S when in its presence - albeit for slightly different reason of which I've explained.

Y'see Porsche know what 911 customers want and what they're prepared to accept in future generations. Believe me, should good fortune favour me - the first sports car I'd go out and buy is a 911; an R8 wouldn't get a second thought. This has nothing to do with sentimentalism, rather it's my own deep appreciation for all the things that make a 911 special on the inside and out.

I've been around too as you suggest in your generation gap comment and that doesn't stop me from appreciating cars in their most modern incarnations. In the same vein I recall all of VW's previous supercar concepts from W12s to Bentley Hunaudieres and Audi Rosemeyers. Each of them as unconvincing as the other as to their image and identity. The R8 suffers from the exact same affliction.

I adore the Ferrari F430 and the Lamborghini Gallardo perhaps more so. That Lambo is so convincing as a modern day wedge-shaped supercar and it's as dramatic and lovely as anything ought to be out of Italy. The Gallardo's designers had it easy - there was always a rich, tangible frame of reference from whence to derive the Gallardo's stupendous good looks. It's heritage is undeniable: it's an Italian car, designed and built in Italy. It is funded by a German company and it does have some rather uncharacteristic looking buttons in the cabin, granted.

The R8 suffers from that same, nagging VWAG supercar identity crisis. Veyron included! It might be darned competent - there's no denying that - but, actually, I feel that the R8 is a daft looking supercar, festooned with OTT looking slashes, ribs and vents, Christmas decoration lights and a styling feature that's more akin to a carbon fibre Texan steak than an ooo-so-fancy sounding "sideblade".

We don't even have to flip a coin for it: you take the R8 (there's absolutely nothing wrong that choice) and I'll opt for the C4S being the grandpa that I am...

 

[Imhotep Evil]

No offense taken Mirage. This is after all the forum for such comparative discussion and this is internal combustion all the same?

Yes, maybe Porsche does need a new model - I'd be delighted to see a new mid-engined sports car / supercar to assume the mantle of the 911. But can it be called a 911 - personally I think that would be unfair.

I doubt it will happen. Porsche tried to kill the 911 and rear engined layout, but they're stuck with it.

Believe me, should good fortune favour me - the first sports car I'd go out and buy is a 911; an R8 wouldn't get a second thought.


Well I'd go for a Cayman if we're talking Porsche sport cars.

[ I'd slap a CS engine and than meet your C4S on dry road, and make it a bumby twisty one. ]

I adore the Ferrari F430 and the Lamborghini Gallardo perhaps more so. That Lambo is so convincing as a modern day wedge-shaped supercar and it's as dramatic and lovely as anything ought to be out of Italy. The Gallardo's designers had it easy - there was always a rich, tangible frame of reference from whence to derive the Gallardo's stupendous good looks. It's heritage is undeniable: it's an Italian car, designed and built in Italy. It is funded by a German company and it does have some rather uncharacteristic looking buttons in the cabin, granted.

The R8 suffers from that same, nagging VWAG supercar identity crisis. Veyron included! It might be darned competent - there's no denying that - but, actually, I feel that the R8 is a daft looking supercar, festooned with OTT looking slashes, ribs and vents, Christmas decoration lights and a styling feature that's more akin to a carbon fibre Texan steak than an ooo-so-fancy sounding "sideblade".

We don't even have to flip a coin for it: you take the R8 (there's absolutely nothing wrong that choice) and I'll opt for the C4S being the grandpa that I am...

We'll I'd kind of agree. VW AG definatelly has an identity crisis as opposed to say Porsche but also BMW.

BTW, Carbon fibre is always good.

 

[Mr. M]

No offense taken Mirage. This is after all the forum for such comparative discussion and this is internal combustion all the same?

Yes, maybe Porsche does need a new model - I'd be delighted to see a new mid-engined sports car / supercar to assume the mantle of the 911. But can it be called a 911 - personally I think that would be unfair.

Contrary to what you may interpret, my reverance for the 911 isn't based on nostalgia - despite my having a healthy appreciation of the marque and its heritage. I don't walk around a 997 GT3 RS and go "ah, magnificence: the modern day iteration of the classic 1972 Carrera RS..."
No, I see a car that represents the pinnacle of performance and desirability in the modern idiom. A car so good that its engine generates a ludicrous amount of power and torque for a 3.6 litre flat-six without direct injection or individual throttle bodies per cylinder. A car so meticulously engineered that it weighs just 5 kg more than its predecessor.

I am no less appreciative of a 997 C4S when in its presence - albeit for slightly different reason of which I've explained.

Y'see Porsche know what 911 customers want and what they're prepared to accept in future generations. Believe me, should good fortune favour me - the first sports car I'd go out and buy is a 911; an R8 wouldn't get a second thought. This has nothing to do with sentimentalism, rather it's my own deep appreciation for all the things that make a 911 special on the inside and out.

I've been around too as you suggest in your generation gap comment and that doesn't stop me from appreciating cars in their most modern incarnations. In the same vein I recall all of VW's previous supercar concepts from W12s to Bentley Hunaudieres and Audi Rosemeyers. Each of them as unconvincing as the other as to their image and identity. The R8 suffers from the exact same affliction.

I adore the Ferrari F430 and the Lamborghini Gallardo perhaps more so. That Lambo is so convincing as a modern day wedge-shaped supercar and it's as dramatic and lovely as anything ought to be out of Italy. The Gallardo's designers had it easy - there was always a rich, tangible frame of reference from whence to derive the Gallardo's stupendous good looks. It's heritage is undeniable: it's an Italian car, designed and built in Italy. It is funded by a German company and it does have some rather uncharacteristic looking buttons in the cabin, granted.

The R8 suffers from that same, nagging VWAG supercar identity crisis. Veyron included! It might be darned competent - there's no denying that - but, actually, I feel that the R8 is a daft looking supercar, festooned with OTT looking slashes, ribs and vents, Christmas decoration lights and a styling feature that's more akin to a carbon fibre Texan steak than an ooo-so-fancy sounding "sideblade".

We don't even have to flip a coin for it: you take the R8 (there's absolutely nothing wrong that choice) and I'll opt for the C4S being the grandpa that I am...

Gotcha Martin, the 911's pure and focused and I know many people would like that, including yourself.

Good points. BTW, you're no grandpa! You're my and I believe, GCF's, best source for technical information.

 

[martinbo]

It's not the water cooled engine that is as much the problem as it is the electronical and/or mecanical direct and indirect aids taken from Formula 1 and the WRC witch make the 911 easy to drive, accessible to every one as opposed to the widow makers/death on 4 wheels meant for only and handfull few elite bastards.

IE, I'm sorry but in a modern day context that generalisation doesn't hold sway. I disagree, just because the 911 has been incrementally engineered over the years to be more "driver-friendly" doesn't make it any less exciting to drive. What you have to appreciate is that these modern cars are so much faster than their "death-trap" ancestors. Don't think you can have a 911 white-knuckle, heart in the mouth moment in a modern 997? Go watch any reputable motoring program... These new cars carry so much speed through a corner that, believe me, when taking a fast sweep flat-out at 180 km/h if you cock it up no amount of PASM, PSM, SPAM, Beef-jerky and Jack Daniels is going to save the day.

Besides which, your assertion of the engine being in the wrong place is completely contradictory with you stance on modern 911's becoming soft.

Esentially it became a badge poseur car (meant rather for executives/managers, lawyers, fashion people and their sons) as opposed to a special elitist car (meant for people who raced at LeMans, Mille Miglia, Spa, Nurburgring, Carrera Panamericana, Targa Florio, Sebring, Daytona, Laguna Seca).

The same can be said about any sporting car out there. These days real motoring elitists are few and far between. Welcome to the commodotised world of the 21st Century.

Nope it didn't. Think Zonda F.
But really the CGT didn't have the impact that the McLarean F1 (LM) had.

Zonda F??? The Zonda F had no impact whatsoever on CGT sales and appeared so late that the CGT was on the verge of being discontinued. The Zonda F is in such limited series production for cash-strapped Pagani that there simply aren't enough of them around to justify meaningful comparison.
Besides, this discussion is off-topic - I merely suggested the CGT as an example of how precisely Porsche understand the virtues of the mid-engined layout. Oh, and the CGT still is the quickest car of its kind around the Ring or Bedford or wherever so yes, a smearing was the order of the day - come what may.

The special thing about rear engined Porsches were that their were elite driver's cars demanding 110% concentration and above average driving skills and experience.
It's flaws demanded this, and thats why a handfull of weird, quirky, "sado-masochists" elite bastards loved them.

Driving any car to your or its limits demands 110% concentration. No matter how safe and easy to drive they might seem. This I say in my professional opinion - because I get paid to teach it.

Apart from the 993 (Turbo) and the 2.8 RSR I don't find any 911 as beautiful.
Tastes are subjective and I personally find the 300 SL, 540K SR, 328 MM roadster and 507 as the most beautiful german cars ever. The 911 isn't even on the chart IMO.

Taste is subjective; I like classic, timeless style but I'm not into antiques.

My mates are even worse, the use words like the "ugly frog" ... and if you try to reason with them they'll come up with "how many F1 WCs has Porsche won ?!" as opposed to Ferrari, McLaren ... or "it's got the engine in the wrong place".

So it's all relative.

Porsche's heritage and achievements in competition are unquestionable. Does anyone remember a certain race called Le Mans? In the modern day prospect of car ownership, Porsche's countless successes in all manner of endurance racing (remember that a 959 won the Paris Dakar for example) is a testament to their cars' legendary reliability - another mitigating factor in undestanding the supremacy of the most profitable car maker on the planet.

So yes, more relative than this, you can't get.

 

[Bruce]

We don't even have to flip a coin for it: you take the R8 (there's absolutely nothing wrong that choice) and I'll opt for the C4S being the grandpa that I am...

That's Rubbish Martin. You're no Grandpa!

While in this case I'd have to go with the R8, I would indeed take the Turbo version of the 911 over an F430.