Audi is creating synthetic diesel from air, water and green energy

[kingjr9000]

In the end no one has to be a rocket scientist to understand that we need alternative energy solutions and it's a no-brain'er that all possibilities has to be tried and tested. That said, from the facts I have gathered up to now the facts remains that battery power and electric cars is also not sustainable. Battery technology (non speaking range etc.) but manufacturing is pollution x2. The energy demand on electric power stations and the grids around the globe = pollution-extreme. Thus the tech as you describe and also synthetic fuels seems the best, most sustainable and most logical solution for the Automotive industry. I just hope that more money will be allocated to the Automotive participants by governments to exploit these brilliant tech.

I am proud of the German-Automotive giants and their achievements, not only in tech but logical energy saving solutions. (that excludes hybrid tech IMHO, I see it as a phase of testing possibilities and not a solution)

So you think battery cars won't last? How so? I thought that Musk's mega Nevada battery plant was supposed to manufacture batteries and make them cheaper. (Don't take this as an offensive question as I'm genuinely interested in why you think batteries won't last and alternative fuel is the only way.)

 

[Human]

So you think battery cars won't last? How so? I thought that Musk's mega Nevada battery plant was supposed to manufacture batteries and make them cheaper. (Don't take this as an offensive question as I'm genuinely interested in why you think batteries won't last and alternative fuel is the only way.)

If some 'super battery' without all the scarce elements needed in manufacturing that has to be shipped around the world with crude-eating Container ships sees the day of light. Also if Power-generating power stations around the globe on all continents become clean sustainable wind farms or non-polluting Nuclear plants (don't know what's going to happen with the Nuclear waste), then maybe...

See 2/3'ds of the worlds countries including China and India also Africa's most developed and most modern - my country South Africa (heck, even the epitome of technological development Germany) burn Coal to generate electricity. And believe me from recent experience that of damage to one coal silo at a local power plant (SA has 5 massive coal burning plants and one Nuclear Plant) brings load shedding to an entire nation! Each of these plants around the world puts thousands of metric tons of CO2 into the atmosphere. Now imagine the enormous strain and polluting effect tens-of-millions of electric cars, charging their batteries connected to power generating stations/grids around the globe will have?

 

[Gianclaudio]

Dear Naas, however you're missing the part that refining gasoline or diesel is already a very polluting process, that fuel transportation is expensier and requires more energy than transporting electricity, that an e motor is much, much efficient than a traditional pistons internal combustion engine.... There are shiploads of variables which are not taken in the equation. Just as we don't know exactly how much producing electricity and batteries pollute, or the waste management of batteries, alas, we are not taking in count the huge impact fossil or even alternative fuels have on the environment, from the exploration, harvesting, refining, transporting and finally, burning in an engine.

Yes, burning coal or gas in a power station is polluting, but so is, and probably more, the whole refining and transporting fossil fuels for car's consumption....

 

[Sunny]

Two wrongs don't make right. The fix for coal burning power plants is to stop burning coal and move to other renewable sources. Not continue to burn fossil fuel in your car. That is a false choice.

There has been multitude of studies on well-to-wheel efficiency between electrical cars and fossil fuel cars. While the results vary depending on specific circumstances and market, all most all studies (at least ones not not funded by the oil industry) show electrical cars being being better by varying degrees. I have posted many here myself, I am not going to rehash them again.

But the 2 facts that really make electrical cars compulsive and almost inevitable are -
a. An electrical motor is 90% efficient in converting stored energy into kinetic energy vs < 30% for an ICE.
b. An electric car can convert kinetic energy back to potential energy for future use while an ICE cannot.

Almost all other other arguments are really tangential to the ICE vs electrical car argument and arises out of the specific circumstance a society/market finds itself in and can be addressed/fixed independent of the electrical car vs ICE argument.

 

[Human]

Dear Naas, however you're missing the part that refining gasoline or diesel is already a very polluting process, that fuel transportation is expensier and requires more energy than transporting electricity, that an e motor is much, much efficient than a traditional pistons internal combustion engine.... There are shiploads of variables which are not taken in the equation. Just as we don't know exactly how much producing electricity and batteries pollute, or the waste management of batteries, alas, we are not taking in count the huge impact fossil or even alternative fuels have on the environment, from the exploration, harvesting, refining, transporting and finally, burning in an engine.

Yes, burning coal or gas in a power station is polluting, but so is, and probably more, the whole refining and transporting fossil fuels for car's consumption....

Also transporting coal to the Power stations here in SA...

I understand there is many angles to a huge issue. I will however (stupid, hardass-whatever I may be viewed as) never be convinced that from mining - through the whole treturous process of manufacturing - to battery, also the copper mining for electrical motor components etc. etc. etc. will battery power or can it be the Ultimate Solution to saving the planet - BS.

Edit: I suspect however that Alternative Energy funding and also Agriculture (crop production in Maize also Cane Sugar for BioFuel) can be dealt a blow by the OPEC countries desicion to give us cheap energy in abundance with the low Crude price - The political war on energy-production is starting to take shape!

 

[Gianclaudio]

No, not at all dear Naas. I think no one can claim to have the ultimate answer, but as Sunny points, electric motors are way, way more efficient than traditional pistons ICE. Don't forget electricity isn't just made by coal burning or nuclear, there is solar, geothermal, wind and hydraulic energy making processes with none to moderate (hydraulic) impact on the environment, or even cleaner hydrocarbons fuels like methane or natural gas (which is not a product of a refinery, thus eliminating an energy absorbing process) as alternative to coal, even low sulfur one. I live about 3-4 miles from a natural gas electricity power station, and there are no visible fumes, odours or soot coming out of it. Their gas turbines use the exhaust heat to produce secundary energy with boiling water for steam turbines.

I don't think ethanol as bio fuel is an answer. You have to grow the plants, a process which use the mechanical force of farm tractors (thus burning fuel), transport them to the plant, extract the juice out of the cane, ferment the juice in to an alcohol solution and then distillate the product, and finally remove the remaining 4% water out of it, as ethanol can't be distilled more than 96% by mechanical/physic methods.
And in the case of maize, other grains or potatoes, you have to add another energy requiring stage, which is to transform the starch into sugar which then will be fermented into the alcohol solution.

And methanol/ethanol are fuels with less calories compared to gasoline, which means more fuel is needed. When I was a kid my father had an ethanol-only Fiat (made in Brazil, which is a huge producer/user of ethanol up to these days) so I still remember how regular going to the other side of town (the only one) ethanol stations was. As a funny memory, the plans for opening an ethanol station outside an ethanol/sugar industry which is just about a mile from his home never fully realized, and then ethanol went out of vehicle's use.

Finally, happy 2015 my dear friend, for you and your family, glad to see you back posting regularly, and I promise to visit you soon and discovering beautiful SA while we eat a nice beef, braai style

 

[KiwiRob]

Dear Naas, however you're missing the part that refining gasoline or diesel is already a very polluting process, that fuel transportation is expensier and requires more energy than transporting electricity, that an e motor is much, much efficient than a traditional pistons internal combustion engine.... There are shiploads of variables which are not taken in the equation. Just as we don't know exactly how much producing electricity and batteries pollute, or the waste management of batteries, alas, we are not taking in count the huge impact fossil or even alternative fuels have on the environment, from the exploration, harvesting, refining, transporting and finally, burning in an engine.

Yes, burning coal or gas in a power station is polluting, but so is, and probably more, the whole refining and transporting fossil fuels for car's consumption....

But Audi's process is clean. You could build small plants all around cities and sell direct from the plant, that would eliminate the need to transport fuel from terminals to outlets, or at least remove large trucks from the roads in favour of smaller localised delivery trucks.

 

[Human]

But Audi's process is clean. You could build small plants all around cities and sell direct from the plant, that would eliminate the need to transport fuel from terminals to outlets, or at least remove large trucks from the roads in favour of smaller localised delivery trucks.

Indeed, very clean energy and in countries like South Africa + Africa, China, Brazil, India, Pakistan etc. It can create and add to the much-much needed jobs for sustainable growth.

 

[Sunny]

But Audi's process is clean.

Audi's process needs freaking electricity!!! Are you going to tell me now burning coal to generate electricity to run this process is somehow magically okay? But to charge electric cars is not. Or is the world suddenly going to have green electricity to run these plants but not charge electric cars?

So in one case you have:
Generate electricity -> Charge Battery -> Use Electric motors that work @ ~90% and can recuperate energy and has 0 emissions

And the other case:
Generate electricity -> Run this Audi's crude oil making plant -> Purify crude to diesel -> Use ICE that works @ ~30% and can't recuperate energy and has emissions.

No offense guys, but how is this even a debate?

I think no one can claim to have the ultimate answer

I see this too often, make perfect the enemy of good to stick with status quo!

 

[KiwiRob]

Everything will need electricity, but with Audis process you can fill you car and get maximum range in a couple of minutes rather than hours for pure electric vehicles. It will likely take decades to overcome this little problem.

If the electricity is generated from a clean source the exhaust emissions are co2 neutral.

http://www.audi.com/com/brand/en/vo...nt/2013/10/energy-turnaround-in-the-tank.html

 

[Sunny]

^Don't go on stupid tangents. Yes electric cars have range limitations. That is not the debate here. The debate was are electric cars bad cause it needs electricity and the world burns coal to generate some of that electricity. And you can't then offer a solution that also uses electricity in an even more inefficient way!

 

[KiwiRob]

If you use renewable electricty then Audi's solution is co2 neutral. Plus if everyone converts to electric vehicles imagine the additional load on a shitty grid like in the US, it would need significant additional capacity, which would probably in the short term come from chopping the tops off more appalachian mountains. Another massive environmental disaster which has been long swept under the rug.

Electric vehicles are a short term sop to the greenies answer to a long term problem.

 

[Sunny]

If you use renewable electricty then Audi's solution is co2 neutral.

You keep posting this. But somehow the renewable electric energy is not available to charge electric cars?

Plus if everyone converts to electric vehicles imagine the additional load on a shitty grid like in the US, it would need significant additional capacity, which would probably in the short term come from chopping the tops off more appalachian mountains. Another massive environmental disaster which has been long swept under the rug.

Electric vehicles are a short term sop to the greenies answer to a long term problem.

And if everyone starts to use this Audi plant, it is not going to bring down the same "shitty" grid?

Anyway we just recently had the discussion on US capacity and I posted links to prove US electric grid has more than enough capacity to handle future electric car sales for a long time - http://www.germancarforum.com/threads/only-electric-bmws-in-10-years.52057/#post-720466
The fact you bringing it up again shows you either don't have adequate intelligence to absorb stuff or is just a douche bag that is some how related to the oil industry. Probably both.

 

[Sunny]

Back to the topic about this fantastic Audi plant. It makes 42 gallons a day. Yea all of 42 gallons in a whole day, i.e, 2.5 family sedans a day. Yea, that should stop global warming dead in it's tracks!

On serious note, this sounds like one of the shitty projects that oil industry sponsors so that it can take an ad saying how it is spending billions on renewable energy.

 

[Gianclaudio]

But Audi's process is clean. You could build small plants all around cities and sell direct from the plant, that would eliminate the need to transport fuel from terminals to outlets, or at least remove large trucks from the roads in favour of smaller localised delivery trucks.

I think you missed this:

The amount of CO2 used when the fuel is burned matches the amount that is consumed when the fuel is made.

How is it clean then? Once again, you are not willing to discuss, just to have your right.

So is better to use the electricity, from whichever source, in a process to create fuel, then transport that fuel in a more polluting way than pure electricity to latter be burned at luckily close to 30% efficiency when an electric motor is transforming one energy form into another at easily 90% ?

In fact, @Sunny, that 20-30% pistons ICE get are under very specific conditions, so, if the engine isn't working on its optimal temperature, or foremost, in its best rpm point, efficiency is even worse. Getting those conditions on everyday driving is an utopia.
While on the other hand, e motors tend to have less variations on efficiency compared to an ICE, under different loads.
Also, 90% is a fairly conservative number, there are e motors approaching 98% at this moment.

And that's before we add maintenance as a factor to the equation, as spare parts mean adding extra manufacturing processes thus pollution.
Let me see, in my everyday experience.... all the e motors on my hand tools and my air compressor: 6-7 years running ontouched. My fridge, 20 years, the ceiling fan or the swimming pool's filter pump on my parents house...old as me, so 33 years and running strong.
Let's compare to the Briggs & Stratton on my lawn mover or my Stihl trimmer.... Mmmm

 

[Human]

I think you missed this:


How is it clean then? Once again, you are not willing to discuss, just to have your right.

So is better to use the electricity, from whichever source, in a process to create fuel, then transport that fuel in a more polluting way than pure electricity to latter be burned at luckily close to 30% efficiency when an electric motor is transforming one energy form into another at easily 90% ?

In fact, @Sunny, that 20-30% pistons ICE get are under very specific conditions, so, if the engine isn't working on its optimal temperature, or foremost, in its best rpm point, efficiency is even worse. Getting those conditions on everyday driving is an utopia.
While on the other hand, e motors tend to minor variations on efficiency compared to an ICE, under different loads.
Also, 90% is a fairly conservative number, there are e motors approaching 98% at this moment.

And that's before we add maintenance as a factor to the equation, as spare parts mean adding extra manufacturing processes thus pollution.
Let me see, in my everyday experience.... all the e motors on my hand tools and my air compressor: 6-7 years running ontouched. My fridge, 20 years, the ceiling fan or the swimming pool's filter pump on my parents house...old as me, so 33 years and running strong.
Let's compare to the Briggs & Stratton on my lawn mover or my Stihl trimmer.... Mmmm

Treehugger!

On a serious note, useful debate. I just really want the internal combustion engine to survive in a responsible manner. So every new try at it is more than welcome, I say!

 

[martinbo]

Viewed objectively from an engineering perspective, ICE-powered cars are 20th century technology with a whole lot of unnecessary shit going on just to turn some wheels with tyres fitted to them for the purposes of making contact with a road surface. It's backward and it needs to go sooner rather than later.

The Human Race needs to invest in turning electrical energy into a viable, sustainable, renewable, efficient, healthy etc form of power generation. An inordinate and unbalanced amount of effort is expended by car companies on a massive global scale in order to pursue a noisy, thrashy, over-complicated, inefficient, polluting form of personal transport. Just look at the ridiculous amount of infrastructure in place just to make some whirly bits move in order for Mrs Jones to take Tommy and Suzie to school. Gas stations (ugh what vile born-of-necessity urban and countryside blights), fuel tankers, refineries and fuel depots... Sure, you're never going to completely remove fossil fuel-centric infrastructure but we would make do with much, much less of it, especially if we can recharge vehicles at home, work, out shopping, at the local pub, the nearest brothel and so on...

The world needs better batteries, cheaper and more efficient solar panels (as range extenders) and more efficient use of modern materials not turbos, direct injection and 10 speed automatic transmissions carefully manipulated to come under some arbitrarily applied emissions regulations.

 

[Human]

Viewed objectively from an engineering perspective, ICE-powered cars are 20th century technology with a whole lot of unnecessary shit going on just to turn some wheels with tyres fitted to them for the purposes of making contact with a road surface. It's backward and it needs to go sooner rather than later.

The Human Race needs to invest in turning electrical energy into a viable, sustainable, renewable, efficient, healthy etc form of power generation. An inordinate and unbalanced amount of effort is expended by car companies on a massive global scale in order to pursue a noisy, thrashy, over-complicated, inefficient, polluting form of personal transport. Just look at the ridiculous amount of infrastructure in place just to make some whirly bits move in order for Mrs Jones to take Tommy and Suzie to school. Gas stations (ugh what vile born-of-necessity urban and countryside blights), fuel tankers, refineries and fuel depots... Sure, you're never going to completely remove fossil fuel-centric infrastructure but we would make do with much, much less of it, especially if we can recharge vehicles at home, work, out shopping, at the local pub, the nearest brothel and so on...

The world needs better batteries, cheaper and more efficient solar panels (as range extenders) and more efficient use of modern materials not turbos, direct injection and 10 speed automatic transmissions carefully manipulated to come under some arbitrarily applied emissions regulations.

Says the new appointed Chairman of Greenpeace Intl. And he's on holiday...

Wat het oor jou lewe geloop boet!? Given you have point or two.

I get it though I am old school and starting to get senile, I think. I want a new 2015 Cadillac Escalade Platinum BADLY! really dig body-on-frame large luxury truck based SUV's these days. And two years ago I hated them. I guess we do change with age hey!?

 

[martinbo]

Says the new appointed Chairman of Greenpeace Intl. And he's on holiday...

Lekker nog steeds by die Wil'e Kus my maat. Bly Kalm, nou gaan ons braai.

Wat het oor jou lewe geloop boet!? Given you have point or two.

It's a massive, massive, massive amount of industrial, financial, human, time and natural resource expenditure just to make automobiles. Just look at a comparatively tiny player like Tesla and see what has been achieved. Imagine all that effort going instead into electrical cars today - where would we be now?
I want an electric car; I want max torque at zero rpm; I want a quieter neighbourhood; I want superior packaging and weight distribution and a lower centre of gravity; I want as standard torque vectoring without having to kiss some manufacturer's arse before getting fleeced out of my hard-earned money; I want Drift Mode at the push of a button and rain mode at the push of another. I want all of this because it's better for me.

I get it though I am old school and getting senile, I think. I want a new 2015 Cadillac Escalade Platinum BADLY! really dig body-on-frame large luxury truck based SUV's these days. And two years ago I hated them. I guess we do change with age hey!?

Boet, your problem is that you don't eat your vegetables! Makes you go moggy.

Jenna says "Hi" and asks if "you still live in Clarens?"

 

[KiwiRob]

Says the new appointed Chairman of Greenpeace Intl. And he's on holiday...

Wat het oor jou lewe geloop boet!? Given you have point or two.

Who in their right minds would take any notice of Greenpeace after what they did to Nazca Lines last year.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/greenpeace.asp