F1 2008 Chinese Grand Prix

[Gene]

Whether or not he has a terrible personality doesn't mean he should be penalized or lose the championship.



That would be pretty sh*tty wouldn't it? Being the best driver, or winning the world championship, isn't (and shouldn't) be a popularity contest. Rooting against a driver is one thing, fixing the race is another.

Unfortunately thats life isn't it? As the old saying goes "its not what you know, its who you know". There's also another saying: "Karma, its a bitch isn't it?". Fact is that drivers don't like the aggressive style of Hamilton. Kubica, Alonso, Webber and Trulli are examples of drivers who have publicly expressed this fact. And why shouldn't they? Its their lives on the road that they have to protect, and if someone decides they want to risk that in order to get past you, then I would voice my opinion too. Plus its not like they can voice their opinions amongst themselves, because thats right, Hamilton refuses to be part of the Drivers Association.

Besides, since when was F1 fair? Since the start of F1, it never has been fair - thats the nature of F1. If F1 was fair, then everyone would have equal cars with equal crews and equal budgets. Heck, who knows if Hamilton/Massa really is the best driver? All we know for sure is that McLaren and Ferrari have the best cars/crews/design teams for 2008.

Having been treated as a second class citizen by FIA I now authorize Hamilton to act as cocky as he likes. I would be that as well if FIA were penalizing you for nothing while letting the main competitor slip away from every single misterminor.

You realise, whatever the FIA do, they can't win. If they take one decision, they will be blasted by one camp for not acting. If they take another decision, they will blasted by the other camp. Unfortunately, I'm in the opposing camp to you. I think Hamilton deserves everything he's been given.

 

[modena_360stradale]

Unfortunately thats life isn't it? As the old saying goes "its not what you know, its who you know". There's also another saying: "Karma, its a bitch isn't it?". Fact is that drivers don't like the aggressive style of Hamilton. Kubica, Alonso, Webber and Trulli are examples of drivers who have publicly expressed this fact. And why shouldn't they? Its their lives on the road that they have to protect, and if someone decides they want to risk that in order to get past you, then I would voice my opinion too. Plus its not like they can voice their opinions amongst themselves, because thats right, Hamilton refuses to be part of the Drivers Association.

And they can have all the personal opinions about Hamilton they choose. In fact, they can lobby against his driving style, or argue he ought to be banned for being reckless and dangerous. But (like we were talking about before) his personality should have no sway in the argument over giving him a penalty.

Besides, since when was F1 fair? Since the start of F1, it never has been fair - thats the nature of F1. If F1 was fair, then everyone would have equal cars with equal crews and equal budgets.

The fundamental tenet of fairness is letting each person win or fail by his own abilities. Fairness does not include handicapping one person and benefitting another.

Heck, who knows if Hamilton/Massa really is the best driver? All we know for sure is that McLaren and Ferrari have the best cars/crews/design teams for 2008.

I beg to differ. I get the feeling driving a car is a bit like playing music: a Stradivarius in the hands of Heifetz will sound like the voice of God; a Stradivarius in the hands of an amateur will sound like a Yamaha.

Unfortunately, I'm in the opposing camp to you. I think Hamilton deserves everything he's been given.

And you're entitled to your own opinions, and I'm glad to hear your side of the argument, but your personal disdain for Hamilton's recent (and admittedly) poor character is no reason to believe he deserves any penalties.

Penalties are given for violations of rules, not for flaws of personality.

 

[Gene]

And they can have all the personal opinions about Hamilton they choose. In fact, they can lobby against his driving style, or argue he ought to be banned for being reckless and dangerous. But (like we were talking about before) his personality should have no sway in the argument over giving him a penalty.

I think there's a misunderstanding. I agree - a personality shouldn't affect whether you get a penalty or not. What I'm saying, is that your personality will determine if your liked among your peers, and how you relate to your peers determines whether your peers will back you when you are given a penalty. In this case, his fellow drivers appear to be on the opposing side of the fence.

The fundamental tenet of fairness is letting each person win or fail by his own abilities. Fairness does not include handicapping one person and benefitting another.

And you're entitled to your own opinions, and I'm glad to hear your side of the argument, but your personal disdain for Hamilton's recent (and admittedly) poor character is no reason to believe he deserves any penalties.

Penalties are given for violations of rules, not for flaws of personality.

Unfortunately this is an argument that neither of us can win. You are automatically assuming that Hamilton was singled out and penalized unfairly compared to other... this is your perogative. On the other hand, I think Hamilton deserves everything he's received, not because of his personality, but because of his driving style and his extreme aggressiveness. The fact is that we as the audience simply don't have the numbers, facts and talent to back these things up. On the other hand, the FIA and drivers have all of these to make a more informed decision. The decision has been made. Make of it as you will, because it ain't being reversed.

In saying this, last year, several people argued that Hamilton was being unfairly favoured by the FIA (e.g. Germany where his car was put back onto the track). Like I said, the FIA can't win whatever they do.

 

[MoSs]

Hamilton hits back at critics

Hamilton hits back at critics


Lewis Hamilton has hit back at critics who have accused him of being arrogant and over-confident, especially following what many saw as a hot-headed first couple of laps in the Japanese Grand Prix which dropped the championship leader from pole to the back of the field.

"I would never say I was better than anyone else," Hamilton said on his official site. "But I am a Formula 1 driver and all of us have to believe in ourselves to get to where we are. You have to have that belief to go out and win: and that's what helps you strive for better performance and to achieve more in your life. I look at the other drivers and I want to beat them. I would never say, 'I'm better than you,' I just think that all these guys are the best and to be the best I have to beat them. That's how every racing driver sees things."

Hamilton also denied reports that he claimed he was a better driver than Ayrton Senna saying, "I never said that - and I definitely wouldn't say it about Ayrton because he's my favourite driver. I think he's the best driver there ever was and, to this day, I still don't believe anyone would beat him. If I could achieve just a small part of what he's achieved, it would be a dream for me."

 

[modena_360stradale]

I think there's a misunderstanding. I agree - a personality shouldn't affect whether you get a penalty or not. What I'm saying, is that your personality will determine if your liked among your peers, and how you relate to your peers determines whether your peers will back you when you are given a penalty. In this case, his fellow drivers appear to be on the opposing side of the fence.

Good, then we agree

I was under the impression (from this quote: "One thing has become apparant, however, and that is many drivers dislike him, tending to agree with the stewards when they penalize him.") that you were using this as justification for his penalties.

Unfortunately this is an argument that neither of us can win. You are automatically assuming that Hamilton was singled out and penalized unfairly compared to other... this is your perogative.

I was pointing out that agreeing or disagreeing with a penalty should have nothing to do with your estimation of his character. If Hamilton's grown a big head, so be it, it doesn't mean the penalties were deserved.

On the other hand, I think Hamilton deserves everything he's received, not because of his personality

Très bon

The best driver should win. I hope, as you said before, Alonso doesn't use his new found speed to try to hold Hamilton back and let Massa run free up the field.

 

[Gene]

Good, then we agree

I was under the impression (from this quote: "One thing has become apparant, however, and that is many drivers dislike him, tending to agree with the stewards when they penalize him.") that you were using this as justification for his penalties.

It should have been rephrased to: "One thing has become apparant, drivers tend to dislike him. For example, when stewards penalize him, the other drivers tend to have little sympathy for him."

I was pointing out that agreeing or disagreeing with a penalty should have nothing to do with your estimation of his character. If Hamilton's grown a big head, so be it, it doesn't mean the penalties were deserved.

On retrospect, to a certain degree the penalties to relate to his personality. For example, everyone agrees he was overly aggressive into the first corner of the Japanese GP, which resulted in a penalty. This is directly related to his personality, because for whatever reason, he decided he needed to stay in front of Kimi regardless of the consequences. This isn't to say that he was penalized because of his big head, he was penalized due to his 'racing personality'.

Très bon

The best driver should win. I hope, as you said before, Alonso doesn't use his new found speed to try to hold Hamilton back and let Massa run free up the field.

For me the ideal situation would be if three drivers, Hamilton, Massa and Kubica are within striking distance of the WDC by the Brazil GP. Massa crashes out and Hamilton screws up somehow but gets in a position to barely win the Championship. But Alonso concedes a place to let Kubica by allowing him to win the WDC. Sad but true, I just really don't like Hamilton and as evil as it seems, would like to see the WDC slip through his fingers again. I'm evil... sue me. As you said, let the best driver win, and I think Kubica is the best based on his performances in a slower car.

 

[modena_360stradale]

It should have been rephrased to: "One thing has become apparant, drivers tend to dislike him. For example, when stewards penalize him, the other drivers tend to have little sympathy for him."

This is directly related to his personality, because for whatever reason, he decided he needed to stay in front of Kimi regardless of the consequences.

Yeah, it was a rash move but I guess he felt he had to 'make up' for his bad start. Maybe he was afraid if Raikkonen got in front of him he would stop up the field and give Massa a chance to pass both of them.

Sad but true, I just really don't like Hamilton and as evil as it seems, would like to see the WDC slip through his fingers again. I'm evil... sue me.

lol

For me the ideal situation would be if three drivers, Hamilton, Massa and Kubica are within striking distance of the WDC by the Brazil GP. Massa crashes out and Hamilton screws up somehow but gets in a position to barely win the Championship. But Alonso concedes a place to let Kubica by allowing him to win the WDC...

It'd be incredible if the season went down to the last lap of the last race

I think it was Centurion who said if Hamilton finishes 6 points ahead of Massa in the next race, he'll win the championship right there. I get the feeling, though, that if it happened, the stewards (either out of love for Ferrari or with the interests of business in mind) would make sure Massa moved up to gain another point

 

[Zonda]

There's an interesting poll today at Formula1.com. Looks like Lewis is losing alot of fans.

 

[MoSs]

Friday, first free practice
Pos. Driver Team Tires Time Laps
1 L. Hamilton McLaren 1:35.630 23
2 F. Massa Ferrari 1:36.020 24
3 K. Räikkönen Ferrari 1:36.052 23
4 H. Kovalainen McLaren 1:36.103 21
5 R. Kubica BMW 1:36.507 25
6 F. Alonso Renault 1:36.661 24
7 N. Heidfeld BMW 1:37.040 23
8 S. Bourdais Scuderia Toro Rosso 1:37.070 32
9 N. Piquet jr. Renault 1:37.180 30
10 S. Vettel Scuderia Toro Rosso 1:37.278 25
11 M. Webber Red Bull 1:37.491 25
12 J. Button Honda 1:37.619 25
13 K. Nakajima Williams 1:37.630 23
14 D. Coulthard Red Bull 1:37.638 22
15 N. Rosberg Williams 1:37.638 26
16 T. Glock Toyota 1:37.664 29
17 R. Barrichello Honda 1:37.827 28
18 J. Trulli Toyota 1:38.219 24
19 A. Sutil Force India F1 1:38.285 25
20 G. Fisichella Force India F1 1:38.479 26

 

[MoSs]

Friday, second free practice
Pos. Driver Team Tires Time Laps
1 L. Hamilton McLaren 1:35.750 33
2 F. Alonso Renault 1:36.024 36
3 N. Piquet jr. Renault 1:36.094 38
4 J. Trulli Toyota 1:36.159 32
5 M. Webber Red Bull 1:36.375 38
6 F. Massa Ferrari 1:36.480 31
7 S. Bourdais Scuderia Toro Rosso 1:36.529 32
8 K. Räikkönen Ferrari 1:36.542 34
9 N. Heidfeld BMW 1:36.553 38
10 N. Rosberg Williams 1:36.556 33
11 T. Glock Toyota 1:36.615 33
12 R. Kubica BMW 1:36.775 37
13 H. Kovalainen McLaren 1:36.797 33
14 D. Coulthard Red Bull 1:36.808 36
15 S. Vettel Scuderia Toro Rosso 1:36.925 38
16 K. Nakajima Williams 1:36.975 31
17 G. Fisichella Force India F1 1:37.473 38
18 A. Sutil Force India F1 1:37.617 33
19 J. Button Honda 1:37.800 37
20 R. Barrichello Honda 1:37.904 36

 

[Centurion]

Lewis on top during practise but I've lost all my energy to cheer since I known that FIA will find yet another reason to punish him for nothing while letting whatever Ferrari do slip away. Just like in Valencia where Massa should have received a drive-through for unsafe pit release, instead they gave him that punishment in Singapore after it was clear that the race was already lost. Or when Hamilton was finalized in Spa for cutting the chicane, giving the position back and proceeding with the race after being given a thumb up by Race Control, while Alonso cut the chicane in Singapore and gained two position without even being investigated. Or When race controlled contacted Ferrari in Monza instructing Massa to give his position back to Rosberg after cutting the chicane during overtaking.

I have no problems with Massa winning or another driver than Hamilton but if they do then it should be on fair grounds.


Pair that with the fact that FIA run by a disgusting man of Max Mosley as well as them sacking Canada and Silverstone, I feel that my interest for F1 is hanging by a thin thread.

 

[Remy Zero]

i think we all should quit whining and move on.

 

[MoSs]

i agree with centurion from the start of the season hamilton never had a fair race, and the closer it gets to the end of the season the harder they make it on him, he did make a couple of stupid mistakes , but they all do!... i wonder whats gonna happen in the next 2 races, lets hope for a cheat free challenging racing...

 

[Gullwing]

i think we all should quit whining and move on.

We are all sure you would not whin and move on if Massa was treated as bad as Hamilton.

 

[bmwownage]

It's just frustrating to watch, really lost a lot of interest in F1... when some team 'becomes' competitive against Ferrari, all sorts of things happen to that team.

 

[Remy Zero]

We are all sure you would not whin and move on if Massa was treated as bad as Hamilton.

i think Ferrari was treated unfairly back in 2005. but that doesn't matter. it's not like Hammi's a saint or something. when u jump chicanes, when u ram someone from behind, when u jump the red lights, what do u expect?

and yes, for the record, F1 has become a joke lately, that SeaBass penalty was really questionable.

 

[warot]

damn it kubica

 

[LaArtist]

freakin amazing lewis. He must have been heavier than both kova and Kimi. I just hope he can make it through the first corners without probs tomorrow

 

[justanthony]

freakin amazing lewis. He must have been heavier than both kova and Kimi. I just hope he can make it through the first corners without probs tomorrow

Kimi probably, but he's hardly ever heavier than Kova. HOWEVER, i think Kova's day is done. I mean he's had a full season now and it aint like he's a rookie or something. Driving the best car! The guy just has no belly for a fight. The guy has done NOTHING to aid Lewis (or the teams) cause

 

[Remy Zero]

since there's a lot of tension here...here's a pic to chill u guys out