1er / 2er future models: Scott26 reports; part 2

[EnI]

Bmw is looking to much into horse power wars. a pity if you ask me. They could rather go look into lighten the cars. And build CSL like cars that s how a m3 should be in the first place. A car don t need v8 or v10 engine if they keep the weight down. All cars above 1400kg brings nothing special in driving dynamics. Even 1400kg is on the heavy side.

Main market for M cars are still the US. HP numbers still have a lot of magic there. There is no way - in marketing POV - to avoid high HP numbers in premium segment. For now.

But BMW are aware HP is an easy reach fore every car maker today - in turbo era. So, they are dedicated to get performance also with decreasing car's weight. Power-to-weight ratio will become more important - also in marketing POV. BMW will point out that in every future promotional campaign.

Automotive world will be very pleasently surprised with new M3 weight - end even more with power-to-weight ratio.

In the future BMW will be even more focused on lightweight construction. Technoligically almost everything is possible, only costs are the limit. BMW cars have to be priced reasonly, and make profit.

I'm sorry to say, but BMW will focus on turbo engines more and more. Also M will see turbo quite soon: smaller displacement, lighter engines, more power & torque, less gas consuption, etc. Benefits are huge - especially now when turbos can be as smooth and responsive as NA engines.

 

[Centurion]

THis whole M2 project(if there is one) seem very interesting and the car will be pretty much unique with no competitors. It will be like an RX8 type of thing.
Personally I don't think that it would be profitable for BMW to focus alot of their resources on CSL type of cars. The manufacturer builds cars for the mass and not many people can't afford and not want to drive a car which is uncomfortable and bumpy like the CSL or GT3RS

 

[AdvEvo]

Enilab say :Automotive world will be very pleasently surprised with new M3 weight - end even more with power-to-weight ratio.

I will be very surprised if this car will be the same weight of the outgoing e46 m3 that is 1470kg. My quess is it will not be under 1500kg. If it is however lighter than 1470kg i might consider buying one.

Who knows what the e46 m3 GTR street version was on the scales. Just found it aproxx 1350kg dryweight. If the new m3 v8 has the weight of that i buy one.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

THis whole M2 project(if there is one) seem very interesting and the car will be pretty much unique with no competitors. It will be like an RX8 type of thing.

Well it should be like that.

Personally I don't think that it would be profitable for BMW to focus alot of their resources on CSL type of cars.

It depens on the pricing and sales.

The manufacturer builds cars for the mass and not many people can't afford and not want to drive a car which is uncomfortable and bumpy like the CSL or GT3RS

Well it doesn't necesarily have to be uncomfortable and bumpy.


[For people who don't know BMW history]

1. The 2002 was a 2 door sedan. One of the reason it was 2 door was to save weight/improve acceleration/improve braking/fuel eficiency.
This car weighted 1080 kilo / 2381 lb.
Compare that to the supercars of today, and the little bimmer wins without using carbon fibre and so on.
And another thing, this car was just about the most agile car made in Germany. This car could actualy challange a Mini on the bends/corners, on Porsche 911 that was complete suicide (becase of the tail happy-ness).

2. Now the other great BMW car the 328. It's weight, between 700 and 800 Kg depending on the body.
While light and a true sport car, this cars wasn't a spartan car like the rest of the bunch. It was quite comfortable for a sport car, and noise wasn't a problem either.
And this was before Porsche actualy made cars, and long before the CSL.

[/For people who don't know BMW history]

The way I see it, making light cars for BMW is just going back to the roots.
Using once again the recepy that made BMW great.
Sadly today's standards (safety etc.) means cars are alot heavyer and to lose weight you need expensive materials.

 

[Matt]

Let me explain something:

1. E86 & E89 2-series cabrio & coupe are coming next year (Europe)
2. 2-series will be sold in US, 1-series (the hatch) won't
3. there will be no M1 (hatch), only "si" version - not decided yet what engine
4. there is no decision taken yet whether to build M2 or not - still on hold

BMW are aiming to re-introduce the legendary 02-series (2002i) with the new 2er. So, the car have to be nimble & agile. Chasis engineers are tweaking the E86/9 chasis - to make it more capable than the hatch's one. The I6 proved to be too heavy for sporty top-end 1er / 2er. Therefore I4T is in the work for the top model "si" - and can be tweaked to M, if necessary for M2.

235i - I doubt it. That would mean 2er coupe/cabrio and 3er coupe/cabrio top versions (except M version) would be the same - BMW marketing would never do that, believe me.

The future is: turbo. I4T, I6T, V8T, V12T.

Audi is going also this way: S3 with 2.0L 4-cylindre 250+hp TFSI

So, expect M2 or "si" with I4 turbo with 280-300PS.

Remember: smaller models, lower prices, lower profit margin. So, M2 will be there only if it pays off. M resources are needed for more important, more profitable products ... So, M2 engine - if there will be M2 - will be a derivate of a standard engine, not made from scratch.

Do you remember how they never renamed the 3 coupe a 4 series, well they're not planning to do that with the 1 series either. It will be the 1 series in the coupe form and it will get the 3.0 litre turbo, you can count on that. The M1/2 has not been confirmed and may never be. I think BMW is still debating whether to build that.

 

[LonghornTX]

Do you remember how they never renamed the 3 coupe a 4 series, well they're not planning to do that with the 1 series either. It will be the 1 series in the coupe form and it will get the 3.0 litre turbo, you can count on that. The M1/2 has not been confirmed and may never be. I think BMW is still debating whether to build that.

Sorry but I am going to have to respectfully disagree. With the 3 vs. 4 naming scheme BMW would have lost heritage value by changing, something that could be potentially very damaging to such an image conscious cars as the 3. However, with the 1 vs. 2, there is no previous heritage for the 1 while there is a WHOLE LOT of heritage related to the number 2. Think about all the add campaigns comparing the old 2002 to the new 2-series. It would be a perfect way to instantly gain acceptance. This would also work around the world as well, where the 1 is still a relatively new model. If they aim to move the coupe upmarket/differentiate it a bit compared to the 1, it plays even better. I see the new coupe being the 2-series without a doubt....

 

[Deutsch]

Do you remember how they never renamed the 3 coupe a 4 series, well they're not planning to do that with the 1 series either.

going w/ the name "2 series" would be a very logical step for BMW in the marketing of this car, it would provide a direct link to the original 2002 that had a serious impact on the BMW enthusiast world, not to mention all the young peole that can't pop $40k on a 3er and would love to own a Bimmer. By no means though do I think this will be a "poser" car for BMW, I thiink the ride and size will be enough to run some away, but for driving enthusiast such as myself that aren't doing hand outs from parents, this would work great.

 

[EnI]

The heritage is one of the advantages BMW have over the Japanese luxury brands (Lexus, Acura, Infiniti). BMW believe true prestige can be gained from heritage only. New prestige - artificial luxury brands are "empty", "without passion".

And BMW are know for inventing sports sedan: 02-series, which matured into 3-series - still the best compact sports sedan. A benchmark for most of the car manufacturers.

So, 02-series have a very special place in BMW history. It was re-invented via 3-series, right now the resurrection is taking place - see HERE, but next year we will witness the rebirth of 02-series - a new 2-series: 2-door sedan-ish coupe & cabrio.

As said many times: the advertising campaign will be based on referring on the old (0)2-series. An instant success. Remember what BMW made out of new MINI? Expect similar from the new 2-series.

There will be 2-series. Coupe & cabrio.
1er will be a hatch only (5 & 3-door).

 

[AdvEvo]

new spy shots 1er cabrio on the nurburgring.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/spyphot...01/bmw/more-bmw-1-series-cabriolet-spy-photos

Can t wait on coupe spy shots.

 

[YoungWarrior]

BMW CSL cars are very imortant to the brands heritage and serve its purpose as halo cars. Just how much bragging rights did BMW fans have when the M3CSL posted a 7:50 'ring time beating a bunch of cars with alot more power.

 

[siko]

Wouldn't be simpler for BMW to stick the E46 M3's engine in the M2? It would be a rocket!

 

[Deutsch]

Wouldn't be simpler for BMW to stick the E46 M3's engine in the M2? It would be a rocket!

That could be a possibility, at the same time it's very unliikely given that BMW is now developing more efficent engines w/ turbo's,DI, and a host of other advances they have made in their drivetrain technology.

 

[AdvEvo]

Yes an M2 with e46 m3 engine 343hp and 1350kg or lighter. Where can i sign.

 

[wltsm]

That could be a possibility, at the same time it's very unliikely given that BMW is now developing more efficent engines w/ turbo's,DI, and a host of other advances they have made in their drivetrain technology.

I doubt that BMW would use a turbo in an M engine, that is where they draw the line! M engines will always be N/A!

 

[AdvEvo]

Turbo is nice but keep that in normal bmw cars.

Let M stick on NA engines. If you buy M you buy something special. And something special is not brutal turbo power.

 

[Deutsch]

I doubt that BMW would use a turbo in an M engine, that is where they draw the line! M engines will always be N/A!

Hint hint, there is a large possibility there will be NO M version of the 2er. Besides that, I would NOT be suprised if M took up BMW's new drivetrain development philosiphy in using forced induction.

 

[Matt]

Hint hint, there is a large possibility there will be NO M version of the 2er. Besides that, I would NOT be suprised if M took up BMW's new drivetrain development philosiphy in using forced induction.

I agree. Look at this: http://www.germancarforum.com/showthread.php?t=1200

 

[warot]

I agree. Look at this: (first let me find it)

Well they almost called the new 3er Coupe the 4er. And that was cancelled because there is too much history. I'm not saying that ///M will never use FI, but I have a feeling that the enthusiasts and purist will want their engines to stay NA.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

Well they almost called the new 3er Coupe the 4er. And that was cancelled because there is too much history. I'm not saying that ///M will never use FI, but I have a feeling that the enthusiasts and purist will want their engines to stay NA.

Well, I also think there should only be NA ///M.
I hope they make an M2, but an 235 turbo is also a must to continue were the 2002 Turbo left off.

 

[AdvEvo]

if i was working at bmw i would do the 1 serie and 2 serie s sporty line up like this.

1 series

130i 272hp di engine. with lsd option.
120i 4cil turbo 285 hp. with lsd option.

2 series coupe

230i 6cil di engine 272hp with lsd option
220i 4cil turbo 285 hp with lsd option
M2 or old e46 m3 engine. or new 3.0 di engine build up to M specs. with 320hp more then 8000 revs on tap.

For me the 120i turbo would not be necesary i rather have NA engines. If i want a turbo i go shop at the jap tin boxes sti or evo s.

I would buy an N/A M2 without hasitation.

I have a m3 e46 right now very nice car very very nice engine. But the downside of the car is the sportiness. The 3 series has grown to much and that means to much weight to carry around. I find the new coupe 3 E90series no car anymore for a sporting agile m version anymore. The new m3 will be more a car on the side to m5 and m6. I really looking forward to a car more on the side at e30 m3 but the e30 m3 with 200 hp is after driving e46 m3 boring related to power.
So with the new m2 they need to go near the power to weight ratio of the outgoing e46 m3. So 320hp would be enough if they could reduce the weight also.

I know a 4cil turbo would be better for handling wise. Just drive a 130i and a 120d back to back then you know what i mean. But i would a sacrifice a little more weight on the front axle and get a high rev 6cil in it. The best bet would be a 2.5 high rev 4 cil atmo with 300 hp but that would possibly be impossible to make in mass production.

I really see potential in an N/A M2 because the new M3 has gone upmarket and will be more expensive than the E46 M3. So there is gap in M version land and it need to be filled in.

Andre dreaming of M2.