VW purchase stake in BMW's CF partner

[south]

I still don't see the point of i.
Okay, build as electric from scratch... Big deal. Okay, CRFP and co, well, that's not something unique, every carmaker is looking into it.

And many carmakers have presented special EV platforms (with batteries on the floor etc).

Nissan or Toyota seem much much more advanced in terms of "mobility concept" than i's totally standard offerings (single-person super narrow cars, new concepts of vehicles..).

I'm sorry, but I don't see what's past this big marketing BS.

The "form factor" of i is totally standard (hood in front of the car, wide two-seats arrangement, standard sizes) so no mobility concept whatsoever here, the "thinking" behind it is the same as every other serious carmaker (electric car bandwagon, CRFP trend)...

I don't see what the fuss is about. I just don't. Those i cars seem totally conventional in term of concept, to my eyes.

It's not like BMW i does things nobody else has ever done before, that's right. But like Tine says, BMW has a massive had start brining BMW i to the market. Remember that the first announcement about project i, the predecessor for BMW i, was exactly three years ago in 2008. BMW has been working on this for three years and that's the thing that's probably scaring the competition the most -- and one reason VW might feel to need to buy into SGL.

They didn't reinvent the wheel, sure, but neither did Peugeot with the particulate filter nor Toyota with their Prius. Yet, both matters showed that doing something innovative first pays off, even if it's nothing 'revolutionary.' Besides, BMW apparently seems to go out of their way to get this right. For example, we know CF passenger cells from supercars, but this something totally unheard of in the price range of the BMW i cars (even for the rather expensive i8). Again, they're not necessarily doing something nobody has ever done before, but they're combining known things/technologies in an extremely smart way, and even risk a first gen i3 not returning any profit for the sake of future models and raising their know how.

On top of all this, creating the BMW i brand is also genius marketing. If done right, everybody and their dog will know that BMW i is the brand for sustainable and green cars from BMW. People will be aware of all the things BMW i stands for. So BMW can use the time the others will need to catch up on getting the technology into production and build the BMW i brand image. By the time others have caught up, people will associate Green cars and clever mobility solutions with BMW i, and it doesn't really matter if others might have the same tech by then. It's been exactly the same with Efficient Dynamics, BMW used the head start they had on these techs to build the brand. Ask people about this, many others might have the same tech in their cars now, but it's still 'Efficient Dynamics' that sticks with people when it comes to reduced consumption.

Finally, about VW buying into SGL, BMW hopefully had thought of others car making raising interest in that company in advance. There won't be any unintentional 'technology transfer' from the JV to VW to fear unless the BMW legal department made a mistake. VW might start a bidding war on SGL to get BMW out of that company, though. I hope we get an update on today's board meeting. Tine, Scott?


Best regards,
south

 

[coolraoul]

It's not like BMW i does things nobody else has ever done before, that's right. But like Tine says, BMW has a massive had start brining BMW i to the market. Remember that the first announcement about project i, the predecessor for BMW i, was exactly three years ago in 2008. BMW has been working on this for three years and that's the thing that's probably scaring the competition the most -- and one reason VW might feel to need to buy into SGL.

They didn't reinvent the wheel, sure, but neither did Peugeot with the particulate filter nor Toyota with their Prius. Yet, both matters showed that doing something innovative first pays off, even if it's nothing 'revolutionary.' Besides, BMW apparently seems to go out of their way to get this right. For example, we know CF passenger cells from supercars, but this something totally unheard of in the price range of the BMW i cars (even for the rather expensive i8). Again, they're not necessarily doing something nobody has ever done before, but they're combining known things/technologies in an extremely smart way, and even risk a first gen i3 not returning any profit for the sake of future models and raising their know how.

On top of all this, creating the BMW i brand is also genius marketing. If done right, everybody and their dog will know that BMW i is the brand for sustainable and green cars from BMW. People will be aware of all the things BMW i stands for. So BMW can use the time the others will need to catch up on getting the technology into production and build the BMW i brand image. By the time others have caught up, people will associate Green cars and clever mobility solutions with BMW i, and it doesn't really matter if others might have the same tech by then. It's been exactly the same with Efficient Dynamics, BMW used the head start they had on these techs to build the brand. Ask people about this, many others might have the same tech in their cars now, but it's still 'Efficient Dynamics' that sticks with people when it comes to reduced consumption.

Finally, about VW buying into SGL, BMW hopefully had thought of others car making raising interest in that company in advance. There won't be any unintentional 'technology transfer' from the JV to VW to fear unless the BMW legal department made a mistake. VW might start a bidding war on SGL to get BMW out of that company, though. I hope we get an update on today's board meeting. Tine, Scott?


Best regards,
south

smart, Peugeot/Citroën/Mitsubishi and Renault already have real-world electric vehicles on offer, Mercedes is making a worldtour with its fuel-cell B-Class and showcasing the soon-to-come electric SLS, while BMWi is still few more than a couple of sketches...

The JV Daimler-Toray has only been established a couple of months after the one between BMW and SGL.

What a headstart indeed. Absolutely impressive. Nobody ever gonna catch that up, that's for sure...

 

[south]

What a headstart indeed. Absolutely impressive.

I'm glad I could convince you.


Best regards,
south

 

[ACE]

Yes, it appears so.

I utterly despise them and their made up brands like Audi, Skoda and Seat

All brands are made up. It's called marketing, you should do some reading about it some time. Don't let your emotions (Brand Loyalty) fool your rational mind.

 

[dalab]

smart, Peugeot/Citroën/Mitsubishi and Renault already have real-world electric vehicles on offer, Mercedes is making a worldtour with its fuel-cell B-Class and showcasing the soon-to-come electric SLS, while BMWi is still few more than a couple of sketches...

The JV Daimler-Toray has only been established a couple of months after the one between BMW and SGL.

What a headstart indeed. Absolutely impressive. Nobody ever gonna catch that up, that's for sure...

The JV Daimler - Toray been stablished at least 8 months minimun, after the one between BMW and SGL.

The importance of these pioneering moves by BMW is immense, as an example when it would have the premium sport compact segment in the 60's (1600 - 2002ti) and then with the 3 series, or super premium compact with the MINI, just think the importance of being a pioneer in these events and as we all followed.

The same is here, BMW is the first manufacturer to venture out and take a chance on small car in carbon fiber, with the vast amount of research and development that this has resulted, not in vain is No. 1 among luxury manufacturers

Mercedes will do so later but with dignity, developed them their own vehicle, not industrial espionage as VAG.

 

[footie]

I don't think there is anything that dramatically different or special with the hybrid technology of the BMW i, I reckon it's solely to do with SGL's input in the project and the possible break-through they have made that has the likes of VW eyeing them up.

 

[coolraoul]

Daimler might have some months delay in terms of the Toray JV, but they already have significant carbon-fiber experience with the SLR and the cooperation with McLaren.

Besides, Daimler has quite a lead in terms of batteries, having pioneered Li-Ion tech, being in several JVs with BYD (as dubious as they seem, they are a very serious battery manufacturer) and Evonik, having a stake in Tesla, and they yet again patented a new technology further improving the Li-Ion technology few days ago.

So I wouldn't say, at all, that BMW has a significant head-start. From what I know, the Mini-e still carries approximatively 7tons of batteries while smart hides them in its microscopic package...

This is a race, and this time the Germans are quite upfront. But only time will tell who has the best formula and has achieve mass-production-status the quickest.


Electric cars are, imo, far from being ready for mass-market yet. It will be extremely interesting to watch how quickly those technologies will be adopted, what compromises the public is ready to make to be cleaner, and if the fuel-cell can replace the batteries as the "energy of the future" for cars...

 

[EnI]

I hope we get an update on today's board meeting. Tine, Scott?

Gosh, I'm not a fly sitting on a wall in the BMW's conference room.

Regarding CF expertise ... Why do you think BMW went back to F1 after so many years? Or why starting cooperation with Oracle Racing (sailing)? It was due to CF expertise! Remember the Z29 Concept car made of CF, by BMW Technik GmbH? It was conceived in 1999. Although BMW showed it years later after being scooped by spy photographers while being tested.

Both BMW / SGL & Daimler / Toray JVs were announced in April 2010 - the one of BMW / SGL two weeks earlier then the other one.

But in March 2009 SKion GmbH, owned by Susanne Klatten - one of the Quandt's kids & major shareholder in BMW - purchased the stake in SGL. And it was clear Klatten is doing in BMW's name, for BMW. Therefore the CF race has begun. The SKion's purchase of SGL share was THE sign the race has started. And everybody woke up. Except VAG I seemed. And because of being late, VAG is now eying SGL, and will surely won the bidding race if started.


And, my dear friends, pleas do not mix apples & oranges. EV cars based on classic platforms are a joke. So are the multi-million $ "production prototypes" driving around as labs on wheels.

I'm sure today every car company is able to design super EV: light, roomy, fast, efficient, good looking etc. Yet such a car would cost zillions of $.

The "secret" is in the CFRP affordable mass production, and in battery management. And BMW seems to be leading the field by a margin.

Yes, the question remains whether this will result in an instant marketing & sales success, or not. Perhaps being the first one doesn't necessarily means being the best one (remember iDrive? Being completely trashed by MMI & Command after their respected introductions.) Or perhaps it will work - like in Prius case. At least for some time ...

As said: nobody is willing to sit & just wait. The risk is too huge.

BMW has done it before: first with Isetta, and later with the "Neue Klasse". When tech is changing, when paradigms are changing - the race for primacy is fierceless & ruthless. As we can see with this VAG move.

And why the outrage? Piech said VAG had informed BMW about the SGL deal. Which is nothing but a lie. Nobody within BMW AG hasn't been informed about VAG's move regarding SGL.

10 little brands????? Little my a**!

VW takes stake in BMW’s carbon fibre partner

By Daniel Schaefer in Geneva

Published: March 1 2011 10:13 | Last updated: March 1 2011 23:40

Volkswagen has taken a minority stake in a carbon-fibre company that has a partnership with BMW, highlighting how such lightweight materials are becoming a battleground for Germany’s carmakers.

Europe’s largest carmaker by sales announced at the Geneva motor show that it had bought an 8.18 per cent stake in SGL Carbon, the German maker of carbon products.

The €140m ($193m) move will be closely watched by BMW and by Susanne Klatten, SGL’s main shareholder whose family is also the premium carmaker’s anchor investor.

Ferdinand Piëch, VW’s chairman, said on the sidelines of the motor show that the stakebuilding would allow the group to gain greater access to lightweight materials without harming BMW.

He said VW, which aims to raise its stake to a maximum of 10 per cent, had informed the premium carmaker and Ms Klatten in advance about its interest in the group.

“BMW has always been a nice competitor for our 10 little brands ... We do not hurt each other so we can well share ownership at SGL,” Mr Piëch said.

However, his words received a cool reception from Skion, Ms Klatten’s investment holding.

Skion said it was watching VW’s move with “vigilance”, adding that it could quickly raise its 22.5 per cent stake to a blocking minority if necessary.

Norbert Reithofer, BMW’s chief executive, denied that VW had informed him in advance. While he refused to comment on the implications of the deal, he said: “We have not been asked by VW if we like this or not.”

SGL two years ago formed a joint venture with the world’s largest premium carmaker by sales for the mass manufacturing of carbon fibres for electric cars.

While carbon fibre is still mainly used in the aerospace industry and for high-end sports and racing cars, it is moving to mass-market premium car producers, mainly because of the need to save weight in electric and hybrid cars.

BMW plans to use carbon-fibre passenger cells for its new BMW i electric sub-brand, which plans to launch a plug-in hybrid model in 2013.

Both Daimler and Audi, the German premium carmakers, have this year formed partnerships with carbon-fibre specialists.

Audi, owned by VW, recently announced a co-operation deal with German engineering conglomerate Voith to build lightweight materials.

Voith also owns a 5 per cent stake in SGL.

Bankers said SGL had attracted interest recently from a series of financial and industrial investors betting that the electrification in the car industry would turn carbon fibre into a mass-manufacturing material.

“An awful lot of financial investors and industrial groups outside the car sector have come to me and said they were interested in taking a stake in SGL in the past few months,” one banker said.

Source: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4ad34d20-43e0-11e0-8f20-00144feab49a.html?ftcamp=rss#axzz1FePjBnIT

 

[Deleted member 25]

Why didn't they invest in this Voith firm ?

 

[EnI]

Why didn't they invest in this Voith firm ?

Because it's much more fun to take on someone else's partner, isn't it? Piech is quite a Joker. Who's the Batman then?

Btw, Voith also has a share in SGL (5.12%), and a Porsche-family member (Oliver Porsche) is a member of Voith's Supervisory board already. I guess they don't need to invest anything there to make them partners. They are already linked.

I wouldn't be surprised to see VAG buying a stake in Toray as well. Just because they can.

 

[HighestOfHigh]

But did BMW also play a dirty game when they got Rolls Royce out of VAG's mouth?

Exactly! I don't know why "some" BMW fans don't realize VAG is looking for Payback.

Run BMW Run!

 

[EnI]

Exactly! I don't know why "some" BMW fans don't realize VAG is looking for Payback.

Not VAG butPiech personally - since he was the VAG CEO at that time, and RR deal was his PERSONAL failure.

Also - it was Piech who plaxed it dirty in the RR deal: BMW have already supply engines & electronics for Silver Seraph & Arnage at that time, and had an oral agreement with Vickers & RR Plc to purchase RR Motros. but then Piech came in with a bunch of money & started the bidding war, and finally offered a magical sum BMW couldn't match, and Vickers couldn't decline.

BMW were lucky since they have an ally in RR Plc which held rights on the Rolls-Royce trademark (name & logo), and got the rights for relatively low sum. Therfore they were able to negotiate with VAG to get RR Motors back but they only managed to get Rolls-Royce, but no Bentley. Also no Crewe factory, no dealership network, no labor force. Just visual design trademarks for RR cars (Greek temple radiator grille & Spirit of Ecstasy), and the RR car names.

BMW were not the "bad guy" in the RR Motors takeover case. But they were bad guys in the Rover case where Honda (already cooperating with Rover) was interested in the company, but it was sold to BMW in the end. In the end Rover takeover turned to be a total fiasco, and BMW proved to be Rover's executor.

 

[footie]

No doubt Piech would have loved to have both Bentley and RR but in the end they got the best profit makers of the two.

 

[dalab]

No doubt Piech would have loved to have both Bentley and RR but in the end they got the best profit makers of the two.

Sorry but this statment is wrong. every rolls royce sold leaves more money than bentleys.
The rolls are more expensive.
Sell more cars does not mean that generate more profit.

 

[martinbo]

Selling more expensive cars doesn't mean more profit either. Just look at a Bugatti Veyron. I don't know for sure but it's quite possible that Bentley through sheer economies of scale and technology sharing is the more profitable brand.

 

[JLBM]

Very poor form on sgl carbon's side. That is simply not ethical.

 

[JLBM]

Are you saying the problem is we haven't experienced the likes of big cities in Asia so can't quite see the benefits of these cars because they don't quite fit into our daily lives as yet?

By the sound of it you feel Asia is the next big market and first to succeed there will capture the biggest percentage of this market for quite a while. I wonder will BMW's i range be as revolutionary as to become the recognised name for such cars in much the same way as we think of a Bic when we think of a ball-point pen or Hoover when we think of a vacuum cleaner.

I don't believe so. BMW I range will be very premium. It may be the first brand to do this properly, but there will be plenty of less expensive competitors from the French, Japanese and Chinese. They will be more like the bic pen, the BMW products will be more like the mont blanc

 

[TheDriver]

I still don't see the point of i.
Okay, build as electric from scratch... Big deal. Okay, CRFP and co, well, that's not something unique, every carmaker is looking into it.

And many carmakers have presented special EV platforms (with batteries on the floor etc).

Nissan or Toyota seem much much more advanced in terms of "mobility concept" than i's totally standard offerings (single-person super narrow cars, new concepts of vehicles..).

I'm sorry, but I don't see what's past this big marketing BS.

The "form factor" of i is totally standard (hood in front of the car, wide two-seats arrangement, standard sizes) so no mobility concept whatsoever here, the "thinking" behind it is the same as every other serious carmaker (electric car bandwagon, CRFP trend)...

I don't see what the fuss is about. I just don't. Those i cars seem totally conventional in term of concept, to my eyes.

I think like me that you haven't fully understood the longterm and dare I say it the bigger picture that EnI is hinting at. These cars are going to still be expensive but that is because they are the pioneers of this development process, probably each and everyone one will lose money but it's future models that we should be looking towards, the 5-10 years down the line. I remember my father always saying something along the lines of what every happens first in America we get over here about 5-10 years later, I think EnI is suggesting that Asia is ahead of even America by a similar margin.

Also the more CF that's used the cheaper the raw materials become so the chances of it reaching your 316i, never mind your 5er and 7er increases ten fold. We use to think that Audi had the jump on the rest with their expertise of ASF technology but by the looks of it BMW will leapfrog them to number one spot as being available to develop the lightest cars.

 

[coolraoul]

I think like me that you haven't fully understood the longterm and dare I say it the bigger picture that EnI is hinting at. These cars are going to still be expensive but that is because they are the pioneers of this development process, probably each and everyone one will lose money but it's future models that we should be looking towards, the 5-10 years down the line. I remember my father always saying something along the lines of what every happens first in America we get over here about 5-10 years later, I think EnI is suggesting that Asia is ahead of even America by a similar margin.

Also the more CF that's used the cheaper the raw materials become so the chances of it reaching your 316i, never mind your 5er and 7er increases ten fold. We use to think that Audi had the jump on the rest with their expertise of ASF technology but by the looks of it BMW will leapfrog them to number one spot as being available to develop the lightest cars.

I know perfectly well that beinig the pioneer is important, and that electric cars won't come out in 5 years as perfect replacements for the combustion engine.

What I don't get, is all the big talk about i being a revolution and all competitors being dead jealous, because many if not all carmakers are looking into similar solutions and as I previously stated, Daimler in particular has the same kind of JV for CRFP production while being ahead ini terms of battery technology. From what I know.

I just don't see what's so revolutionary given that the concept of the i-cars is very standard, and the batery and CRFP technology is being explored by several other carmakers.

And that BMW seems rather late to the game in terms of electric vehicles, compared to smart, Renault, Peugeot/Citroën/Mitsubushi for instance.

 

[TheDriver]

Are you suggesting that with VW's interest in SGL that BMW are milking this added attention to the fully, they are the Marketing kings after all.

I don't know if you are quite right because it's SGL that VW have shown interest in which suggests that it's them that is the prize, maybe they have somehow got the costs of manufacture down well below their rivals.