VW purchase stake in BMW's CF partner

[Sunny]

^ Any sub division of a parent company have to answer back, it's the same for Rolls Royce and Mini. Do you honestly believe M-Division have a bottomless pit of resources and can build anything they desire.... of course not, a profitability case has to be made for everything and in this BMW are no different than VAG.

No one said anything about divisions not having to get permission from the company. And yes Rolls and mini have to get permission from BMW too. And it sucks for them that they have to. But BMW being an independent company doesn't have to. That was the original point. The buck stops with BMW's board of directors. Period. Not so with Audi or any of the subsidiaries of the of VAG empire - the buck stops with VAG board. That is the point - see, one an independent company, the other a vassal. Same applies to Mini and Rolls too.

This is so classical Footie, instead of conceding a point will just go off on some stupid tangent that no one is debating.

 

[EnI]

Mind the Porsche as a car-making company as a whole was bought by VAG, and implemented into the VAG group. And that Porsche wasn't a troubled company offering sub-par products to the brand image. And that the Porsche has been a company with huge know-how, great R&D etc.

It's not like MINI & Rolls-Royce or even Bentley. MINI (under Rover) had been an inactive brand which BMW revived very successfully. While RR & Bentley cars under Vickers' ownership wasn't on par with RR & Bentley brand image - and the company (Rolls-Royce Motors ltd) was deep in trouble, dependent on external partners when it comes to vital parts.

Porsche has been a healthy and active company & brand. And could survive as a master partner - and now they are in slave position within VAG group. OK, not absolutely - Porsche will still be in charge of developing sports cars & big cars. Not bad. But still the development will go in direction to fir well other VAG brands as well. So this won't be 100% Porsche car but also a bit of VW, Audi, Bentley, Lamborghini etc. VW will be in charge of small cars, while Audi is left with SUV / crossover development. OK, everybody is doing what he knows best. But still the decision are made on group level though.

VAG is turning into some sort of socialistic conglomerate: everything is and has to be shared within group, everything belongs to group & not to the individual brand / company, the group makes decisions for all etc ... Very collectivistic approach. Very centralized approach.

 

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

Mind the Porsche as a car-making company as a whole was bought by VAG, and implemented into the VAG group. And that Porsche wasn't a troubled company offering sub-par products to the brand image. And that the Porsche has been a company with huge know-how, great R&D etc.

It's not like MINI & Rolls-Royce or even Bentley. MINI (under Rover) had been an inactive brand which BMW revived very successfully. While RR & Bentley cars under Vickers' ownership wasn't on par with RR & Bentley brand image - and the company (Rolls-Royce Motors ltd) was deep in trouble, dependent on external partners when it comes to vital parts.

Porsche has been a healthy and active company & brand. And could survive as a master partner - and now they are in slave position within VAG group. OK, not absolutely - Porsche will still be in charge of developing sports cars & big cars. Not bad. But still the development will go in direction to fir well other VAG brands as well. So this won't be 100% Porsche car but also a bit of VW, Audi, Bentley, Lamborghini etc. VW will be in charge of small cars, while Audi is left with SUV / crossover development. OK, everybody is doing what he knows best. But still the decision are made on group level though.

VAG is turning into some sort of socialistic conglomerate: everything is and has to be shared within group, everything belongs to group & not to the individual brand / company, the group makes decisions for all etc ... Very collectivistic approach. Very centralized approach.

You call it a 'centralized' approach, I call it a 'controlling' approach. Let each brand put out what they do best without outside interference.

VW - Brand that will bring in VW drivers. Tailored towards young individuals.

Audi - Brand that will help KEEP those young drivers within the VW group. Luxury and pampering cars for those former young individuals that now need to go to business meetings.

Porsche - Brand that will introduce people to the world of performance and help introduce them into the world of Lamborghini.

Lamborghini - Brand that will show what the VAG is made of. Pure, Raw sports cars. Tailored for said former young individuals that have become successful.

Bentley - Brand that will pick up where Audi left off. Former young individuals are now retiring and have had there midlife crisis. Done with sports cars and just want something comfortable to drive in.

In my mind, this is the way it should be.

 

[Deckhook]

You don't buy a hugely successful sportscar manufacturer to stifle they creativity by make them product the cars you think best, that f'ing stupid, you give them the resources to become even better, more successful and more profitable which is exactly what will happen to Porsche, only now other members within the group will benefit from Porsche's expertise.

Whilst I don't agree with any one company should control some many other brands no one can deny that almost all the companies that VAG now control have grown for strength to strength.

 

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

]You don't buy a hugely successful sportscar manufacturer to stifle they creativity[/B] by make them product the cars you think best, that f'ing stupid, you give them the resources to become even better, more successful and more profitable which is exactly what will happen to Porsche, only now other members within the group will benefit from Porsche's expertise.

Whilst I don't agree with any one company should control some many other brands no one can deny that almost all the companies that VAG now control have grown for strength to strength.

That's not possible. You will hinder a company when you buy it out because you think you know what's best for it.VAG thinks they know what is best for Porsche and all the other companies it owns. What VAG says goes, no matter how hard Porsche tries. They no longer have control of their own 'creativity'. This is why BMW>VAG. BMW controls it's own destiny.

 

[Deckhook]

^ Only time will tell who is right and who is wrong.

 

[tristatez28lt1]

The finest yet most shameless way of industrial espionage!

Buying a stake in a company that your rival strategically cooperates with, next putting your own man in the company's supervisory board, and then getting all the info from the management on the company's future business - including the ones concerning your rival.

Bravo VAG! Lowest point of VAG's corporate machinations. Piëch & Winterkorn are far from being gentlemen & fair players.

What's next? VAG buying stakes in Peugeot-Citroen SA & Renault SA to get info what BMW & Daimler are up to?

That's just sick!

It's smart business? The most successful business men were all cut-throat and ruthless when it came to do business. And the few that don't look like they are, have good publicists. Just look at Jobs, Gates, Onassis, Don King, Trump, etc.

 

[Sunny]

This is why BMW>VAG. BMW controls it's own destiny.

Well, I disagree there, VAG being the parent corporation controls it's own destiny too, it is the subsidiaries that don't. That is the con of being part of an umbrella corporation. VAG is going to make decisions that is good for the whole corporation. Most of the time it will also be good for the subsidiaries. But other times, it won't be, but you have no choice but grease up and bend over - like Audi just did when it was relegated to developing just SUVs.

 

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

Well, I disagree there, VAG being the parent corporation controls it's own destiny too, it is the subsidiaries that don't. That is the con of being part of an umbrella corporation. VAG is going to make decisions that is good for the whole corporation. Most of the time it will also be good for the subsidiaries. But other times, it won't be, but you have no choice but grease up and bend over - like Audi just did when it was relegated to developing just SUVs.

Exactly. BMW has free reign over it's products. The only company within the VAG group that can say that is VW. Everyone else has to bend over. Sometimes, I wish all car companies were independent. Of course this wouldn't be plausible as it would limit resources but I wonder what it would be like.

 

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

^ Only time will tell who is right and who is wrong.

Indeed we will, good sir. I always welcome change. If VAG can really offer something extraordinary, count me in. Badges really don't matter to me as it doesn't make my e-wang any bigger. I need to enjoy the drive. Any word on when the new S6 will be coming?

 

[braaf]

The point he's making is Porsche can no longer make the car Porsche wants to. It has to be a car VW wants and approves of. Not Porsche. The ///M Division doesn't have to go and talk to say any parent company. It's directly from BMW. They know what is expected of them from the get-go and they build a car within the guidelines that are given to them.

My personal opinion is that VAG is too big for it's own good and I can see them eventually ending up somewhere like Chrysler,Chevy, and Ford were a year ago.

Thanks Hot ice, that's what I meant to say

 

[Centurion]

VAG are a whole honest corporate umbrella with integrity. They are not doing anything foul. Anyone who wants to read up on foul play should read up on Intel and Coca Cola. That will give you a gruesome insight into why you don't see Pepsi stocked in many corner store or why has a 75-80% market share of the computer CPU market.

 

[Sunny]

The only company within the VAG group that can say that is VW.

Well, technically VW (as in VW passenger cars) is also wholly owned subsidiary of VAG, so they are not independent either. Also Porsche doesn't really come under VAG directly (yet). Porsche Holding SE owns 50.1% of Porsche AG (the company that makes the cars) and 50.7% of VAG. It is Porsche SE that racked up huge debt in order to buy VAG and in turn had to bailed by VAG in return for 49.9% of Porsche AG. They also agreed to merge Porsche SE and VAG before end of 2011 but that fell through cause of lawsuits. I think VAG still has the option to buy rest of Porsche AG, but it still leaves Porsche SE with 50.7% of VAG. Yea, it is a mess. You can read it all here - Porsche Shares Plunge After Volkswagen Merger Fails Over Pending Lawsuits - Bloomberg