Vs Sportauto: BMW M5 vs Audi S6

[Zafiro]

sorry Just Me, but that is complete and utter rubbish... You may be able to pull out 1 magazine in whic h they said X-Drive is better...but I can pul out 30 that says Qattro is better

In your world yes. Besides they tested the latest system of Xdrive. The old xdrive systems were much worse than Quattro. But the new system is real good. Audi cant rely on quattro traditions anymore, thats for sure.

 

[Yperion]

Road and Track magazine comparison 03/2006.The results are:

1 Audi A4 2.0 T Quattro
2 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT spec.B
3 BMW 325xi
4 Lexus IS 250 AWD
5 Mazda Mazda-Speed6
6 Infiniti G35x
7 Volvo S40 T5



A majority of the editors picked the Audi as their winner, and that says a lot about what it's like to drive. And that manner is complete and utter confidence. At all times. It finished second only to the Subaru (by 0.3 sec.) on the autocross, posted the fastest slalom time and tied with the Mazdaspeed6 for second-best skidpad. That it did all this with the third-highest curb weight (3690 lb.) is sheer magic on the part of Audi's engineers.



Handling is normally a BMW forte. But even with an xDrive awd system biased for rear-drive fun (which can steplessly transfer torque 100 percent to the front or rear axle, depending on wheel slip), this was the most un-BMW-like 3 Series we can remember driving. Luckily, a not-so-brilliant 3 Series still manages to shine in this group. It struggled most on tight back roads (especially uphill sections), where its combination of extra heft and minimal power made it feel unresponsive. Drop throttle did little to squelch understeer, and possibly more than any other car in the test the BMW needed corners taken in a slow-in, fast-out manner. It finished a lowly sixth of the group through the slalom but took top honors at the skidpad; it managed a respectable third in the autocross.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=3280

I guess i don't need to say anything more.

PS. The next A4, A5 ect. will use a more advanced version of the quattro system (Torsen C instead of B) that is currently used only by RS4 and Q7 so it's still too little too late for xDrive.

 

[Zafiro]

First of all thats not a wintertest.
The swedish wintertest tested how far they can go through snow, also they meassured the fastest laptime on a ice-road. Nothing similar to the test above.

BTW I believe E90 had two different xdrive versions, the later is improved. The swedish carmag tested xdrive a few months earlier and than they complained, later they tested it again with another bimmer and thry said the xdrive on the later test was better.

Yannis, find me another wintertest with the latest system and then we can talk.

 

[GTA45E]

I guess i don't need to say anything more.

How entertaining can you get. Two mods at each others throats over which system is better. I havn`t herd the stats on either, maby BMW needs to hookup the M5 with their new system so we could see which is better. I`d personally would bank on the Audi system.

 

[yaubrandon]

Probably like 20% too, maybe a little less, 15%?
RS6 was more expensive than M last time here, and I am not even mentioning the 480 hp (!!!!) RS6+ Avant
Last gen the diffence between M5 and RS6 grew to around 80 hp, but it didn't hurt BMW at all.

anyone can figure out the last gen Audi can't compare with BMW in terms of handling. but in the new gen Audi's/VW's, handling is considered a very important element of the cars. so don't compare using the past gen Audis and BMWs. btw, i think the last gen RS6 could beat M5 at Hock.

 

[Zafiro]

anyone can figure out the last gen Audi can't compare with BMW in terms of handling. but in the new gen Audi's/VW's, handling is considered a very important element of the cars. so don't compare using the past gen Audis and BMWs. btw, i think the last gen RS6 could beat M5 at Hock.

here is the list of all cars tested on hockenheim by sportauto

http://germancarforum.com/showthread.php?t=3358

 

[Yperion]

How entertaining can you get. Two mods at each others throats over which system is better. I havn`t herd the stats on either, maby BMW needs to hookup the M5 with their new system so we could see which is better. I`d personally would bank on the Audi system.

Don't get the wrong picture. While me and Andreas (aka just_me) don't agree on this doesn't mean anything. We still agree on millions of other things and we are still very good friends and partners.

 

[Zafiro]

Don't get the wrong picture. While me and Andreas (aka just_me) don't agree on this doesn't mean anything. We still agree on millions of other things and we are still very good friends and partners.

we friends?, Yesterday Yannis told me one night I will find a horse head in my bed what a nice friend

 

[yaubrandon]

here is the list of all cars tested on hockenheim by sportauto

http://germancarforum.com/showthread.php?t=3358

thx.

Audi RS6 (450bhp)-1.17,6
BMW M5 E39 (400bhp)-1.17,6

RS6 which has 50bhp more power and Quaattro system, but unable to beat M5.

well, many magazines have a feedback about last gen RS6, saying that it is the king of straight line. accurate steering, but lacks passion. good for Autobahn perhaps. but i don't think the new gen Audi's are satisfied to be kings of Autobahn. i admit that the last gen Audi's aren't as good as BMWs, but not the new gen ones.

 

[Gene]

thx.

Audi RS6 (450bhp)-1.17,6
BMW M5 E39 (400bhp)-1.17,6

RS6 which has 50bhp more power and Quaattro system, but unable to beat M5.

well, many magazines have a feedback about last gen RS6, saying that it is the king of straight line. accurate steering, but lacks passion. good for Autobahn perhaps. but i don't think the new gen Audi's are satisfied to be kings of Autobahn. i admit that the last gen Audi's aren't as good as BMWs, but not the new gen ones.

I agree with the statement that the RS Audi's are really stepping up. Although its hard to compare the new generation RS Audi's to the new generation M's at this point. For example the new generation RS4 competes with the older M3 with the newer M3 yet to come out.

Similarly, the new M5 and M6 doesn't have a new generation RS6 model to compete with yet. We'll see

 

[yaubrandon]

I agree with the statement that the RS Audi's are really stepping up. Although its hard to compare the new generation RS Audi's to the new generation M's at this point. For example the new generation RS4 competes with the older M3 with the newer M3 yet to come out.

Similarly, the new M5 and M6 doesn't have a new generation RS6 model to compete with yet. We'll see

i know Audi is able to beat BMW coz its models are released later. however, Audi's really quite ahead of BMW, though having higher prices and are released later.

 

[wltsm]

Where are Audis ahead of BMWs?

If you are talking about the RS4 v M3, please remember there is a new M3 right around the corner!

 

[yaubrandon]

Where are Audis ahead of BMWs?

If you are talking about the RS4 v M3, please remember there is a new M3 right around the corner!

for example, the last gen RS4 having 380bhp can also compete with E46 M3, not to mention 420bhp V8 RS4.

 

[Zafiro]

for example, the last gen RS4 having 380bhp can also compete with E46 M3, not to mention 420bhp V8 RS4.

the RS4 with 380hp is the first RS car from Audi. BMW have had many M generations before RS4. Audi joined the party much later.

 

[MikeJ]

the RS4 with 380hp is the first RS car from Audi. BMW have had many M generations before RS4. Audi joined the party much later.

Nope, the RS2, which was introduced in 1994, was the first RS car.

 

[Zafiro]

Nope, the RS2, which was introduced in 1994, was the first RS car.

yes you are right but still they joined much later

Anyway, didnt Porsche help Audi with this one. The RS4 is all done by Audi themselves?

 

[Sunny]

The 'old' M3 CSL is faster than the new RS4 around a track. And it is the CSL that is price wise comparable to the RS4 not the the vanilla M3. But it is really a pointless discussion and neither camp is going to convince the other side.

 

[EnI]

As a BMW "fanatic" I'm a bit concerned by AUDI's new path - it is heading directly towards BMW.

Audi cars are very good in many aspects, but what they lack is the handling crisp due to platform they are using (weight distribution!). The new platform sounds very promising - eliminating Audi's weakest point: crispy & responsive handling / steering. I'm eager to see the new platform paired with 40:60 quattro, DCT, & RS engine & setting.
Also eager to see if the comfort (suspension) will be improved with a new platform - especially with goodies like air suspension or magnetic ride dumper control.

Audi's image in Europe & Asia is gaining credibility with the speed of light. Audi is having a momentum. The only weakest point are USA where Audi's image lags behind BMW signifacntly.

Mind that Audi has one significant advantage over BMW: utility - since Audi cars are bigger & offering more (laguage) space. BMW will always put excelent driving dynamics ahead of practical asspects of a car: that making BMW vehicles more "mobile communication statements" than "utilitarian vehicles", and therefore more niche vehicles than all-round mainstream-ish Audis.

In the future the main differentiation between Audi & BMW will be: DESIGN & BRAND NAME IMAGE (mainly based on old fame).

Mind that Audi is attacking BMW's driving dynamics, while BMW are taking on Audi's quattro. New gen. of xDrive (now coming in SAC X6 - most thought it would come in E70 X5 since it was tested in E70 prototypes - but that were only early tests - debut will be in X6). of MUCH better than current xDrive (which is deffinitely not bad): targeting new rear-biased quattro right in the heart. Also BMW are improving the quality issues (fit & finish, up-scale materials etc), and refining the repelling design features.

So, the only main differation will be the brand image (based on old fame) & the design: BMW with teasing ultra dynamic & crisp design full of temperamant emotions, while Audi design will be less "to-your-face" but more refined & possesing "classic beauty". But both being very modern & elegant.

And with these qualities (almost BMW-like driving dynamics, sporty spirit, good ride comfort, excelent fit & finish, being more practical & utilitarian, offering hi-tech features, cool & calmed design) I'm affraid Audi vehicles will be more appealing ...

But still: BMW brand image is very powerful, and BMW will not rest ... the very important niche vehicles are coming (X6 & V5 - and also repositioned core models: like more coupeish next gen 5er) which will either make BMW brand stronger, or hurt it. Kind a repositoning of model line. But BMW are confident. But so are Audi ...

But as history shows us: its much easier to come to the top position than retaining it (e.g. MB case!). So, BMW: be affraid!




PS: this is a pure internal rumour, but ideas are pouring in BMW departments: there is an idea to offer some M models with off-switchable xDrive: enabling / disabling xDrive with a push off button.

Mind that BMW are considering to reposition the M: making it more mainstream in the future to gain more sales & to fight the rising competition. The line-up expansion with significant part sharing will happen - this is for sure. And the AWD idea is a part of making M more appealing to broarder customer base. But it is only an idea. But in either case M CSL / CS line will be the "true M": brutal power, lightweight, raw racer, RWD only - a true car for true aficionados: moving BMW again where it belongs: on top.

 

[Gene]

i know Audi is able to beat BMW coz its models are released later. however, Audi's really quite ahead of BMW, though having higher prices and are released later.

Your comment is very much debatable, and many people would question your comment that Audi are quite ahead of BMW in their RS cars. In my opinion you are wrong. Many of the RS cars that have come out so far, have been able to beat BMW's in a straight line, but lack in driving dynamics compared to their BMW counterparts. Take for example the previous RS6 and the E39 M5. The only RS model that has been able to really take on a counterpart M model based on driving dynamics is the RS4, and still the M3 CS can hold its own against it in the 'fun' department (e.g. Evo Magazine review, Fifth gear review)

You say that:

i know Audi is able to beat BMW coz its models are released later.

This is not true at all in my opinion. Yes Audi 'should' be able to beat BMW because their models are released very late into the model lifecycle as they have a M car to benchmark on and try beat ('should' being the operative word). Similarly BMW M's should be able to beat the Audi when their next generation. In fact because of the timing of the release of the models I feel that Audi is most disadvantaged. Take for example the current RS4 and next M3 (to be released within the year). Based on the reviews of the 335i, the should 'beat' the RS4 based on speed and driving dynamics. This means that the RS4 won't have been the 'best' in its category for very long, i.e. 2 years. Whereas the new M3 will be the best until the next RS4 comes out, which would be almost 4-5 years down the track. This of course excludes the C AMG models and assumes that the new M3 will be killer.

however, Audi's really quite ahead of BMW, though having higher prices and are released later.

Again I disagree with this comment completely. If you love your driving, there has never been a RS model, aside from the RS4, that has been able to beat an M car in driving dynamics, based on the anecdotal stories and reviews.

I know my comments are biased towards BMW, as I am pro-BMW, based on the fact that I've driven them and they have top-notch precision, handling and driving dynamics in ALL their cars.

Just to end off, several of the Audi fans say that Quattro will never be beaten by xDrive because Audi have the experience and know-how of 4wd for several more years the BMW. Then using that logic, BMW has been developing M cars for several more years than Audi have been developing RS cars, so therefore no RS should ever beat an M car, Right?

 

[EnI]

Road and Track magazine comparison 03/2006.The results are:

1 Audi A4 2.0 T Quattro
2 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT spec.B
3 BMW 325xi
4 Lexus IS 250 AWD
5 Mazda Mazda-Speed6
6 Infiniti G35x
7 Volvo S40 T5

I guess i don't need to say anything more.

Yannis, it's very unfair to make conclusions based on one specific article! Many - especially German - magazines have tested xDrive vs. Quattro and were very impressed by xDrive capabilities - despite all mags being quattro fans. xDrive offered better driving dynamics, while quattro still won in the extreme offroad capabilities. So ... Let's wait to see xDrive vs. rear biased quattro: E70 X5 vs. Q7 will be the first test. And do not forget Dynamic xDrive is coming in 2008 - first premiered in X6 nad then creeping into other BMW models.

Also:

the R&T test is not a good reference for AWD test. The comparisons are a bit biased. A4 used S-line suspension settings & Dunlop Sport summer performance tires, while e.g. 325xi was using standard package and stock M+S runflat tires. The video is saying the tire grip was not optimal and resulting in more understeer then some other cars.

They also bitch 325xi for being anemic. Geez! They were testing it against 4 turbo charged torque-monster cars, and a car with 3.5L engine. Only IS250 was in the same league.

Btw, did you read this:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=3280&page_number=11

A good result despit lacking power / torque, having standard (non-sport) suspension, and non-performance tires!

xDrive is a very capable AWD system! Audi, be affraid!