Vs Sportauto: BMW 335i vs Audi S4 (W211 E63 AMG vs RS6)

[Zafiro]

Where is BMW Performance "standard production" for a 335i? No details on pricing or when the kit becomes available were included in the press release at Geneva. I haven't seen any further info. Where can I buy one?

The package is out there now, latest Autobild tested 335i Convertible with PP kit (326hp). I also seen the price in a different thread, unfotunaly dont remember where. But the PP is available

PS
PP have been available for my babybimmer since a year back.

 

[klier]

^^ Aren't you considering a nice short shifter or big brakes for your 1er Andreas???? Would be awesome I think...

Where is BMW Performance "standard production" for a 335i? No details on pricing or when the kit becomes available were included in the press release at Geneva. I haven't seen any further info. Where can I buy one?

Everywhere.

Yes, otherwise the BMW will lose, as it has done in every test done so far. I understand that such results are simply not allowed in Klier's BMW obsessed world but I haven't seen any tests with the performance kit 335i (probably 'cos you can't actually buy one yet!) vs S4. Are there any? 20hp and still no LSD is hardly going to make that much difference, imo. But I am willing to wait and see.

Yes, otherwise the BMW will loose. The BMW is a regular BMW, not a special car like the S4. If we want BMW to win everything, we will have to test the 335i against a regular A4 3.2 V6.
For a real test, a 326 hp M sport 335i with performance parts and DCT is much more fair competition, but saying something mindblowingly crazy like that makes me obsessed, I understand

 

[Karabiner98k]

335i & S4

I think it is better not to compare 335i with S4 at all because 335i is a SERIES VERSION of BMW not M VERSION.if you look at older generations of S4,it has always been compared with the M3.
The reason why some magazines compare 335i with some some S or RS or AMG series of AUDI or MERCEDES is that 335i is a really potent car that can even challenge bigger competitors like S4 and etc.
For example SLK350 with 306hp is the right competitor for 335i.
Therefore even if 335i had a package and 326hp engine still would be better not be compared with S4 unless it had been tuned by M-DIVISION.

 

[Sunny]

Autobild compared 135i with PP vs normal 135i (which comes M sport package as standard) and PP equipped 135 was 1.6 secs faster. I don't think the 135 PP car even had the 326HP engine tune option.

If 3er gets a similar benefit from the PP, it would be either faster than S4 going by this sport auto test or as fast if going by Aussie test.

Anyway both are fantastic cars and for once there is a genuine choice when it comes to a european sports sedan in the $40k - 45k price range. I think Audi made a smart decision to drop the S4 to compete against the 335 instead of pricing it against the M3 but with inferior performance. This could also mean a more reasonably priced RS4.

 

[Mr Robert]

Anyway both are fantastic cars and for once there is a genuine choice when it comes to a european sports sedan in the $40k - 45k price range. I think Audi made a smart decision to drop the S4 to compete against the 335 instead of pricing it against the M3 but with inferior performance. This could also mean a more reasonably priced RS4.

I think you are right. Here in Sweden, the three cars are separated by about €9,000 either way (that is about €12,500 more for the S4 and the same for the M3 over the S4). Audi has understood that cars have to be very cheap in the US in order for them to make it. Hence, we should get very reasonable pricing for the RS4 in the US and a dead expensive one here.

 

[lambornima]

lol, RS6 "limo" audi in both cases for me please! its a shame they dont bring the RS6 to north america.

 

[EnI]

The only advantage of S4 is that it's offered as standard ... while in the 335i you have to opt for Performance Pats & Performance Kit separately.

So, if eg. 335i Sport was a standard model (335i incl. PP & PK) - would that be better?

Mind 335i is a regular car - not even M-pack does much.
To make the car (specification & price wise) closer to S4 (which is not a regular model) - 335i has to have PP & PK on board. And the DCT gearbox.

And since cars with PP & PK are not sitting on dealer lots magazines are not able to get them for tests - so they test regular 335i against S4 (which can be get from a lot).

But ... BMW are thinking very seriously to offer SuperSports (eg. 335i with PP + PK) models as standard ... to directly rival S models by Audi.

 

[Ozzie Bone]

I thought a summary would be useful.

So far in every magazine test the stock version of the S4 has bested every stock version of the 335i including the RWD, xDrive and M-sport. Although BMW apparently offers original performance enhancement (as distinct from after market tuning) such a version has not yet been independently tested against the S4 – more about this later.

Track times definitely favour the S4 – see further www.fastestlaps.com. I assume these tests were using manual versions of both cars and that the S4 was equipped with LSD.

B8 S4

Hockenheim short - 1:16.7 (Sport Auto)
Autozeitung - 1:41.8

E90 335i

Hockenheim short - 1:18 (Sport Auto – 05.09.07)
Hockenheim short - 1:17 (Sport Auto – ?basis of this thread)

E92 335i

Hockenheim short - 1:17.8 (Sport Auto – 19.02.07)
Autozeitung - 1:45.8

E92 335i DSK

Hockenheim short - 1:17.9 (Sport Auto – 13.11.08)

What is odd is the difference in track times for the 335i between September 2007 and the test the subject of this thread – what was the date of that? The difference is a whole second. Has somebody got the times wrong? Has the E90 335i power been boosted since the original test? Given the more recent results for the E92 a power boost to the E90 does not sound right. Some other trickery?

In addition we have the MOTOR test in Australia using B8 S4 s-tronic and E90 335i step-tronic transmissions over Wakefield Park race track - result:

B8 S4 (1.09.7)
335i M-sport (1.11.3)
M3 M-DCT sedan (1:09) by way of comparison

Subject to deciphering the anomalous 335i track time it appears the only hope the E90 has of catching the S4 is through BMW performance enhancement. Until such time that an enhanced E90 is independently tested against an S4 any projections are pure speculation. Boosting the power of the E90 will not necessarily make it more competitive with the S4.

Given BMW's very long domination in this market I don'texpect they will rest on thier laurels. Very much looking forward to BMW’s response!

 

[Mr Robert]

But ... BMW are thinking very seriously to offer SuperSports (eg. 335i with PP + PK) models as standard ... to directly rival S models by Audi.

Could be problematic in the US as the 335i and S4 cost the same there. In most European market there is a difference of about €9,000, making it possible to add Performance Parts and selling the car at the same price as the S4.

 

[ACE]

That EUR 9,000 difference is between a standard 335i E90, without M sport pack and many other options that come as standard on the S4.

In the UK, the higher spec S4 costs LESS than a E90 335i M Sport. I don't know exactly what an E90 335xi M sport with PP and other options that are standard on the S4 would cost in each country but that is the car that is closest to what the S4 is offering imo and I suspect that such a 335i will be more expensive than the S4 in most countries.

The S4 also offered options like the sport diff, EDC, DCT (cheaper than the BMW steptronic btw) and supersports seats that were not offered on the 335i. The S4 is also bigger more spacious car than the E90, an important consideration since I bought the S4 as my family car.

The 335i with 306hp and 400Nm that I drove on a track was struggling to put the power/torque down at full throttle even on a dry, smooth track. The 335i needs a LSD and it will need it even more if you want to boost the power above 306hp.

The S4 is simply a better car than the 335i imo. I chose between the 335i and S4 (to replace the Q7 family car that I hated), I did a lot of research on these two models to come to this conclusion! I would say that my S4 is slightly faster than the E46 M3 that I owned before my Porsche. With the information that has become available since I made my S4 purchase I am even more sure about that conclusion. You may think you know better, good luck to you, enjoy your 335i then, but until BMW improve the 335i (which I am sure they will) my vote (like that of many respected journalists) goes to the S4.

 

[Mr Robert]

In the UK, the higher spec S4 costs LESS than a E90 335i M Sport. I don't know exactly what an E90 335xi M sport with PP and other options that are standard on the S4 would cost in each country but that is the car that is closest to what the S4 is offering imo and I suspect that such a 335i will be more expensive than the S4 in most countries.

Different markets, differents options and different possibilities.

The 335iX can't really be compared with the S4 as you can't even opt for the sports suspension on that (it is a whole differnet thing that I personally would never pick a 4WD version of a car over a RWD version). You are stuck with the comfort oriented option, whereas the Performance option is the one closest to the S4.

We are stuck in this discussion as the cars are speced and built differntly. The S4 is built (and in many cases priced) like a car sitting right between the 335i and the M3.

 

[Ozzie Bone]

I suggest that one thread of discussion is still worthwhile - the widely differing results for 335i times at Hockenheim.

SportAuto appears to have reported an 1:18.1 lap time for the BMW 335i Performance version on or about 18/08/2009. Is this correct? See website - sportauto-online.de. Regretably I can't read German.

If so the more expensive Performance version is much slower than the standard 335i sedan and coupes.

Also the 335i lap time of 1:17.0 recorded against the S4 (15/04/2009) is a whole second faster than the lap time recorded against the Japanese Turbos on 30 August 2007 - but apparently the same model?

I know that lap times vary but such huge variations would usually have an explanation such as track condition, tyres etc.

 

[Mr Robert]

I know that lap times vary but such huge variations would usually have an explanation such as track condition, tyres etc.

1 second is not a huge difference given that we do not know the conditions. We would have known for sure if the cars were tested neck to neck...

I can't recall that 335i Performance test.

 

[ACE]

SportAuto appears to have reported an 1:18.1 lap time for the BMW 335i Performance version on or about 18/08/2009. Is this correct? See website - sportauto-online.de. Regretably I can't read German.

If so the more expensive Performance version is much slower than the standard 335i sedan and coupes.

Also the 335i lap time of 1:17.0 recorded against the S4 (15/04/2009) is a whole second faster than the lap time recorded against the Japanese Turbos on 30 August 2007 - but apparently the same model?

I know that lap times vary but such huge variations would usually have an explanation such as track condition, tyres etc.

Just read the sportauto German article (http://www.sportauto-online.de/einz...ichen-tuning-alternative-ab-werk-1380684.html) on the Performance Package 335i E90. Performance Package costs Eur 16,500. Total cost as tested Eur 75,458, for comparison a base M3 E90 costs from Eur 66,000. So much for the theory that the 335i PP competes with the B8 S4 on price in Germany.

Test results were 0.3 secs improvement in 0-100km/h over the standard manual 335i E90 (5.5 vs 5.8). Lap time was indeed no faster at 1:18.1. Article mentions the 1:17.9 was a 335i E92 with DCT.

 

[Mr Robert]

Performance Package 335i E90. Performance Package costs Eur 16,500. Total cost as tested Eur 75,458, for comparison a base M3 E90 costs from Eur 66,000. So much for the theory that the 335i PP competes with the B8 S4 on price in Germany.

That must have been an about as fully equipped 335i as you can possibly get. The Performance parts will be about €10k if you want engine upgrade, suspension and brakes (this is the nice part, you can get the parts you want and leave the rest behind).

The 335i is about €9k cheaper than the S4 in Germany.

 

[Zafiro]

Performance Package 335i E90. Performance Package costs Eur 16,500. Total cost as tested Eur 75,458, for comparison a base M3 E90 costs from Eur 66,000. So much for the theory that the 335i PP competes with the B8 S4 on price in Germany.

But the beauty with performance package, is that you dont have to buy the complete package, you can choose the parts you want. Maybe you only want sportsuspension, brakes, sportexhaust and the Recaro seats then you dont have to pay 16.500 Euro extra. The price depends on what you pick.

PS Autobild tested a standard 135i vs a 135i with the complete performance package (no engine update) on a track. The time difference were 1.8 seconds.

 

[ACE]

That must have been an about as fully equipped 335i as you can possibly get. The Performance parts will be about €10k if you want engine upgrade, suspension and brakes (this is the nice part, you can get the parts you want and leave the rest behind).

The 335i is about €9k cheaper than the S4 in Germany.

Let's assume your €10k quote is correct. A 335i with those PP options is more expensive than an S4, does not have as much standard kit and is no faster than a standard 335i (according to sportauto at least), i.e. still slower than an S4 in every kind of performance test. Depreciation on added options is worse than standard spec options come trade-in time so total cost of ownership is even more skewed. So even in Germany the S4 is better value than a 335i with PP bits, imo. In the UK the value proposition is even more heavily weighted in the Audi's favour. Of course, some people (no names mentioned) place a huge premium on the propeller badge (congratulations BMW Marketing), so they will always go for the bimmer.

 

[Zafiro]

A 335i with those PP.. .. and is no faster than a standard 335i (according to sportauto at least).

I've been defending S4 for some time, now its time to defend 335i
As you see in my previous post Autobild did a head to head comparison with a standard 135i vs 135i with PP. A head to head comparison is more relevant than the test from Sportauto since it wasnt a head to head comparison. So using the sportauto time and say 335i PP is no faster than a 335i doesnt feel right.



We can only guess but until we seen a head to head comparison with S4 vs 335i PP we should be careful with what we are saying who knows, maybe 335i PP is quicker (or slower).

 

[Mr Robert]

Let's assume your €10k quote is correct. A 335i with those PP options is more expensive than an S4, does not have as much standard kit and is no faster than a standard 335i (according to sportauto at least).

They would be about the same and I don't know exactly what eq is standard on both, that would, however, be quite easy for someone of check.

If you take a 335i and run on a track and then hook it up with the engine, suspension and brakes upgrades, my prediction is that it will be faster on a track. I have never seen a comparison regarding the 335i like the one made with the 135i, where the modifications made both a niticeable and measurable difference to the better.

 

[Ozzie Bone]

Common BMW fans you have to do better than subjective opinions. like .. I think (more likely ..I hope). You need to at objectively refute the Sportauto piece on the 335i Performance if you want to keep this thread alive. Sorry but the 135 references just don't cut it!

I expect you will agree that even a 335i Performance model is unlikely to match or let alone beat an Alpina B3.

The Alpina (with 360 HP and LSD) was pitted head-to-head with the B8S4 s-tronic and 335i step-tronic - see source below:

Google Translate=

Although the B3 is certainly quicker off the mark it still could not beat the S4 on the Hockenheim. S4 (1.19.7), B3 (1.19.7) and 335i (1.21.1).

Alpina's are not available in Oz but I expect you pay a hefty premium over the S4.