Vs Sportauto: BMW 335i vs Audi S4 (W211 E63 AMG vs RS6)

[Zafiro]

Adding the B3 doesnt cut it either. The suspension been modified and its actually more comfortable than a regular 335i. The reasons why Alpina beat the 335i is because of engine and LSD. Adding a B3 isnt relevant to determine if 335i PP is faster or not. A x35i with PP is faster than a standard x35i and thats a fact and Autobild proved it with their head to head comparison.

 

[Mr Robert]

Common BMW fans you have to do better than subjective opinions. like .. I think (more likely ..I hope). You need to at objectively refute the Sportauto piece on the 335i Performance if you want to keep this thread alive. Sorry but the 135 references just don't cut it!

I expect you will agree that even a 335i Performance model is unlikely to match or let alone beat an Alpina B3.

Head to head is always good show differences. One does not have to be a BMW fan to understand that, even an Audi fan should be able do see that. We have to say that we "think" the Performarnce parts would do this and that, because there are no tests like the one with the 135i.

All we have in terms of figures are one isolated test where it is shown that the performance parts makes the car slower. I guess that was not the intention of BMW. That seems strange. Don't you think? The test has to count as an anomaly.
Why does the reference to the 135i not cut it? It is the only real measure of what the Performance parts actually adds.

Furthermore, we are not saying that the Performance parts will make the 335i a superior car, only that the difference is much smaller, only an LSD left to give the S4 a slight edge.

 

[Ozzie Bone]

I am astonished that the 335i Performance was slower than a standard 335i - but it has been published and until we see something to the contrary that is the best source to work with.

The 135i doesn't cut it because it is a 135i - that my friends is a very long stretch to support an argument that it applies equally to the 335i particularly when we have published evidence to the contrary.

I understand from previous posts that the Peformance enhancement takes the 335i to around 326HP. HP increase alone does not ensure a better result and I think this is evidenced from the 335i Performance published results. I think that what does make a huge difference is a HP increase and LSD as per the B3 - and that is why the B3 is relevant.

The only missing element is the AWD of the S4 which apparently permits better use of its power. So I think it is not only LSD which gives the S4 and advantage but also its combination with the AWD.

 

[Zafiro]

I am astonished that the 335i Performance was slower than a standard 335i - but it has been published and until we see something to the contrary that is the best source to work with.

The 135i doesn't cut it because it is a 135i - that my friends is a very long stretch to support an argument that it applies equally to the 335i particularly when we have published evidence to the contrary.

I disagree with you 100% but you are hard man to convince. Oh well, im letting you off the hook. BUT, in a head to head comparison between 135i and 135i PP the PP was quicker but then you say a 335i and a 335i PP, the PP would not improve the car. I just think thats a weird opinion.

BTW The test with 135i PP and standard 135i, both had 306 hp. so the 135i PP didnt have the extra power in this test. Also the test you provided (B3 vs 335i vs S4) the 335i in that test did not have 326hp, it was the standard engine with "only" 306hp.

 

[Mr Robert]

I am astonished that the 335i Performance was slower than a standard 335i - but it has been published and until we see something to the contrary that is the best source to work with.

You see, nothing strange with disregarding the result. I disregard many things that are published. There are many reasons for this. One being journalists. Another being common sense.

The 135i doesn't cut it because it is a 135i - that my friends is a very long stretch to support an argument that it applies equally to the 335i particularly when we have published evidence to the contrary.

We are not, my friend, saying that it applies the same, but the same things are done with the 135i and the 335i... in one case it, evidently, makes the car faster and in the other it seems like the car becomes slower. Very strange.

The only missing element is the AWD of the S4 which apparently permits better use of its power. So I think it is not only LSD which gives the S4 and advantage but also its combination with the AWD.

The iX model can't even have the M-sport suspension. A sporty model from BMW should never be 4WD. That is like saying, that the S4 should be 2WD to be comparable. An LSD would work wonders on a car like the 335i. In the test you refer to, it made the soft B3 as fast as the S4 on track. However, I guess the S4 was more fun than the B3...

 

[ACE]

You see, nothing strange with disregarding the result. I disregard many things that are published. There are many reasons for this. One being journalists. Another being common sense.

... another being cognitive dissonance perhaps?

An LSD would work wonders on a car like the 335i. In the test you refer to, it made the soft B3 as fast as the S4 on track.

Why do you refer to the B3 as "soft"? If a 335i with sports suspension, 360hp and an LSD is "soft" then how would you describe a 335i with PP, no LSD and only 326hp or even 306hp? "Flaccid"? "Limp"? You lost me there. Are you speaking a version of English that is directly translated from Swedish again?

 

[Mr Robert]

... another being cognitive dissonance perhaps?

Haha... No. There is nothing wrong with a critical mind. I have been trying for a couple of pages to show how incomplete the facts are, but some just don't want to know of it.

Why do you refer to the B3 as "soft"? If a 335i with sports suspension, 360hp and an LSD is "soft" then how would you describe a 335i with PP, no LSD and only 326hp or even 306hp? "Flaccid"? "Limp"? You lost me there. Are you speaking a version of English that is directly translated from Swedish again?

It's suspension is soft compared to the Performance suspension. Simple as that, I don't think that was a case of me not writing understandable English - but I could be wrong.The Alpinas are generally comfort oriented.

 

[Mr Robert]

I think I have to sum up my view on this matter, as I now feel that we have come as far as we can, due to lack of information.

The S4 seems to be a superb car, even a great driver car. In some markets it is also very competitively priced. It has all the bits the standard 335i lacks, at least to be meaningfully compared to the S4. BMW has the Performance line that somehow works as a means to come closer to the specifications of the S4. I do not think the former will be faster than the S4, for that to happen it would need an LSD, and as that will not happen, well, I would just like to know how much difference the PP really does.

I'm a bit surprized that BMW has not promoted the Performance line more, e.g. by supplying equally equipped 335i cars with and without the Performance parts. They seem to work wonders on the 135i... why does BMW not want to sell the bits?

 

[klier]

^ LSD is not needed to be faster, count on that!

 

[Mr Robert]

Why?

 

[NarutoRamen]

^ LSD is not needed to be faster, count on that!

As far as I know, LSD in pretty much any application will make the car faster around a track. Of course, this is a subject for Martinbo.

Hurry, someone turn on the "M" symbol so Martinbo-man can show up and help us out.

 

[Ozzie Bone]

I'm a bit surprized that BMW has not promoted the Performance line more, e.g. by supplying equally equipped 335i cars with and without the Performance parts. They seem to work wonders on the 135i... why does BMW not want to sell the bits?

What I find very curious is the apparent lack of any useful information provided by BMW - why would anyone want to spend any money (let alone the significant figures quoted) on Performance enhancement without knowing how, and by how much, the cost will increase/improve the performance of their 335i vehicle.

 

[Mr Robert]

What I find very curious is the apparent lack of any useful information provided by BMW - why would anyone want to spend any money (let alone the significant figures quoted) on Performance enhancement without knowing how, and by how much, the cost will increase/improve the performance of their 335i vehicle.

I know! It is really strange. But on the other hand, BMW might think that this is for the real enthusiasts only and, as we all know, enhusiasts are generally more informed than the dealer network anyway...

I went down that path with the MINI (they have the same programe as Performance called John Cooper Works) and ordered a John Cooper Works suspension kit... and I love it! In that case, I was lucky enough to find a MINI representative that actually knew about the parts. Regarding MINI, these parts are not available when ordering (here in Sweden) the car, not even the MINI JCW, but must be installed at the dealers on delivery. Also strange.

 

[NarutoRamen]

Regarding MINI, these parts are not available when ordering (here in Sweden) the car, not even the MINI JCW, but must be installed at the dealers on delivery. Also strange.

Not strange, just a strategy to rape you for more money.

 

[Mr Robert]

Not strange, just a strategy to rape you for more money.

But I would have had to pay for the parts anyway. But the dealers might want a bit for the labour... good point. However, I still think this should be an option for the JCW models as this suspension is quite a bit better than the Sport suspension.

 

[NarutoRamen]

But I would have had to pay for the parts anyway. But the dealers might want a bit for the labour... good point. However, I still think this should be an option for the JCW models as this suspension is quite a bit better than the Sport suspension.

Well you would think that JCW car would come with the F__king suspension and you wouldn't have to order it.

 

[Zafiro]

I hate to bring this topic up again but in latest Autobild there is a comparison between Audi S5 and 335i Convertible with powerkit (326hp/450nm).

Meassured times:

Audi /BMW
0-100km/h: 5.6 / 5.5 seconds
0-200km/h: 20.6 / 19.9 seconds.

 

[BlaZain]

I think I have to sum up my view on this matter, as I now feel that we have come as far as we can, due to lack of information.

The S4 seems to be a superb car, even a great driver car. In some markets it is also very competitively priced. It has all the bits the standard 335i lacks, at least to be meaningfully compared to the S4. BMW has the Performance line that somehow works as a means to come closer to the specifications of the S4. I do not think the former will be faster than the S4, for that to happen it would need an LSD, and as that will not happen, well, I would just like to know how much difference the PP really does.

I'm a bit surprized that BMW has not promoted the Performance line more, e.g. by supplying equally equipped 335i cars with and without the Performance parts. They seem to work wonders on the 135i... why does BMW not want to sell the bits?

Nicely put sir,

At least here in the States Audi are positioning the S4 as a 335xi competitor, in fact a few months before the S4's recent release here, BMW actually made a pre-emptive competitive move by introducing the M-Sport package on the 335xi. Which to me signaled that even BMW themselves see the S4 as a direct competitor to the 335xi. In return the base price of the S4 was reduced substantially by approximately $9,000 over the previous version in order to clearly differentiate it as NOT an M3 competitor and by removing the A4 3.2 variant from the US line to make way for the S4.

The fact that people, especially BMW owners insist that the S4 is still a M3 competitor is testament to Audi's marketing strategy and the characteristics of the S4. Being in the market to replace my sixth BMW (a '06 E90 330i Sport), I test drove fully loaded versions of both the 335xi and the Audi S4 fortunately the only option missing on the Audi being the sport differential to make it an even match.

In terms of price point their is little to differentiate these two cars, with the Audi's $2,000 difference being well accounted for by a superior B&O sound system, side assist etc etc.

Although on a dealer test drive you cannot push either car to the limit as the road test drivers can, so all I can attest to is the daily day driving experience. I never thought I would say this but the S4 is a far far superior machine to the 335xi...period - it has really made me question my loyalty to the BMW brand as that would be the only reason in my mind to upgrade to a 335xi with M-Sport Package. Now thats something i thought i would never say after years of evangelizing my personal opinion of BMW's superiority over all who compete in this segment.

Well done Audi on putting that ? mark in my head........

 

[ACE]

I hate to bring this topic up again but in latest Autobild there is a comparison between Audi S5 and 335i Convertible with powerkit (326hp/450nm).

Meassured times:

Audi /BMW
0-100km/h: 5.6 / 5.5 seconds
0-200km/h: 20.6 / 19.9 seconds.

When did BMW fans become more interested in straight line acceleration than lap times? Or did you "miss" the lap times?

Lap times
1:18.0 / 1:18.82

 

[klier]

I hate to bring this topic up again but in latest Autobild there is a comparison between Audi S5 and 335i Convertible with powerkit (326hp/450nm).

Meassured times:

Audi /BMW
0-100km/h: 5.6 / 5.5 seconds
0-200km/h: 20.6 / 19.9 seconds.

S5 non cabrio????