M3/M4 (SportAuto) And the M3 GTS Nurburgring lap time is....

[footie]

...and I'm just saying that the CSL performed very consistently compared to the contemporary Porsche 911 Turbo. Just saying.

I don't know if anyone else really do run and report Nurburgring times like SA.

But are the performances of these two cars that similar?

Yes if you solely look at the lap times of these different tracks but it's quite the opposite if you solely look at the acceleration times.

0 - 100km/h : 4.8s vs 4.0s
0 - 200km/h : 16.7s vs 13.7s
Quater Mile : 12.968s vs 11.9s

These are a huge difference and show that technically the CSL is a far superior handling car than the 996 turbo, but in my comparison the two cars are evenly matched in acceleration so chances are their handling ability is evenly matched as well. Do you now see my logic and why I question your choice of comparison.

 

[Mr Robert]

I think there are very few instances when you do 0-200 on a racetrack.

 

[footie]

I think there are very few instances when you do 0-200 on a racetrack.

That is my whole point, the ring is probably one of the few places where that statement is exception. I bet there is places on the ring where the 996 turbo is considerably quicker and at points on the track is reaching speeds in excess of 15~20mph over what the CSL will be doing at the same point, it makes one hell of a difference. So what you will be seeing is a bungee effect, where the turbo pulls well ahead on the straights only to lose it all again in the corners. This can't be happening when compared to the Cayman because their respective acceleration figures are so evenly matched and that is why the Cayman as an example makes for a much better comparison.

 

[Mr Robert]

So, where are the facts to back it?

 

[Mr Robert]

I mean, there must be some notes for the laps - there usually are...

 

[footie]

I mean, there must be some notes for the laps - there usually are...

I did download the CSL lap from SA but it's poor quality and a very file so couldn't see speeds or cornering Gs. But regarding that 15-20mph reference, what I am meaning is that the turbo will be reaching peak speeds long before the CSL will and the acceleration data backs this up. Likewise the data also shows that the Cayman and it are near enough identical, right up to 125mph and probably even higher.

 

[Guibo]

footie:
I don't think we can conclude too much by lap times that are set so many years apart. These tracks, and the 'Ring in particular, will have surface variations through the years due to repaving. As Chris Harris noted in his comments about 'Ring lap times, splitting hairs over 2 seconds difference is next to meaningless:
"I think they often say far more about the condition of the circuit and the size of the driver's sexual organs (one can't say balls: lest we should forget, Sabine doesn't have testicles) than they do the vehicle in question. I have raced there seven times this year, and on days that seemed climatically identical but were months apart, cars have seen up to a five second discrepancy in lap time. Inluding ours."

As for the CSL, wasn't it also freakishly fast on TopGear's track in very, very damp conditions despite the Cup tires?
It's entirely possible the CSL got very great conditions in its supertest. It's entirely possible the GTS got something less than that for its supertest. With its adjustable suspension, it's also possible the GTS was set up to the preferences of its test driver; we see even in Formula One that gaps can exist even between teammates in what should be identical cars. There are way too many driver/car/track variable to conclude that the CSL was cheated up, as it seems to be your implication.

Regarding the ridiculous pricing on the GTS, it's not like they're selling thousands upon thousands of them. Nor did Porsche try to sell thousands of Sport Classics. If there's a market for ultra-limited specials with people more than willing to pay for them (and it seems that there is), I don't see what the problem is. Isn't the GTS already sold out?

 

[Mr Robert]

Likewise the data also shows that the Cayman and it are near enough identical, right up to 125mph and probably even higher.

But, as the case with the CSL and the 911 Turbo shows, that is irrelevant data.

 

[footie]

Guibo,

You are quite right the ring did under go some resurfacing which I might add usually improved the times done by cars tested previously, which would suggest that the GTS is in fact slower than the CSL time. Now if you guys are confident in the CSL time then I will stop trying to convince you with the rather odd results that shout out to me.

 

[Mr Robert]

Again, you are just guessing, right?

 

[footie]

Again, you are just guessing, right?

No, not at all. This has definitely been proven that the latest track is quicker.

 

[Guibo]

No, not at all. This has definitely been proven that the latest track is quicker.

Could you elaborate on that?

If you think the CSL was cheated up, keep in mind that Autocar tested a UK-spec CSL to 60 mph in 4.8 and 100 mph in 10.9. This is not much different from the supertested CSL's 0-62 mph in 4.8 and 0-99 in 10.8. I'm not sure about Sport Auto, but Autocar tests with a passenger, as they explain in their test of the Lotus Elise 1.6 S.

 

[Mr Robert]

He thinks the CSL was a ringer. Howerver, there is nothing that points towards that being the case. At least nothing has been presented here, but personal views.

 

[Zafiro]

When M3 CSL was tested in Sportauto I had a discussion with racing driver that done lots of laps around N-ring.
CLS had a topspeedlimit and could only reach around 255km/h thanks to the limited topspeed. If it was removed another 2 seconds could be shaved of the laptime according to him. Meaning M3 CLS would be capable of 7.48 min.

 

[Mr Robert]

Haha, Andreas just confused the CLS and the CSL... again!

But, that is a good point, no lap is perfect. 2 seconds, on the other hand, is completely irrelevant.

 

[Sunny]

No, not at all. This has definitely been proven that the latest track is quicker.

How was it proven? Can you present the proof here? Oh, and since when has this "latest track" been around or is all this more of your "" assertions? lol, that was cheesy.

 

[footie]

He thinks the CSL was a ringer. Howerver, there is nothing that points towards that being the case. At least nothing has been presented here, but personal views.

No not a ringer, only that this time was a one off never to be repeated. Cars tested by Sportauto on the Ring that all post near enough identical times at the CSL (i.e. around the 7:47~7:53) almost always post significantly better times else where. So what does this mean for the CSL ring time, personally I believe that time was a freak, not the car itself but solely the time was a perfect lap where everything clicked. If someone came but to me and told me that someone else tested it at the ring and got a 7:57 lap then I would reckon that time is probably the more realistic and typical marker for the car's genuine ability.

Remember how many times it have discussed that test drivers have produced laps that are comfortably quicker than anyone else by the tune of 7~10 seconds, so why could it not be possible that this lap by the CSL fall into that category?

If you can entertain that notion then the time by the GTS becomes a bit less of a disappointment.

 

[Guibo]

No not a ringer, only that this time was a one off never to be repeated. Cars tested by Sportauto on the Ring that all post near enough identical times at the CSL (i.e. around the 7:47~7:53) almost always post significantly better times else where. So what does this mean for the CSL ring time, personally I believe that time was a freak, not the car itself but solely the time was a perfect lap where everything clicked. If someone came but to me and told me that someone else tested it at the ring and got a 7:57 lap then I would reckon that time is probably the more realistic and typical marker for the car's genuine ability.

Wouldn't a car's genuine ability best be shown on a perfect track with perfect conditions? After all, the more realistic and typical way a car is driven on the 'Ring, by a customer, would likely be with traffic. Yet Sport Auto closes down the track to all traffic when conducting the supertest. Ie., they have already taken a crucial first step in eliminating one of the many variables that go to effect a lap.

You still haven't made the case that the track was for sure faster at the time of the CSL's test. BTW, the M3 CSL in that Autocar test was faster on the road course than the 360 Challenge Stradale and the 996 GT3 in the same group comparo.

Then there's this:
Nissan GT-R Ring time-7.29min...

 

[Zafiro]

LoL footie. Member 7:53 RS6 owned you in that thread Your anti-bmw-campaign goes a couple of years back, still haven't changed. .

 

[footie]

^ If you believe the 7:50 time for the CSL is typical then find me anyone that repeated it, plus if you do, well then you all have to conclude that BMW have failed on an epic scale with the GTS. Sorry but I don't believe that because the stats and times else where suggest it's much superior than the CSL.