Sport Auto - Nordschleife laptimes
- Thread starter Zafiro
- Start date
F40 LeMans
Turbo Tüftler
This is a typical example of the Von Saurma's commitment on the NRing compared, in this case, with Kaufmann lap record for that period (2001). Both drivers at the wheel of the Gemballa GTR600:
F40 LeMans
Turbo Tüftler
This was the occasion when Autocar UK magazine organized a day at the NRing with the Focus and the Murcièlago. The Lambo result was 7 min 43.2 secs, when Sportauto published a 7.50 min with the same car:
These are just examples!
These are just examples!
F40 LeMans
Turbo Tüftler
The very fun thing is that SportAuto published a list of their times to try an idea of the car development during the years. Here you are the times list of the Porsche 911 Turbo:
Porsche 993 Turbo: 8.12 min
Porsche 996 Turbo: 7.56 min
Porsche 997 Turbo: 7.52 min
Below, the Japan video when Mr. Kurosawa (in art "Gan San") clocked a 8.08 min (even improvable!!) around the track with a older Porsche 964 Turbo II (with just 320 HP), with no electronics and 17" wheels and tires.
This example should make us to reflect on the performance level for the list around the Nordschleife times, starting from 25/30 years old cars to today.
RESPECT for Von Saurma, but their times seems just to be misleading the limit of commitment, at the end.
Porsche 993 Turbo: 8.12 min
Porsche 996 Turbo: 7.56 min
Porsche 997 Turbo: 7.52 min
Below, the Japan video when Mr. Kurosawa (in art "Gan San") clocked a 8.08 min (even improvable!!) around the track with a older Porsche 964 Turbo II (with just 320 HP), with no electronics and 17" wheels and tires.
This example should make us to reflect on the performance level for the list around the Nordschleife times, starting from 25/30 years old cars to today.
RESPECT for Von Saurma, but their times seems just to be misleading the limit of commitment, at the end.
F40 LeMans
Turbo Tüftler
The last, then I stop my bla bla bla... In 1991 Jaguar Sport sent a team of people to find the extreme limit of the XJ220 during the development. They spent a lot of time with John Nielsen at the wheel. They found the best time in 7.46 min on the full lap (20.8 kms). So it will be a 7.39 min for our list, because of the start/finish portion excluded, all of that in 1991, with a giant-car, with old tires!!
Sportauto, with limited laps, found just a 8.04 min with the Lamborghini Diablo GT, 9 years later.
Sportauto, with limited laps, found just a 8.04 min with the Lamborghini Diablo GT, 9 years later.
F40 LeMans
Turbo Tüftler
It was funny to see for long that people (maybe me too..) compared the Nissan GT-R with the 997 Turbos, looking at these lap times provided by SportAuto or the Porsche official ones with the official ones provided by Nissan, differences of over 20 seconds were mentioned between them but it was simply like talk about apple with oranges because of the different method, setting, lenght of the sessions and the commitment to find the lap time.
I'm just to say this, because IF an old Porsche 964 Turbo was so fast with the Japanese at the wheel, we just have to believe that newer Porsches, Ferraris or Lambos (etc etc..) with better technical characteristics MUST NECESSARILY to be faster on their higher limits than the times achieved on this list.
Maybe Porsche sometimes was incriminate to be not as fast by people, sometimes derided, these last years, but maybe no one has never been willing to try their limits one time for all, and even the factory maybe has never been interested with intensively fast sessions and enough commitment for it.
Concerning the supercars, IF Mr. Basseng during the 3 days of Evo magazine test with the five private supercars take us an IDEA of their limits (yes, just an idea because the lap sessions was anyway limited), we must say, considering tires development during the years and looking at the XJ220 at its limit, that OFTEN these last era supercars like Pagani Zondas or Porsche Carrera GTs (etc etc..) seems to be no so far from the older era ones, from decades.
At the same time the development and technology went ahead as well as materials but if tollerances in lap times by drivers and commitment (taking into account that Horst Von Saurma is an experienced driver) give us a McLaren 650S Spider on the same lap times than the Jag XJ220 about 25 years ago, this means that margins, for what we're talking about, were, are and remain really very tight.
I'm just to say this, because IF an old Porsche 964 Turbo was so fast with the Japanese at the wheel, we just have to believe that newer Porsches, Ferraris or Lambos (etc etc..) with better technical characteristics MUST NECESSARILY to be faster on their higher limits than the times achieved on this list.
Maybe Porsche sometimes was incriminate to be not as fast by people, sometimes derided, these last years, but maybe no one has never been willing to try their limits one time for all, and even the factory maybe has never been interested with intensively fast sessions and enough commitment for it.
Concerning the supercars, IF Mr. Basseng during the 3 days of Evo magazine test with the five private supercars take us an IDEA of their limits (yes, just an idea because the lap sessions was anyway limited), we must say, considering tires development during the years and looking at the XJ220 at its limit, that OFTEN these last era supercars like Pagani Zondas or Porsche Carrera GTs (etc etc..) seems to be no so far from the older era ones, from decades.
At the same time the development and technology went ahead as well as materials but if tollerances in lap times by drivers and commitment (taking into account that Horst Von Saurma is an experienced driver) give us a McLaren 650S Spider on the same lap times than the Jag XJ220 about 25 years ago, this means that margins, for what we're talking about, were, are and remain really very tight.
F40 LeMans
Turbo Tüftler
Here an other meter of comparison about limit. Horst Von Saurma tested the Ferrari 550 Maranello many years ago.
Result 8.07 min on the Nordschleife on the 20.6 kms track/average 152 kph
Here the result of Schumacher driving a 550 Maranello around the Nordschleife published by Quattroruote many years ago.
Result 7.57 min on the 20.8 kms track/average 157 kph
This means a difference of about 16-17 seconds per lap between the two drivers because of the start/finish portion of the track excluded! So the time could be about 7.50 min to compare to the list.
Result 8.07 min on the Nordschleife on the 20.6 kms track/average 152 kph
Here the result of Schumacher driving a 550 Maranello around the Nordschleife published by Quattroruote many years ago.
Result 7.57 min on the 20.8 kms track/average 157 kph
This means a difference of about 16-17 seconds per lap between the two drivers because of the start/finish portion of the track excluded! So the time could be about 7.50 min to compare to the list.
Attachments
tristatez28lt1
Tire Trailblazer
Gebhart is an excellent driver. He was the only one who drove the LaFerrari to the limit at Fiorano. I'm happy for the change but yes, the Super test times will not be apples to apples anymore.
DeDe
Subscriber
Sadly no.
Gebhart has only a few NBR-laps yet (new León Cupra, Lotus Exige S, Focus ST, Astra OPC, Mégane RS and Golf GTi Mk7). His laptime with the OPC and the GTi are not comparable with von Saurma's, because of the heavy traffic at the Ring on the testday.
Impressive driving IMO:
F40 LeMans
Turbo Tüftler
If you are not close to the limit, it is apple with oranges in any case.
Zafiro
Supreme Roadmaster
Say what you want but different driver and its pretty pointless to compare with other cars from the supertest in the past. Don't mix factory times with sportauto times.
tristatez28lt1
Tire Trailblazer
Gebhardt is one of the best (if not the best) magazine drivers out there hands down. He has raced the 24h at the NRing multiple times.
Just take a look at this video and compare it to the other magazine drivers. Gebhardt is the only one that makes the LaFerrari work.
Just take a look at this video and compare it to the other magazine drivers. Gebhardt is the only one that makes the LaFerrari work.
F40 LeMans
Turbo Tüftler
But I also agree with this.
If these threads are mine, you can delete those. I thought they were helpful..
Mafalda
Stuttgart Specialist
F40LM is tryng to say if HvS is "fast" or not...
Mr Robert
Kraftwagen König
If these threads are mine, you can delete those. I thought they were helpful..
That's ok. My point is that the first post in this thread was made 10 years ago. If you want to contest the content, do so, but not here.
OK?
All questions on this will be taken on PM only.
MaxMcQueen
Sunday Driver
The very fun thing is that SportAuto published a list of their times to try an idea of the car development during the years. Here you are the times list of the Porsche 911 Turbo:
Porsche 993 Turbo: 8.12 min
Porsche 996 Turbo: 7.56 min
Porsche 997 Turbo: 7.52 min
How is possible that Horst Von Saurma did 7.56 with the 996 Turbo? I know that official time of that car was 8 min dead!
Similar threads
- Poll
- Deleted member 1071
- Internal Combustion
